12GA FH(From He!!)

[hubel458]

Being some guns need to much work
to fire bmg primers, it easier to
do the following with adapter bushings.
Here is picture of cases for primer
comparisons.1st is regular bmg
primer. 2nd is adapted to a shotgun primer.
3rd is adapted to large rifle primer.
Of the 2 adaptations, large rifle is
easier to do, just ream out pocket, thread in adapter, but adapting shotgun primer
you have to deepen the original primer
pocket a little, then thread and screw in
a bushing.These two primers give about
100 fps less than bmg primer.Ed.

[hubel458]

Testing RL-25 in Savage, with long case--Got 730 gr
hardened cast slug to 2400 plus with 300 gr RL-25.
Full load. Bottom of cases don't need sizing.

Got 600 gr to 3250, 14,000 ft lbs.Ball powder load.Ed

[hubel458]

We are having a group buy of 1000 gr soft jacketed
bullets for 12ga from Hawk. $2.10 each.Contact
me for details.Need order of 1000 total for them to
make dies and start.Got commitment for 400
already.Let me know if interested.We are getting
a 1887 12ga lever gun to test our cases in.Ed.

[hubel458]

We got recoil now-Got a 1050 gr
Bridger over 2200 fps in the Savage.
I took the hollow base 750 gr Bridgers
made for me, and wedged in .500 caliber
slugs(I took out of 12ga sabot)in the base.
Added 300 gr. I was going to melt lead and put in,
but this was easier about 5 seconds,
after 15 seconds shortening nose on grinder
of .500 slug.Ed

[hubel458]

We get questions about recoil.
My Savage is a pussycat being heavy
relative to the loads...Now Rob's gets exciting...
Rob shot a few 1000 grain Bridgers at 3250 fps
and he said he couldn't go any higher as recoil
was "severe". His Borchardt is 24 lbs, and can take
any pressure you could load for it and still
hang on. Cartridges of this size really gets
the juices flowing at over 23,000 ft lbs..Ed

[sniperVLS]

23,000 ft lbs, holy poop!

[hubel458]

We got 1887 12ga levergun here to test. Has 2 & 3/4
inch chamber and we will test with our cases cut back and
with Rocky Mtn cases.Here is pic.Neat gun.Ed

[hubel458]

I got Rocky Mtn turned 12ga cases, and am
developing loads. They are 2 7/8 inches
long are for use in NEF and shortened
in 1887. These cases have shotgun
primers. Now these cases with shotgun primers and the two cases of ours we put small primers in don't fire the slow rifle powder loads
reliably,like cases with bmg primers.
Our testing is with 600 hardened Dixie slugs.
So I have and am testing slow shotgun powder and fast rifle.I tested 5 shotgun powders and
the primers fires then ok but the quick peak pressure when loads increased to get velocity
wanted in NEF caused too much case expansion just ahead of the base.Cases ejected ok but
that expansion and resizing will ruin cases
in a couple shots.These cases have a real thick base, and are machined to glass smooth finish.Nice cases.
I now testing AA1680 Ball and it looks good.
Have got loads up to 105 gr with 2 wads in
the Rocky Mtn case, and only .002 expansion
of case ahead of base. Will chrono next and
expect it to get velocity we want in NEF.
Nice thing about this testing is that same loads will work in shortened 87 case by just
using less wad column.Ed

[hubel458]

Got a bunch of testing in the 3 inch NEF done so
I just got the NEF chambered for long case. And remember it
has beefed up hammer for bmg primers used in our case.
Got 2500 fps with 600 gr slug, cases eject out real easy,
8300 ft lbs from an NEF with 24 inch barrel.If you set up
NEF to use regular primers adapted to our case or
have Rocky Mtn make a long case you can do it without
a lot of work on the hammer and springs. Just use a
flake shotgun powder as a starter powder above the
primer, which how 700 NE and others are loaded.
Use 10 gr of flake and cut regular load 40 gr and
work up if pressures allow.Ed.

