JUKAR muzzleloader?????

[field989]

I have just received a muzzleloader, it is rusted very bad and never shot.
It seems to be either a .50 caliber or something smaller(I measured the bore to get a rough estimate on caliber it was 1/16 smaller than 1/2 of a inch)

It says JUKAR 0011707(or 0011757 I cant tell because of rust) then it says spain.
the stock extends to the end of the barrel


ANY INFO WELCOME

[dodd3]

989 that is company that made all cva guns it is pronounced daker,is it a two pice stock and it will be a .45 cal .dose it look like this pic.
bernie

[field989]

it is a one piece stock.
yes it looks like that.

Is it a good rifle?

Will it shoot good?

how much are they worth?

can I get a new barrel for it, or accessories for it?


I think it is a .50 not a .45caliber.(it seems just a tad smaller than 50)

[spitpatch]

The outside of the gun matters little........what does the bore look like? Thats what really counts. Rust inside the barrel is a big problem.

[field989]

rusty.



It has never been cleaned or oiled for like 10 years!!


(I got the gun for free from my grandpa)

[spitpatch]

If it's rusted inside, I'd be huntin' a new barrel for it. It should be worth keeping. CVA can probably fix you up, that style gun is awesome!

[spitpatch]

Grandpas are pretty awesome too. I got a couple loaders from my grand dad also.

[field989]

If I could get a new barrel for it could it shoot good

[jgalar]

Clean it up and try shooting it. A pitted barrel can still shoot OK.

[spitpatch]

Yes, a new barrel should shoot as good as any other gun. I'd be cautious about trying to shoot through a rusty barrel. You might try scrubbing the bore good and see if you can get the rust out, as jaglar stated it can possibly shoot decent through a pitted barrel........but built up rust is another matter. Hopefully someone with more knowledge in this area will offer up some advice.......

[field989]

I emailed cva.

they said that they no longer make that barrel any more.

[field989]

If I could get the rust out of it what kind of powder and what caliber bullet should I use. what type of powder.




just so no one freaks out :grin:   I already have a TC OMEGA(but I use pryodex and hornady L-N-L sabots not grainulated powder.) so I dont know what kind to use.


Also I remember at our shooting class and hunter ed the muzzle loaders that they had their (i had noticed that they had rust in them)

Also how good are davide pedersoli rifles.
lookin at the .72 caliber kodiac express double rifle and their  side by side shotgun.
very nice lookin guns though.

[captchee]

What CVA says doesn’t mater , they don’t make or sell anything worth much anymore .
Replacement barrels are readily available .

 Rust inside  a barrel isn’t all that much of a concern unless its turned into deep pitting .  Go down to the local sporting goods place and by a “ if it’s a 50 cal “ 28 gage brass wire  shotgun brush. a 20 will work as well but it’s a little tighter to work with  . If its 45 get one for a  26 . 28 or .410 gage brush , .

While your there pick up a small bore light . If your rifle is a 45 cal this light will start to drop down the barrel but will hang up on the  bulb retaining ring . Take a sand paper and sand this ring flush so it will drop down the barrel.  When testing the fit of the light don’t let go of it tell you have cleaned the barrel  with  the wire brush. Here is how to do that .

 Take the barrel out of the stock “ it will have a bolt on the tang and most likely 2 to 3 pins holding it to the stock. Some also had small screws that  held the barrel and ram rod barrels to the stock  .  Look it over real well to make sure you have not missed anything that holds the barrel to the stock  .
Now scrub the barrel  real. don’t worry about the rust on the outside , that’s a Boone for ya. Just Oil it up real well and you have a browned barrel .
 Now back to the inside . placing the breech area in a bucket of hot water  run the brush down the barrel .  It should go down with a little pressure but not forced . If  you feel the need to force , get a smaller brush . Now its going to hang up at the bottom and your going to think its stuck .

 You will need to twist the brush to turn the bristles out of the rifling   pull as your twisting . Once the bristles turn the brush will come back out . Do this 3 or 4 times and then run a cleaning patch on the appropriate  cleaning jag  down the bore  pumping the hot water back and forth tell it makes its way to the muzzle end  and the barrel gets  real warm to the touch .
 Now take the brass brush back after her again . Keep repeating this tell your cleaning patches become clean and the water being flushed from the barrel is clear .
 Now it should be safe to slide  bore light down the barrel .
 Look for any pitting  ,you will know when you see it  will show as dark spots .
 Light rust or surface rust doesn’t hurt the barrel but that pitting can . Its like a cavity in a tooth .
 Now if you see pitting , don’t despair ,  take the barrel and your light to a qualified gunsmith that knows Black powder  and have him look it over  the barrel may be saved with lapping .

