25-06 for big mulies

[bladerunner]

not that I'm about to head west right now,but I was debating the effectiveness of a 25-06 on big mulies out to 400 yards with 2 guys in a chat room.....they say that a 25-06 will not be enough gun,and I say it will drop a mulie like it had it's feet snatched out from under it......what say you all?

[nomosendero]

I say that I have done it several times, although not all of them were big.

I use good , warm but safe loads with well constructed bullets, I don't want
to start the "my bullet is better than yours routine", but just to tell you what has worked for me. My brother & I use 25-06 Sendero's which last
Summer we had them converted to 25-06AI, but used them on 3 trips to
Wyoming in Stock form to harvest 6 Mule Deer & 5 Antelope, (yea we buy
Doe tags too). The shots ranged from 80 yards to 430 yards.

I can say that these worked & would not hesitate to use again: 100 gr.TSX
115TSX, 120 Nos. Partition. We used the 117 Sierra for Years in AR. on
Whitetails & they can be very lethal, but I would prefer not to shoot big
Deer up close in the shoulder with that one.

In our trip last Oct, we used the 125 Gr. Wildcat ULD in our AI's. They are
incredible, especially in their ballistic qualities as the fly almost identical to
a 200MK in a 30 cal. We & others in our party used our guns on this trip &
we took 6 Antelope & 3 Mule Deer with this bullet at 3,250 FPS, we had
4 bang-flops, 4 that ran 5-15 yards & 1 that ran about 50 yards.

I do shoot 300 mags & other bigger guns quite a bit, but for Mule Deer &
Antelope & Whitetails the 25-06 is pure dynamite!

[mitchell]

if you can hit them it will blow the crap out of them.




now i've never used a 25-06 on a mulie but i've seen it knock some big white tail in the dirt and i've heard of people using it on elk .

[NONYA]

If you actually plan on shooting deer at 400 yards do yourself and the seer a favor and get somthing like a 7 mag or 300 wm.

[bladerunner]

nonya,the 25-06 has PLENTY for a deer if hit in the vitals,at 400 yards..and if you hit him in the rump,a 300 win mag isn't any good,either....I'm not planning on a mule deer hunt in the near future,nor do I think I can HIT one at 400 yards,BUT if I were to have the skills,I wouldn't hesitate to use the 25-06.............It still has about 1200 ft lbs at 400,so why WOULDN'T it be good?

sure,a 300 win mag would hit HARDER,but why would I need more power than a 25-06..............some people hunt whitetails with a 300 win mag with POSSIBLE shots of 200 yards,WILL that kill a deer,of course,but is it nessesary,NOPE

[nomosendero]

bladerunner
I know in a way where Nonya is coming from, in some factory loads, it
would not be the top choice for Big Mule Deer at 400 yards, & that is why I had the qualifier at the beginning of the post concerning the right bullets & the right loads. Some factory loads are a little weak but some will for
sure do the job. Use at least a 24" barrel & a 26" is better. Our loads
exceed factory loads, but are safe in our rifles. If you "put it all together",
the 25-06 is very deadly, but the main thing is to shoot & I mean shoot alot with your load before you tackle a 400 yard shot.
With the bullets & rifles we use, I haven't even felt close to being borderline. If I did, I would simply carry one of my bigger rounds for this
chore, period!! I have a super accurate 300 Mag Sendero that always wants to go, but noooooo!!

[bladerunner]

I shoot Hornady sst 117gr at whitetails,but at mulies at looooooong distances,I'd change to a bullet that would hold together better.....but I think that with premium factory ammo,there shouldn't be a problem and I think I'd choose THIS one ...........

http://www.buckmasters.com/Buckmasters_Links/Classic_Buckmasters/articles/DeadlyDeer.html

[nomosendero]

Thanks for posting that article, I have that original article somewhere, I made a copy for a friend that thinks you need a 30 mag. if it is bigger than a Coyote, that is a great article & proves the point. My youngest Son
has a H&R Ultra 25-06, my loads are a little warm for it & he uses that factory round & it trully is deadly.