[hubel458]

We tested Rocky Mtn and Plastic cases with regular primers
and have to use fast shotgun powder as a starter powder
with slower powders.Testing RE-7 and RE-15, the
Re-15 is better with less case expansion.
Results of RE-15 testing in plastic cases.
600 gr hardened Dixie slug and 10gr
of Blue dot starter powder in both lengths.
In Nef, 3 inch case is about 2.6 crimped,
and 120 gr RE-15 max load. In 1887, 2.75 inch
cases are about 2.35 crimped, 110 gr RE-15
max load. In 2.75 case thats all it will
hold,with card wad, in longer make up space with wads.The reason I'm checking plastic is so many shotgun reloading guys want more power for big game, and they are set up to
load plastic. With starter powder- a caution.
You must put starter in keeping case level,and the powder put in on top, must be put in slow
so as not to push it away from primer.
Greg  clued me in on another powder that may do the job without starter powder
and be slow enough to get velocities up
without to much pressure. It's IMR SR-4759.
Will have some in couple days.I made contact
to get some of these loads pressure tested,
to check my pressure calculations..Ed.

[hubel458]

Been testing IMR-4759. No ignition problems.
Ignition is instant with regular primers.
Don't need Blue Dot starter powder,
like we had to do with RE-7 and RE-15
for good reliable ignition.We did 4759 in
plastic cases first.600 gr slug. I got a
nice working roll crimper attachment
for drill press for crimping slugs.
That sure makes it easy, and perfect crimp.
In 2 & 3/4 plastic cases with loaded
length of about 2.35 inches got to 80gr.
That's max as you must leave room for
about 3/8 wads or cushion wad. Some cases
may only hold 75 grains max due to
the case construction.Powder is less dense
than RE-15. 1650 plus fps in 24 inch barrel.
In 3 inch cases, loaded length about 2.6
inches, got to 95 grs max, 1800 plus fps.
Some cases may only hold 90 gr due to
case construction. Cushion is
a half inch felt wad or equivalent.
Both lengths start down and go up
if pressures allow. 60 gr short case,70 long.
This powder being faster than RE-15 you must
have a little cushion in the way of felt wads
or plastic cushion wads.With slower RE-15
a card wad works ok as powder started slower.
The powder burning must build pressure
to open crimp without a to high pressure spike.
This bulky powder with reliable ignition
is a winner.Then we tested 3" Rocky Mtn brass
cases, Got max load of 105 gr, and 1900 plus
fps. In few weeks will get the 4759 and RE-15
loads pressure tested.Ed

[hubel458]

Now these loads are for only heavy barreled
steel action guns like the NEF Ultra 12,
or like my Savage with heavy barrel added.
I am getting heavy barrel on the 87 and
it will be long.There are some turn bolt
locking lug pumpguns that would work
with heavy barrels.There is a large
12ga Tula bolt action, but it's not imported.
This week if weather allows(no rain)
I will be firing first test loads of my
700HE long belted case.Ed.

[hubel458]

Found an O/U that would handle the 4759 3"
loads. It is the Zoli Z-Sport. Expensive,
all alloy steel construction, tested to
about 100k. That's not a missprint.Their
site shows testing at the Italian proof house
of 8000 bar.That's 7-8 times regular shotgun
working loads.Pic of action below. It handling that extreme pressure, means that other quality
O/U like Ruger may handle 4759 loads.Ed

 

[hubel458]

I get questions about whether the IMR 4759
loads aren't to high pressure.Even for NEF.
Well in Nef the REM factory Buckhammer
slug load, expands the base of the case
more than my 90gr, 4759 load. And I get
more speed, in the same kind of
Rem case.And pressure testing will tell us
for sure what we have wrought..Ed.

[hubel458]

Hot Damn- Test Results of 4 plastic cases.
Rem high base 3" case, with 600 gr
Dixie hardened slug. Roll crimped with
crimper in drill press. All 4 loaded with
90 gr of 4759. We have a winner.
Average velocity of 4 -- 1938 fps
Average pressure of 4 -- 14, 575 psi.
tested with transducer test ing setup,
in 30 inch barrel,In my 24" NEF I got 1800+.
Cases fell out of his test chamber like they did out of
my NEF.And with some cases I can get in 95gr,
that I figured with my math would
have 15k psi.So my math and developement is
OK.And 4800 ft lbs, thats neat with plastic.
Tom says this load will do in any gun that handles
the 2 oz factory magnum goose loads
that test about 13,600 to 14,000.And 4759
will give slower time to peak pressure, thus
will be easier on cases than magnum goose loads
or the hot factory Buckhamer slug loads
I fired, that expanded cases as much or more
than our 4759 loads.Ed