 Now here is something you need to know .  There were many, many of these companies  that popped up in the 1960’s and 70’s . these were never high end weapons  and often it was a role of the dice if you purchased a good one or bad one . I would keep that in mind .  I would also not spend more then 75 bucks having any barrel work done  for a replacement to brand new can be done   for   a round 100.00 US. And high end barrels  for less then 200. The swap is simple and most time requires very little to no  modification  to the stock itself

[field989]

thanks for the info but I am kind of cautious about taking the barrel off.

I took the screw out that is at the end of the barrel (by the action) and all of the other screws but there were these pins(not screws) along the stock(the stock extends to the end of the barrel) I dont know If I need to take them out or what I need to do to get the barrel off :?:

also what kind of bore light were you talking about.(i have a bore light )
also where could I find a nipple for it. It looks very corroded and rusted.

[captchee]

if  there are pins along the barrel in the four stock they will need to be taken out as well. these drive out usually  inserted left to right . a finish nail of the correct size  works well  for this. use the flat end to push the pins out , Be careful here and take your time . If this is was Kit Jukar  and the person who put it together knew what they were doing the four stock should be very thin and light .care should be taken not to break it  or crack it .
 If it’s the standard production Jukar it will have a lot of wood   up front
 Also  its not uncommon to find  that   on rifles with a nose cap ‘ brass or other metal   cap at the end of the stock “ to have this screwed threw the wood and into the barrel  so watch this area as well.

 as to the nipple  you will have to find which size is used for your  rifle . a gun smith  will be able to do this for you  and shouldn’t charge you  for doing it .  once you have the size right it down or have it lightly engraved on the bottom of your barrel .
 there are several different sized , threads and thread pitches and many of the companies used more then one . Getting the correct on is very important  don’t use the TAR rule here .
 When taking this out don’t use a set of vice grips , there are proper tools for the removal of nipples . either small open end wrenches or a nipple wrench .

 Have you checked to make sure this rifle isn’t loaded ? If you have not this would be a very good thing to check . Sometimes folks get very lax  and put away their weapons loaded with the intent of using them . Things happen  and years down the road some un suspecting person  un wittingly gets a loaded weapon . I personally have purchase  original loaded barrel  from gun auction as well as on e-bay , check this out before you go much further .
 The bore light im speaking of is a small one that is made of brass . You drop this down the  bore and it lights the inside  so you can inspect it .
  If you bore light is one of the monofilament ones often used for modern inlines you probably will not get it down through the nipple around the  bolster and into the breech face .

 once again  when in doubt ask a qualified smith who can vissualy inspect and see your weapon .
 also remember as aim sure you realize. This is a weapon , it  will kill  just a quick as your modern inline will or any center fire . Treat it with  respect and  until you know for sure treat it as if its loaded  . Even then its always good to get in the habit of  treating it as if its always loaded

[field989]

yes I have checked to see if it was loaded(it was the first thing I did)

My bore light is like a flash light with a clear curved plastic thing on the end of it.

I shouldn't need to take the action(the hammer and all that jaz)out should I :?:

I still dont know if it is a 50 or a 45 caliber it seems closer to 50 but is just a tad smaller???

[captchee]

My bore light is like a flash light with a clear curved plastic thing on the end of it.

 i have not tried one of those ,  but for  breach loaders . if it will shine down the bore so as to light it up it should work

I still dont know if it is a 50 or a 45 caliber it seems closer to 50 but is just a tad smaller??

 well if you have a   50 cal is .500 bore  and 45 is .450.  Bore however  this does not mean your rifle is not say a 48  cal . there were such things and many originals fall in off gages or calibers
 50 is  just a smidgen over 1/2 inch
do you have a set of calipers to measure the bore ?

I shouldn't need to take the action(the hammer and all that jaz)out should I :?:

well  if the barrel and nipple is as bad as you say then the lock will probably need some attention as well can not hurt to take it off and see whats  going on with it

[lostid]

This is getting silly.
 First off, if it's Jukar,,it's a split stock.
Yes, take the lock out. Remove the ramrod. Place the hammer at half-cock and loosen the two screws on the left side of the gun,tap on those screws to loosen the lock plate from the stock, then remove those two screws and the lock.
 The lock must be removed from the stock to free the nipple drum and barrel assembly.

[lostid]

Now.
 Remove that long trigger plate screw from the top/rear of the barrel. Don't worry about the trigger plate or the trigger guard,, they'll stay put.