[Don Fischer]

I've killed a lot of deer and if your talking about snatch their feet out on a regular basis, you loose! If your talking about at will, your shooting at the spine.

God only know's why some people feel a need to shoot at game animals at 400 yds, but if you must, nonyas right. I might add a 264 Win Mag to his choices, we're talking factory right?

The 25-06 hasn't been made that'll shoot a 117/120 gr class bullet and stay with 264 wim mag 140gr, 7mm Rem mag 160gr or 300 Win mag 180 gr. The 25 cal bullets are balistically inferior and those other round's will match the 25-06 117/120 gr load for velocity. your bringing a knife to a gun fight!

[bladerunner]

it never fails to amaze me the people that think deer are armour coated and 1200 pounds and require a bazooka to have a snow balls chance of killing it

deer are light boned,thin skinned,relatively small animals,and it doesn't take a 300 win mag to put one on the ground

people genarally say that a 30-30 is good to 200 yards.....it only has about 1000ft lbs at that range......the 25-06 has 250 more ft lbs at 400 yards,so why the heck should it have a problem with a DEER???

BTW,Don,I said that I can't shoot that far,but if I could,I'd expect the bullet to do the job with NO problems

[NONYA]

It never ceases to amaze me why people insist on bragging about killing big game at extreme ranges with light rifles,you go shoot your MD at 400 yards with whatever you think is gonna work,why start a thread asking a question like this and then blast anyone who awnsers with some sound advice?Im just a guy who has killed at least 1 mule deer and usually 3-5 every year since I was 12(20 years),many at ranges in the 3-400 yard area and a few farther,I probably have no idea what Im talking about.I dont give a damn how many deer you wound at 400 yards just do it somewhere far away from me.

[Redhawk1]

I have to agree with NONYA on this. I would choose a 300 WM.  I don't understand why people always want to push the envelope with how small can I go. Do the smart thing and bring enough gun. Bottom Line.  :wink:

[Savage .250]

If your looking at long-range(400 yds) plus other factors such as wind
  or bad weather (you never know) i`m taking another cal say something in the .30 class or bigger.
   Why "wonder " if you have enough gun ?  Plus, i hope you`ve been to the range and shot a bunch at 400 yds and i don`t mean off the bench
  as there are no benches in the open spaces.

[nomosendero]

Savage .250
The original question was using the round out to 400 yards, yes if you go
much further you are getting into another catagory, one that most people
don't need to do anyway. With the loads that we have been discussing,
400 is no problem, but it can be for the shooter.
You mention the wind, which is a good point, but the 125Wildcat will buck
the wind right up there with a 200MK 30cal. & most 30cal hunting bullets
are less efficient than that.
If I wanted to shoot further, I would use my 300 Sendero or a 7STW, but
that is another subject.

[thelaw]

on our montana muley trip this fall the .25/06 proved more than capable of taking muleys. my partner was fortunate to work for one of the outfitters up there after our hunt and his sendero .25/06 was used for several mule deer kills by his clients including his own muley at 373yards. it also downed an elk. 115gr. trophy bonded bearclaws were the bullet of choice. i think though, its more in the shooters long range shooting ability that should be considered rather than the cartridge itself. i'd rather see someone that can shoot, hunt with a .243 than someone with a .300 that can't shoot that well. just my $.02.

on a side note, on our mule deer trip one guy shot a muley at about 150 yards with a .300 weatherby. due to poor bullet placement he had to shoot it twice.

[thelaw]

on our montana muley trip this fall the .25/06 proved more than capable of taking muleys. my partner was fortunate to work for one of the outfitters up there after our hunt and his sendero .25/06 was used for several mule deer kills by his clients including his own muley at 373yards. it also downed an elk. 115gr. trophy bonded bearclaws were the bullet of choice. i think though, its more in the shooters long range shooting ability that should be considered rather than the cartridge itself. i'd rather see someone that can shoot, hunt with a .243 than someone with a .300 that can't shoot that well. just my $.02.

on a side note, on our mule deer trip one guy shot a muley at about 150 yards with a .300 weatherby. due to poor bullet placement he had to shoot it twice.

