Author Topic: Key hole  (Read 771 times)

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Offline tvc15

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Key hole
« on: January 23, 2006, 01:27:16 PM »
Can somebody explain what causes a key hole, and what it looks like.  thanks,   TVC15

Offline rifleman61

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answers?!
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2006, 01:52:08 PM »
Hey I got a lot of 'sperience in that
Keyholes are either made by keys, or in this context, drivin' a bullet 2 hard for its relative sizebore size and twist rate in the barrel.
Talk to "Quick" he'll tell ya'
It can be darned embarr"asssssssssssin"' at times

Anchor's Away/Semper Fi
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Offline safetysheriff

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Re: Key hole
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2006, 02:11:09 PM »
Quote from: tvc15
Can somebody explain what causes a key hole, and what it looks like.  thanks,   TVC15


1)  too slow a velocity for the given rifles rate of twist with a given projectile.  in other words, higher velocity can stabilize a bullet in a twist rate that is otherwise too slow or marginal......
2)  too slow a twist rate for the weight/length of the projectile....with length being the actual determining factor, really.....within the velocity-capability of your cartridge.
3)  too heavy/long of a projectile for the capabilities of your chosen cartridge and rifles twist rate.

in other words:  twist rate and projectile velocity contribute to projectile 'revolutions per second', and then projectile length / weight dispersion interplay with those 'revolutions per second' as regards bullets either being stable or keyholing which is traveling like a football that is wobbling....     twist rate and projectile velocity "contribute" because the conservation of angular momentum (you like that?) keeps a bullets 'rev's up high, even as its forward velocity is quickly dropping off.  

do a 'search' on the web to learn more about the math' formula involved.   and then realize that stability can be determined or developed depending upon how far away the target is.......   some cartridges and rates of twist will stabilize a bullet for maybe 600 yds, but the projectile will 'keyhole' at 800 or 1000.    (now how do you like this hobby?)

take care,

ss'
Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.

Offline quickdtoo

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Key hole
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2006, 02:50:12 PM »
Chief, I don't have to, SS done went and did it already!! The only keyholing I've experienced was caused by an offending twig hit by the bullet on the way to the target!!!  But, to further this topic, here's a chart based on the Greenhill formula for us mortals....

http://www.gmdr.com/rcbs/rcbstext8.htm
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Offline cheatermk3

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Key hole
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2006, 03:57:02 PM »
A keyhole refers to the hole a bullet makes when it strikes the target other than point-first.  On paper it looks like an oblong or out-of-round hole in the paper.  A "perfect keyhole" would be a hole in the paper made by a bullet striking the target sideways making a hole the shape of the bullet's profile.  Lay a bullet on a flat surface--now imagine it passing through that surface straight down, sideways.  That's a perfect keyhole.

This is the result of a bullet tumbling through the air on it's way downrange, rather than spiralling along point-first like it's supposed to.

Offline tvc15

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Key hole
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2006, 11:35:44 AM »
OK here is the reason I asked. I shot some reloads in my .243. they were 41 grains IMR4350 with a 100 grain bullet. At the range the .243 bullet hole in the paper seemed to be slightly out of round compared to the .270 2 ft. away. I was thinking that the target may have been out of plumb. this handi seems to like the 100 grain but perhaps It needs a larger charge. What do you think?

Offline Blammer

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Key hole
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2006, 02:27:02 PM »
generally the amount of velocity needed to prevent a particular bullet from keyholing in a rifle is usually out of the realm of possibilites.

from my experience getting the extra fps needed to stabilize a bullet will not occur because pressures will be maxed out first.

You will need to either use a shorter bullet, (shorter and lighter bullet don't necessarily go hand in hand, a shorter bullet of the same wt may be obtained, most likely from a diff manufacturer.) or obtain a faster twist brl. These are the most practical and safest ways to prevent keyholing of a particular bullet in a firearm.

Offline cheatermk3

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Key hole
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2006, 03:28:42 PM »
tvc15,

The target being slightly out of plumb could be the reason the holes appear to be slightly out of round.  

Another reason could be that the bullet is not stabilised at the range you're shooting.  What is the range, by the way?  What size groups are you getting with the load?  Some times a bullet will need a bit more than 100 yds to "go to sleep"; that is, settle down and fly straight, nose-on, to the target.

The best way I can think of to describe what I mean, without getting way technical, is a comparison to an everyday, easily observable event.

Have you ever taken a coin, a nickle, say, and spun it between two fingers so that it spins on it's edge, on a table?  try it a few times--what usually happens, if you get it just right, is that the coin spins on edge for a few, or several seconds, pretty much with the axis of spin vertical.  As it slows down, the axis of spin will start to wobble until it reaches the threshold where it no longer spins on edge and falls onto it's side.

A few times out of ten, it will spin with the axis of spin rotating for a few instants, then settle down to spin with it's aixs vertical, and then wobble. then fall onto it's side.

A bullet fired from a rifle barrel can wobble on it's spin axis for a few instants too, for whatever reason, then settle down and fly point-first, until it hits something.  If it goes far enough without hitting anything, it's rotation will slow to the point where it crosses the threshhold of stability.  At this point it's axis of spin will start to rotate around the center of mass, and eventually it will start to tumble.

All modern rifle bullets have this tendancy, to a greater or lesser extent, due to their configuration.  Their rear ends are heavier than their front ends, so they naturally want to tumble when shot.  The only thing that keeps them from tumbling is the gyroscopic force generated by spinning it up in the rifled barrel.  The longer the bullet, the more spin is needed to keep it flying nose-first.