[hubel458]

Buckhammer 3 "factory loads are 15k psi.
A 2.75 inch case with 80 gr of 4759, a thin card wad,
a 3/8 cushion lubed felt wad, when crimped is about
2.4 inches long, with 600gr Dixie slug. Based on
pressures recorded in previous post for 3 inch case
and 90gr of 4759, they will run about 13,400 psi,
and work through modern guns.Another load tested with
same bullet, 65gr of 4759, tested at same place
was 11,800 psi and 1640 fps. So you don't have
to put in my max loads, but go down a
little and use in modern guns that
are lighter than NEF so they don't kick so bad.But yet
you can get fairly good energy levels for big game, 3300
to 4000 ft lbs of energy.Ed

[hubel458]

Some research. Anyone with a Mauser converted
to 12ga shotgun can fire our 4759 loads.
One was the GEHA, other REMO. The locking lug for bolt is the rear safety lug and if you wanted an extra lug do an Ed on the bolt
handle base to make contact between bolt handle and bolt handle recess.They are not long enough
for our full length case, but came with 2 3/4"
chamber and magazine.Were 2 shot large ring
converted military mausers.Studying this gun lead me to the idea that a fancy 12ga with 3" chamber could be made by the same thing that Germans did to the Mauser to make GEHA. Just use
a S&L, Colt Sauer, etc, with rear locking lugs.
Grind out inside diameter of action from rear reciever forward so 12ga case will feed, Rear of bolt will still center ok as lugs and metal
are there. The silver solder combination guide extension to support 12ga case on the left side
of bolt, and put extractor on right side.
Like a Sako or whatever.Face off the recess on front off bolt flat, Put in 12ga barrel with chamfers to clear
extractor.A 788 Rem
may work, at least with a 2.75" case.
For repeater action, Open mag
well to hold a single stack of 1 or 2
12ga cases.Fancy gunwrighters badmouthed
the GEHA, but geese hunters just loved them,
as they handled heavy loads fine. Ed.

[hubel458]

I have also found that the rear locking lug
idea will work with an Enfield, and it would
long enough for our long case with little
work. Work long case as singleshot.
Work as single stack repeater with 3" 12ga.
The bolt handle base would be one lug, and is quite large, which would be stronger than
goose guns built same way.The
left locking lug woud get a bite out on
its end if front was bored out to .900,
tp allow feeding of 12ga case.
But I found a way to add extra lug in the back by opening sight recess that is in rear bridge
down through to bolt raceway, mill groove on left for lug to turn into that
opening and mill square recess into bolt and add lug on left.Result 2.5 lugs, with enough
strength to hold 30k plus loads easily.
Ream out front of action. Barrel threads are
as big as Savage, little more than Mauser.
Face off front of bolt flat.Add pin in ejector
cutout to support case opposite extractor.
The original lugs will guide for feeding.
Screw in heavy 12ga rifled barrel.Ed

[hubel458]

We are workong to scale up a nice style
falling block for our big case.
Here is picture of top part of the
first scale-up model, next to smaller
Wickliffe. It has 12GA FH round in feed
trough. It is aluminum just for a model.
It will handle 12GA FH, 700HE, 700NE, 600NE,
etc. Bottom of block is flat to set on
mill table to do the machining.Next machining
will be the hole and slot down through the
action for breech block and hammer to
slide up and down in.Its taken awhile to
get some tooling.I had none when we set up
vertical mill, and have to get more.The
action model also will be narrowed up when
finished, and contoured to look as good
as the Wickcliffe.Ed.