[Don Fischer]

bladerunner,

Couple of thing's here. First I doubt that anyone who posted here doubt's the ability of the 25-06 given perfect conditions and good shot placement, but most seem to agree that for what your talking, there are lots better choices.

Next if you believe that energy is what kill's, the farther away you get, the more you lose. If you believe shot placement is the key, the farther away you get the more difficult it become's.

This is a issue that will never be resolved. My opinion is that it's not ethical to shoot beyond the point blank range of your cartridge and then to that range only if your practice a great deal at that range. That make's the 25-06 at best a 300yd cartridge. Other's will say I've no right determing what's ethical, wrong. We each determine that for ourselve's and pass judgement on other's based on what we concider ethical!

Finally, you came to the war with an empty gun so don't complain about answer's you can't live with. You were the one debating with two guy's in a chat room. Likely two guy's you don't even know. And your the one that came here, aperently looking for people to justify your side. You did that because you didn't know for sure the right answer. Guess what? You still don't. You'll just choose you expert and concider the rest uninformed.

Now to pick on nomosendro:
we took 6 Antelope & 3 Mule Deer with this bullet at 3,250 FPS, we had
4 bang-flops, 4 that ran 5-15 yards & 1 that ran about 50 yards

That was a 125gr 25 cal bullet out of a 25-06AI. Is that a cronographed velocity? I shoot a 117 gr bullet from a factory chamber and get a ten shot average of 3079fps. Hornady list's a 120gr bullet from a 257 Weatherby at 3200fps. Improving the 25-06 gave you a 271 fps increase over a standard 25-06 with a bullet 8 grs heavier? It also gave you a 50fps increase over a 257 Weatherby with a bullet 5grs heavier? What's your case life?

Good record of kills. Over 50% ran some distence AFTER being shot. That I'd expect. You didn't give the range's on those shot last year but you gave some range's. How do you measure range? I tried the Bushnell yardage pro and the Nikon at Cabela's some time back and couldn't get reliable reading's past about 250 yds. Seem's to do so you'd need the Queen Mary for a target. I've never tried the Leica and understand it will give accutate reading's to something like 1000 yds, I don't know.

[/code]

[NONYA]

Any guide worth his salt would NEVER allow a client to take a 25-06 on an elk hunt,you have revealed VOLUMES about the kind of people youb are hunting with.

[bladerunner]

Nonya,I obviously had an opinion when I started this thread,I wasn't asking for ADVICE,I was asking for opinions
You sir,like myself,have strong opinions (I've read more than a couple of your posts)and there's nothing wrong with that.....just don't get upset when I come back with my own :-D

I would not want to BRAG about shooting a deer at 400 yards with a 25-06,I just believe I have a MUCH better chance of placing the bullet in the proper spot with a 25-06 than a 300 win mag (not saying that bone crushing recoil affects YOU,just that it affects ME)
  I also believe that it (25-06) is quite deadly IF proper shot placement is achieved...and as I've said before...without proper shot placement,nothing is enough gun
  and the fact that you have killed quite a few deer with a LARGE caliber,doesn't make the SMALL caliber a bad choice.....IF i had shot EVERY whitetail I've ever shot with a 416 Rigby,that would mean NOTHING as far as what it TAKES to kill a whitetail...see my point?