 Gently pull/twist/tug/bend all at the same time and remove the "pinned" barrel/forestock section from the butt section. There is a brass plate between and two(2) steel "guide" pins holding those sections together.

 You CAN remove the drum from the barrel for cleaning and inspection and/or turn the drum to allow proper alignment of nipple too hammer fall.

 DO NOT remove the breech plug or otherwise de-breech this barrel!

[jgalar]

I don't think I would go through all the trouble of tearing the whole gun down. Try to clean up the bore, the ignition channel and free up the lock enough for the hammer to drop. Try shooting the gun. If it doesn't shoot worth a darn make it a wall hanger. If it still shoots OK then take it down and clean it up. No use spending a bunch of time on it if it is a worn out POS.

If you remove the lock mounting screws use a wire or similar to push them out. The spring for loading rod retention is probably held in by these screws. If you pull out the screws without something to hold the spring in place you will most likely need to drive out the stock pins to reset it. As rusty as you say the gun is you may not be able to remove the pins without breaking anything if at all.

[captchee]

You CAN remove the drum from the barrel for cleaning and inspection and/or turn the drum to allow proper alignment of nipple too hammer fall.

 i can not recommend this . many of the production gun us a pressure fit application for screwing in the breech plug and drum bolsters .. will it come off yes . will you get it back on properly , maybe , most likely not without damaging it . , replacements are available

 another point here that
 As to this being silly .
 Commonly a Jukar is  not a high end rifle to say the least . However if you would have read  this mans post you will find that  the stock is not a 2 piece stock but a one piece.
So now care to tell us why that is ?
 How about that  if this is correct  the most common size jukars were in 45 cal  and a few lat 50  cal but all had 2 piece stocks ? Care to peculate on that .

 None of us have  seen this rifle but taking all that in to account this could be a prototype with a good Spanish button barrel on it  and correct in form  unlike its later  production  runs .

 Lastly I want to say this . Just because  a given weapon is not a  custom gun or a reproduction by chambers, the house brothers  or any other well know maker , but a CVA , traditions , junker , wit mate , ultra high  does not mean its junk  . Even though it’s a higher probability of it being so .

 In fact I can tell you I have more high end  Pedersoli Cra@ come  to me to be fixed then any of the old CVA   or jukar

 Oh uuuum m off that point

 don’t take the bolster off , clean it up as  instructed and  you just may find you have something that you just might want to keep [/code]

[field989]

well if you have a 50 cal is .500 bore and 45 is .450. Bore however this does not mean your rifle is not say a 48 cal . there were such things and many originals fall in off gages or calibers
50 is just a smidgen over 1/2 inch

It seems to be 1/16" smaller than a 1/2"

the hammer will fall.

It is just that the barrel and nipple are very rusty. every thing else seems okay.[/quote]

also debreech the barrel what does that mean?

[lostid]

Thank you
 never said it was junk. I own one, and worked on a several,after spending some tyme "tuning" the used firearm I have, it's my candle shooter. matter of fact, it's a fine shooter all-around,,a good gun I'd take afield for game as well as paper or novelty targets at the local vous'. :grin:
 
 The long gun Jukar is/was a split stock gun.(period) Because it was an inexpensive gun and frowned upon by the "elite" of blackpowder shooters and vous' participants for years, many folks went to great lengths to cover that split to save face or other wise trying to fit in. I've seen rawhind covers, brass sheet covers, wood putty and paint, and epoxy used to hide this identifiable aspect of the Jukar/CVA/Traditions gun of the same make.

 It's a simple firearm. The Gentlemen poster that recieved this gun doesn't know about it. Breaking the gun down to it's simple components will help to understand.
So,,,
 The lock is independant of itself. no lock plate screws hold lock components together. nor is there a loading rod retention spring.
 Pins hold the barrel to the fore section. taking those out IS a bad idea, unless properly padded and clamped the wood will very likey splitter at the exit point.
 On these barrels, the breech is inserted first, it is threaded LONG into the barrel. Too achieve the proper pressure acceptance the hole for the drum is then bored/threaded through the breech threads and into the opposing side if the barrel,(like a deadbolt). The drum can be removed and replaced. But because the breech threads have been comprimised buy the hole through them,, they WILL tear the barrel breech threads beyond repair if removed!
 Adjustment of this style drum-breech is a constant. the hammer fall always and inevitbly(spl?) forces the nipple forward causing the hammer to improperly strike the nipple and causing mis-fires.(I've seen it a thousand tymes).
 It's a good gun. Even if the bore is rusted,,they have,deep cut lands and grooves, very foregiving :grin: It's a leaf spring lock, whose components where stamped out,,yet with dis-assembly, proper polish and lube, is quick and reliable.
 There's more. We just gotta dispell all the myth and mystery