If you're getting good groups, you probably don't have a stability issue since poorly stabilised bullets as a rule will group poorly.  You could try moving your target back another 50-100 yards; if it's still shooting good groups, you're OK.   I once had a 6mm Rem that shot 1-1/2" groups at 100; I thought I had a 1.5 MOA gun, until I moved the target out to 300 yds, and got the same sized groups--1-1/2".  I called Sierra's tech line, they told me about this fact of some bullets needing more range in order to "go to sleep".  The actual flight path of such a bullet is a spiral around it's trajectory.

HTH

Offline Nightrain52

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Key hole
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2006, 05:25:26 PM »
Here is a simple way to explain it,

1. Stabilized-A perfect football pass spiral

2. Yaw-A football pass that is somewhat wobbly

3. Keyhole-It flies like a football at kick-off, end over end.

 :D
FREEDOM IS WORTH FIGHTING FOR-ARE YOU WILLING TO DIE FOR IT--------IT'S HARD TO SOAR LIKE AN EAGLE WHEN YOU ARE SURROUNDED BY TURKEYS

Offline Fred M

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Key hole
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2006, 09:26:22 AM »
Quick Tim and others.

The Greenhill formula is an outdated and a poor system to establish bullet twist. Also you can modify the constant of 150 for better results by testing.

Note: If a bullet is stable at 600 yrds and is not overstabilized it will be stable at 1000 yrds.

The Greenhill formula does not take into consideration aspects that are important to bullet stability. Many people quote this formula because they do not know of a better one.

In general the Greenhill overstabilizes a bullet to the detriment of bullet accuray, it does not address the Center of gravity or the center of pressure of a bullet.

Here is a lot more good reading if you like.

http://www.angelfire.com/ma/ZERMEL/twist2.html

http://www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/

http://www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/fig15.htm
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline quickdtoo

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Key hole
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2006, 10:26:19 AM »
Thanks Fred, but for us neandertals, the GH formula is a good starting place, gives us a ballpark twist rate, even tho it isn't perfect.

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Fred M

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Key hole
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2006, 10:35:51 AM »
Yah Quick, but it (G.F)quotes to someone to use a 9" twist when a 10" twist is more than adequate.. That is my point. He thinks his twist is no good when the poor performance has nothing to do with twist.

I would never call you a Neanderthal or belonging to that tribe my friend. :)
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline quickdtoo

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Key hole
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2006, 11:06:03 AM »
Thanks Fred, but I meant for us folks with modest firearms knowledge, just enough to get by and stay outa trouble!! :roll: Math wasn't one of my strong suites, still isn't!! :oops:

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline tvc15

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Key hole
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2006, 11:22:35 AM »
After everybodys description I feel that they are not keyholing. I think that if they were the hole would be somewhat different every time and if I look at them know I see they are consistantly the same which makes me return to the out of plumb theory. By the way I shoot at 100 yards and get 1-2inch groups.This is a 6 year old NEF with the laminated stock. Part of my reasoning forreloading was to "play" around with different stuff for this gun. I love to shoot it because of the light recoil. I am enjoying the challenge of trying to perfect a round for this gun.  thanks,   TVC15

Offline safetysheriff

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Key hole
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2006, 11:27:52 AM »
Fred, et.al.

i used a modification of the Greenhill formula when i figured that my Handi' at 3000 fps could compensate for Greenhills 1800 fps formula (roughly).    i found i could stabilize a 60 gr' Spire Point in a .223 Handi' with 1- in 12 twist by driving it fast, even though the formula didn't seem to think so.   (no keyholing at MY hunting ranges).  

however, elsewhere i have seen, probably with a cartridge like the .308 shooting one of the heavier match-grade bullets, that a bullet needed a faster twist to stay stable at the distance to target.....    that is a fact from long-range.com or maybe somewhere else, even though the conservation of angular momentum is at work.   it is possible that one of our aficianados could eventually try something at an extreme range and find that his stabilized 600 yd' projectile was not stable at a significantly greater distance.   it is possible to marginally stabilize a bullet at long hunting ranges without having it perform at "Camp Perry distances".    with some of our group re-boring rifles and some of them possibly entering competition (of some kind) with a Handi' it is something to consider.

ss'
Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.

Offline Fred M

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Key hole
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2006, 01:32:30 PM »
safetysheriff
The crux is a bullet is either stable or it is not.
 If a bullet is stable when it leaves the barrel it will be so until it drops to the ground.

Either over or under stabilization will not do it for extreme ranges. A factor of 1.28 is considered stable anything above that is overstabilized. At short ranges You can find bullets that shoot well at 1.13. anything below 1 is unstable.

The rotational velocity and the gyroscopic stability is not lost anywhere near as fast as a bullet looses it velocity. The spin is not impaired by air resistance. The bullet behind the air cone is nearly free to rotate.

A good visual explanation is a childs top. You will notice that it stiil spins after it falls over.( lost its velocity so to speak)

I think if I got nothing to do I should do it somwhere else.  :lol:
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline Nightrain52

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Key hole
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2006, 01:56:45 PM »
tvc15-If you are getting 1to2 inch groups it is most likely not keyholing. Most of the time if it is keyholing the bullets will be all over the place. :D
FREEDOM IS WORTH FIGHTING FOR-ARE YOU WILLING TO DIE FOR IT--------IT'S HARD TO SOAR LIKE AN EAGLE WHEN YOU ARE SURROUNDED BY TURKEYS