Don,"point blank" range only refers to the "flatness" of the trajectory....on big game,3 inches high or low of the point you are aiming.....at longer ranges,you simply aim higher......I see no relation to "killing power" and "point blank" range IF you can make a "kill" shot      

As I've said,I'M NOT capable of making a 400 yard shot (especially under "field" conditions) so I wouldn't try it,nobody has to worry about me "crippling" thier deer

my WHOLE point is that,with proper SHOT PLACEMENT,a 25-06 will EFFECTIVELY kill ANY deer at 400 yards

[nomosendero]

Boy, do I wish that I had stayed out of this one & this morning I decided to, that is until I read the afternoon posts. My intent if you look at my
original post, was to merely answer the question & my best way to do that
is by sharing real experiences & the how (loads, guns, etc.), if I don't have
the experience with the exact question, I don't enter the post. No bragging
was done (I don't think that was about me), only telling what we have actually done. The question was will the 25-06 reliably kill a Mule Deer UP
TO 400 YARDS, not over 400 yards.
I mentioned 4 bullets that worked for us, but to be exact, looking at my notes I cannot see where we shot anything over 327 yards with the 100TSX, sorry.
Sooooo, with the 115TSX, 120 Nos. Part. & 125 Wildcat, at long range with
the resultant lower velocity, we obtained COMPLETE PENETRATION EACH
TIME! Each time we had a very good WOUND CHANNEL! I am not sure what else was needed. I have bow hunted long enough to Know that if you get complete pass-throughs with a sharp broadhead, yow will have a
dead Deer & this is not as dramatic of course as the wound channels that
I am describing not to mention the slightly greater shock. Penetration is a
function of Sectional Density & bullet construction. The sectional density
of a 120 grain 25 is .260 & the sectional density of a 140 grain 270 is
.261, so if both bullets are Nosler Part., then the penetration will be the same, does anyone think that the 270 140 gr. would have inadaquate penetration. The 270 Energy is higher, but both have more than enough
UP TO 400 YARDS.
Great care must be exercised no matter what cartridge is used & the shooters ability & a well tuned rifle are essential. Also if conditions aren't right & the range isn't known & the conditions aren't right, don't shoot!!!
I think that the main uses for the 25-06 are long range/windy day Varmits, Antelope rifle at it's best & super for Deer to 300 yards or so
& as I said at the beginning very acceptable for Deer UP TO 400 YARDS
with the bullets & the other QUALIFIERS that I have noted fome the start.  
This looks like 2 sides have formed, I am not interested in sides, only
told my experience with some facts thrown in. As I said before, Nonya I
think had a good point, especially since he said some of his Deer were
shot over 400 Yards, I saw some of his pictures, very nice Mule Deer
& I don't think he was bragging, only sharing the experience, please keep them coming! I am looking at a different place (Montana) to hunt Mule
Deer in 2 years, & I was told that the shots could be beyond 400 yards,
sooo I may take my 300 Sendero or actually I would like to buy one of
those new 264 Sendero's, come  on I am tring to justify this to my wife.  
I THINK I HAD BETTER START ANOTHER POST FOR THE NEXT LITTLE ISSUE!!!
[/b]

[nomosendero]