[hubel458]

Tested the Wickcliffe with 12ga FH case
in a temperary chamber, just primer, to see if
hammer with beefed up spring would fire
bmg primers.I scalloped out the back
of the action so 12ga cases would feed
into the action and temp chamber
They fired ok. But the extra stiff spring
makes it hard to cock. We will have to work
on that.The original Wickcliffe
action that we want to scale up is tall
enough so that when breech block is
lowered the block clears the bottom
a 12ga rim when cases slide out of chamber.
So in the scale up we need to just add a
a little width for wider breech block,
and the bigger barrel thread, and keep the
sides thick for strength.Ed

[hubel458]

Fired couple 3.5" cases with 90gr
4759 and 460 grains of buckshot,
14 number 1 buckshot.Fired in nef,
pattern huge due to rifling, even with
shotcup. They were going 2000 fps plus,
and went through 1/8 steel on end of
stand. Ignition perfect, extracted easy.
In smoothbore be a real hairy load.
With three 3.5" plastic cases with
100gr 4759, 600gr slug. Used .135 card wad,
a 1/2" and 1/4" felt wads. 1900+ fps
in 24" NEF barrel, same low pressure as
the 3" cases we pressure tested. I have NEF
chamber lengthened for our longer
brass case so it does 3 & 3.5" also. A nice
 long barrel we'd have 2050 plus.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is pictures of the breech, lever,
linkage, etc, set up on a block to
get the geometry for the scaleup model working
ok.And setup measurements to make the breech
hole in the action, in right place.Also used
this model to get hammer and trigger set
up to ride on the breech block. With
a strong hammer and trigger in the right
place in the guard.In the pics above you see the pin the
lever pivots on. The actions being bigger
will be wider than the levers;So the space on the
pivot will be taken up by the Ruger
style extractor on the left side and a spacer
on the right side. Spacer also acts as a
breech block stop at the bottom of the
breech travel.So to get block stopped at
right position for the diameter of the case
and feed trough, we adjust spacer size.
Ruger extractors from GP changed
a little bit will do.Ed.

[slave]

Now thats BIG

[hubel458]

Here is sectioned action with parts in.
Original action that had defects
that I sectioned down the middle..I
ground out the top to allow case
to set higher, representing a
the taller action that we will
have due to larger diameter cases.
That lever in the picture is the
lever we will use with longer stroke.
Also in the action layout is the
breechblock, hammer, trigger with a
12GA FH in front, all in to check layout.
This lever looks to be easier to fit
and shape to bigger action and stock,
with a good pistolgrip to handle recoil.
Lever shape fits where trigger is better.Ed

[hubel458]

I will be posting more research on this thread
about other powders in 12ga plastic cases,about the
12GA FH loads, about scaled up falling blocks, my 700HE long
belted case, and the 28GA FH.Here is picture of
some other cartridges I have with some of mine.
1st= 408CT, 2nd- T-rex necked to 416- 3rd- 600OK
4th- 510HE, 5th-585HE, 6th-700H 3.25, 7th-12GA FH,
8th-700HE. Last most powerful. Ed

[hubel458]

Here is pic of the first finished model
breech block for scaleup model. You
hammer and trigger in the back of
the block. Ed

[hubel458]

Another shotgun/rifle experiment is 28ga FH.
Rocky MTN is making me some
3.25 in 28ga cases. They are good to 38k psi.
That will get 500-550 gr out at 2500 in
bolt action.A regular 28ga gun may get to
2000, depending on how heavy barrel is.Should
average 17-1800. Just lengthen chamber.
Get a NEF Ultra cut off leaving breech section
for monoblock and have 28ga rifled barrel
made and screwed or soldered in monoblock.
And being able to hold 38k to match brass,
That would get 2500 fps loads.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the first falling block
model of aluminum, with a roughed out
stock to see how it looks. Action is a
rough model. It shoulders nice, and
lever is inlet into pistol grip,
so you can't get banged up
fingers with the big cartridges it is designed
for, like levers that stick down at the
guard.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is pic of action model with lever open
and the breech block down. Also the action
will have a slot in the top rear for a
top tang of whatever length you need.
Can even add a long tang for tang sights.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is pic of a double that I will put
barrels in, monoblock style, using the breech
section for the monoblock. This one will be
for 28GA FH. May get another same size for
my 510HE. I will be able to run full pressures
with these.....I am trying to find a bigger,
heavier one to put 12GA FH in. I want
heavier one so as to run pressures like my
Savage as a minimum.Ed.