Don Fischer
When you say that you are going to pick on me, my assumption is that you made this statement in jest, it is my nature & purpose to feel this way,
but only you know that. Also, I understand some of these questions being asked, especially the velocities, as they are high, though doable.
I will take it point by point.
(1) Concerning the kills, about half were bang-flops, when you say you expect some to run, so do I. With 300 mags or anything else, I do not get 100% bang flops out to 400 yards. In the past, we would get 70-80% with the 117 Sierra, but we quit using it to get a slightly harder bullet, trading a few more dramatic kills for more penetration. I don't think some of the Deer moving is an issue, as the blood would be there anyway for 100% recovery even in the AR. thickets, not a factor on the Wyoming plains. :?
(2)Are these speeds chronographed? Yes, they are as they are for any
Varmit, Target or Big Game rifle that I own. How else can I know how
to do my drop & wind chart to tape on my stock & know exactly how to use my Mil-Dots? I prepare on paper & on targets @ a much greater distance than I will shoot at a Game Animal & then the hold over on mils
@ game ranges is second nature.
(3) Concerning the velocity, again I assume that you are not picking on me, so I have to assume that you only had this one reload manual or
you were in a hurry. Otherwise, if you were picking on me, then you
are trying to show the Wea. #'s low so that my AI #'s look unreachable.
The Nosler # 3 shows 3,260 & we may say big deal, but the Nosler Data
is with a 24" barrel, I am using a 26" barrel. Anyone would agree that
2 inches of barrel in a overbore round like the 257 Wea. would lose
100 FPS, but for fun, let's say 60FPS though laughable, add this to the 60
FPS stated difference & round it down to 100FPS to be very conservative, same round, 2 different manuals, which is common, & get this, Hodgdon
# 27 shows 3,325 with IMR7828 & the 120 Nos., sorry you missed that.
I have the New Sierra Manual #5, WHY DID YOU NOT MENTION THE 25-06AI DATA THERE? They show 3,200 FPS with the 120 & that is with a 25-06 OAL & mine is THROATED for longer bullets so that I can use more POWDER. Hey, it's starting to look easier.
I always advise reloaders to back off at least 10% from max. in manuals
& work up & I always will but my loads sometimes & in this case are a little over max. , a hair it appears but SAFE in my rifle. The Manuals are lawyerized & that's fine & that is why I NEVER give powder charges.  
Your velocity of 3,079 looks reasonable to me. I Did not see if it is a 24" or
26" & it sure matters in this round! Let's do some 1st grade math, well
12th grade now.                                        Your Load:......... 3,075
AI conversion: 125 FPS, no let's be very conservative:.........    100
MY barrel is a very slick barrel, fast barrel, 80FPS faster than
my brothers barrel, let's make it 40 FPS, but yours may be fast  40
Difference in Powder could easily change vel. by 50fps              50
                                                                                        3,265 hmmm
If you have a 24" instead of a 26" 100FPS, no let's make it        50
                                                                                        3,315hmmm
If your barrel is fast too & 26", 3,225 of course with 7 whooping gr. diff.
in bullet, but this exercise is only to show variables that exist, difference
in Manuals, etc.
It does not matter, as the Sierra manual proves the point combined with
my longer throat.
(4) What is my case life? About 6 firings, not counting fire forming. In hot
weather, which is when I check the loads for pressure, more like 5 firings.
No, my chrono. vel. given was not done in hot weather. I have easy bolt lift, no shiney ext. marks, no danger signs. I load these for performance,
not long case life, 250 rounds of brass will last awhile & I use the 223, 308
& 22-250 for volume shooting/case life.
I have noticed that a couple of the moderators & several members live
close by, so if this velocity seems just too much, I bet I can arrange
someone to verify it, again if you are picking on me, a friendly wager
perhaps & we can post the results, but if you are only asking, that is cool
with me.
(5) I did not give the ranges of last year because in that hunt the rifles
were in 25-06AI & the original question was about the 25-06. You will
find that I am painfully precise, but if it is important, from 70 yards to
406 yards.
(6)What kind of rangefinder? Bushnell, 800 yard, later generation. Even
though they were newer ones, some days you don't get good reading & are more sensitive than the Swarvo. or Leica. The way that we verified this was if 2-3 of us got the same exact readings, they had the right
conditions in light & so-forth for that day. Combining this with Mil-dot
Scopes & a guide that was the best at the range game that I have seen,
if all 3 ways dovetailed, then we were good to go. Then after the shot
we would step off the long ones & things went fine. Some of these times,
this data did not come together & wo would hold our fire, that simple.
Sir
I may sound a little too frank, but the way the questions were asked lead me to question the reason, if it was for information, I believe that is what
the Forums are about, but if not I have a right to know & I will allways be
prepared to verify what I post whenever needed. If the term "picking
on me" was in jest, then my brash comments are als in jest.
 
These 400-425 yard shots were viewed by us to be the exception & not the rule, about 20% of the shots. They were not taken unless all factors were known & the animal allowed a good shot. Under all these factors
the 25-06 will deliver on Deer, the original question & Yes,  Elk are killed with it, But not me,  I will use my 300 & such for that job or for shots over 400 yards.

[Don Fischer]

nomosendero,

Your comment's are not all that brash. Let's see, I don't own a Serria manual and I'm out on the road. I have with me a new Hornady manual.
The increase in velocity is amazing to me. The 30-06 case even in improved condition, should be of less capacity than the 257 Weatherby. I don't shoot improved cases but have been giving it a lot of though the past year, on my 243 win.

I believe I read in Ackley's book where the real advantage in improved cartridge's come's not necessarily in velocity gains but rather in less bolt thrust and a reduction in appearent pressure. I belivev Steve Timm wrote of the same finding's in "Varmit Hunter". He like's improved case's.

I know of two people that shoot the 6.5Gibbs and they report a velocity of 3000fps from a 30" barrel. Huh, I get just under 2900 fps with a standard 6.5x06 and a 25" barrel. Not such a great gain concidering an extra 5" of barrel.

Like probally yourself, when someone give's me a velocity in round figures and it pushes max or is a max listed load, I wonder where it came from. I have found that the listed velocitie's will vary a great deal not only from gun to gun but also from the published load. I use a Pact MKIV.

I almost feel sorry for Bladerunner. He got drawn into a concersation in another chat room he wasn't ptrpared to handle. Then he ran into three different kind's of people here. Myself who believe's that shooting should not happen but if it does you need more than the 25-06 (which I do use and I love it). Then yourself that has done this type shooting and I don't doubt your results. As I said earlier, what you described is in line with my own finding using a 117gr bullet. Then he ran into other guy's that shoot long range but believe in larger cartridges. And all the while he said from the begining that he wouldn't do it.

One more thing befor I close this. Penetration is not mearlt a function on sectional density. Velocity contributes and projectile contributes. With velocity and bullet construction being equal, the heavier bullet will penetrate deeper. Oh yea, I'm in the restruant now and my book is in the truck. Look up the difference in sectional densities and ballistic coefficents between the 25 cal heavyweight's, the 26 cal 129 and 140 gr , the 154 and above 7mm and the 180 and above 30's. If you really like that longe range stuff that much and you seem to your gonna love the 6.5 if you get it.

[NONYA]

Blade Runner,you are 100%correct that a 25-06 will kill a deer dead at 400 yards with proper shot placement.I just dont like the idea of shooting game that large at that kind of range with a light bullet,to many what ifs.Personally I hate shooting a 300wm but  its a kickass round and as accurate as any other,I prefer my 7mag with a 160 gr Barnes triple shock @3100 fps.This bullet stays together no matter the what ifs,and it penetrates GREAT at any range.If you do lots of long range hunting give these bullets a try,I was a dihard Nosler fan up until the day I shot my first deer with these new bullets,Im loading up some 200 gr's for my 8 mag right now,thats a 400 yards elk rifle!

[bladerunner]

OK,Don and NONYA,what range do you believe should be the maximum for a 25-06 on deer?

BTW,Don....no need feeling sorry for me,heck,I jumped in with both feet and don't get my feelings hurt easily,lol

and I enjoy a spirited debate  

[Savage .250]

Nomosendero:
      Your retort to my comments/opinion is so noted. I believe the key word was " effectiveness" out to 400 yds.  
     That being said i still like my reply.  I`m not the enemy here just a guy with an opinion. By the comments from others (some in detail) there looks
    to be many different  views on the question.

[NONYA]

If i was limited to this caliber rifle i would try to keep my shots under 300 yards,and this is quite probable,people usually take longer shots when a little extra effort will provide a closer shot.If i can get within 40 yards to take on with a bow I should have no problem stalking within 300 yards with a rifle.Im not one of the guys who gets off on long range hunting/shooting,i want to get as close as possible to make a 1 shot kill,I killed my best buck at about 35 yards with my 7 mag.

[riddleofsteel]

The true limit on killing deer at distance is the ability of the shooter. I don't care if you are shooting a 25-06, 7mm Mag, 300 WM or a superbangflop magnum thunder boomer.
In the field 95% of hunters have no business taking a shot at a big game animal at much more than 200 yards, much less 400. Now if you combine a flat shooting rifle with a solid rest, known distance (pre-measured or laser), no wind, and an experienced rifleman 400 yards is possible, even with a 25-06.

I used to hunt on a lease where I had built a tower stand. It had rails on all four sides that had shooting tables built in with sand bags stacked up to shoot off of. One view, across an alfalfa field, was a measured 385 yards to the far corner. I had been practicing that summer from that same stand on lifesize cardboard cut out deer with my 25-06 Sendero. I was shooting 117 grain Hornady SPBT's that were pushing 3200 FPS from the Sendero's 26" barrel. On several occasions I had fired 1.5" groups on targets down in this 385 yard corner. In short I had every confidence that afternoon when a 175lb whitetail buck stepped out in the far corner of that field. 10 yards from the buck a small wooden stake with its orange ribbon attached testified to the measure distance. When I settled the cross hairs of the 3.5x10 50mm Leupold Vari X III on the buck's chest they were rock solid. The buck paused and I squeezed the trigger between my finger and the trigger guard just like I done dozens of times in practice. At the report of the rifle the buck hunched up slightly and took off, tail down. He ran about 35 yards and stumbled. I chambered another round but it was not needed. The buck stumble-ran another 20 yards and fell over.
When I inspected the damage the 117 grain Hornady Innerlock had completely penetrated his chest, just behind the shoulder. The exit wound was large and bits of deer clockwork were all over the ground were the deer was hit.

Yes Virginia the 25-06 is a 400 yard deer rifle. But my question to you is; Are you a 400 yard rifleman?

My shot was made under extraordinary conditions, conditions most hunters will never hunt under. In the field I limit my shots to my own skills and setup. This rifle wears a Harris bipod most of the time but without my tower stand and sandbags 400 yards is just a pipe dream.

YMMV

http://yerfrockethellhound.com/SENDERO25-06.JPG

[bladerunner]

Riddle of steel,first of all I GOTTA GET ONE OF THOSE (superbangflop magnum thunder boomer)and I sincerely hope Tikka starts chambering for it....what's the recoil like   :-D

also,who's "Virginia"??  

but seriously,what you just stated is what i've been saying the whole time....25-06 WITH proper PLACEMENT.....I also agree that without a SOLID rest and ALOT of practice,400 yards is a "pipe dream"....only thing I was trying to drive home is that a 300 win mag or 7MM mag are not REQUIRED....are they BETTER at 400 yards,sure,IF you can shoot one as accurately

side note:I believe that a 300 win mag or a 7MM mag is just a "my gun is bigger than your gun" thing around where I hunt...and many use them....and many MISS,....as I've said before in this thread,I'm not saying that recoil makes people flinch all the time,but it sure doesn't ADD to accuracy

true story:my cousin SWORE he didn't flinch,so,unbeknownst to him,I removed a cartridge from his rifle when he went to get something......when he came back,he sat down,got all comfy,steadied the crosshairs,and when the rifle "clicked" he almost curled up in a ball from flinching.....I almost died LAUGHING    :-D  :-D  :-D

[NONYA]

I dont even notice the recoil of my 7 mag and I have never heard anyone complain about thiers.Its not about hey mine is bigger,its about making a clean kill with a more suitable cartrudge.You can practice your 400 yards shoots alll year but you can never reproduce the conditions you may have to shoot from,weather,excitment,game movement,ect ect,why dont you work on your stalking skills instead so you wont have to worry about taking 400 yard shots with a 200 yard gun. :roll:

[bladerunner]

Nonya,at 300 yards (not 400) the 25-06 and the 300 win mag and the 7MM mag are very simular in one aspect  .....they ALL produce DEAD deer ........no questions asked and no bonus points for a baseball sized hole   :-D

as far as I'm concerned,this is an academic exercise because,when it comes down to it,I agree with you....you should only take shots that the rifle/hunter/cartridge can accomplish....for me,that would be 250/300 yards,absolutly no further than that......I WILL stalk closer

I just happen to like accademics   :-D  :-D

no hard feelings,I hope