[lostid]

Thank you
 never said it was junk. I own one, and worked on a several,after spending some tyme "tuning" the used firearm I have, it's my candle shooter. matter of fact, it's a fine shooter all-around,,a good gun I'd take afield for game as well as paper or novelty targets at the local vous'. :grin:
 
 The long gun Jukar is/was a split stock gun.(period) Because it was an inexpensive gun and frowned upon by the "elite" of blackpowder shooters and vous' participants for years, many folks went to great lengths to cover that split to save face or other wise trying to fit in. I've seen rawhind covers, brass sheet covers, wood putty and paint, and epoxy used to hide this identifiable aspect of the Jukar/CVA/Traditions gun of the same make.

 It's a simple firearm. The Gentlemen poster that recieved this gun doesn't know about it. Breaking the gun down to it's simple components will help to understand.
So,,,
 The lock is independant of itself. no lock plate screws hold lock components together. nor is there a loading rod retention spring.
 Pins hold the barrel to the fore section. taking those out IS a bad idea, unless properly padded and clamped the wood will very likey splitter at the exit point.
 On these barrels, the breech is inserted first, it is threaded LONG into the barrel. Too achieve the proper pressure acceptance the hole for the drum is then bored/threaded through the breech threads and into the opposing side if the barrel,(like a deadbolt). The drum can be removed and replaced. But because the breech threads have been comprimised buy the hole through them,, they WILL tear the barrel breech threads beyond repair if removed!
 Adjustment of this style drum-breech is a constant. the hammer fall always and inevitbly(spl?) forces the nipple forward causing the hammer to improperly strike the nipple and causing mis-fires.(I've seen it a thousand tymes).
 It's a good gun. Even if the bore is rusted,,they have,deep cut lands and grooves, very foregiving :grin: It's a leaf spring lock, whose components where stamped out,,yet with dis-assembly, proper polish and lube, is quick and reliable.
 There's more. We just gotta dispell all the myth and mystery

[lostid]

Thank you
 never said it was junk. I own one, and worked on a several,after spending some tyme "tuning" the used firearm I have, it's my candle shooter. matter of fact, it's a fine shooter all-around,,a good gun I'd take afield for game as well as paper or novelty targets at the local vous'. :grin:
 
 The long gun Jukar is/was a split stock gun.(period) Because it was an inexpensive gun and frowned upon by the "elite" of blackpowder shooters and vous' participants for years, many folks went to great lengths to cover that split to save face or other wise trying to fit in. I've seen rawhind covers, brass sheet covers, wood putty and paint, and epoxy used to hide this identifiable aspect of the Jukar/CVA/Traditions gun of the same make.

 It's a simple firearm. The Gentlemen poster that recieved this gun doesn't know about it. Breaking the gun down to it's simple components will help to understand.
So,,,
 The lock is independant of itself. no lock plate screws hold lock components together. nor is there a loading rod retention spring.
 Pins hold the barrel to the fore section. taking those out IS a bad idea, unless properly padded and clamped the wood will very likey splitter at the exit point.
 On these barrels, the breech is inserted first, it is threaded LONG into the barrel. Too achieve the proper pressure acceptance the hole for the drum is then bored/threaded through the breech threads and into the opposing side if the barrel,(like a deadbolt). The drum can be removed and replaced. But because the breech threads have been comprimised buy the hole through them,, they WILL tear the barrel breech threads beyond repair if removed!
 Adjustment of this style drum-breech is a constant. the hammer fall always and inevitbly(spl?) forces the nipple forward causing the hammer to improperly strike the nipple and causing mis-fires.(I've seen it a thousand tymes).
 It's a good gun. Even if the bore is rusted,,they have,deep cut lands and grooves, very foregiving :grin: It's a leaf spring lock, whose components where stamped out,,yet with dis-assembly, proper polish and lube, is quick and reliable.
 There's more. We just gotta dispell all the myth and mystery

[captchee]

The long gun Jukar is/was a split stock gun.(period)

 and your welcome  But

sorry , not so  the first ones from Junkar , Numrich, liberty, international arms  were all  full stock and one peice  and all of the  the same design  with different patch boxes .
even the original CVA were one piece and had very good Sheron or Douglas barrels on them .

  for a side note for those interested the problem wasn’t that the stock were  on later models 2 piece  as there are original of  both  rifles and smoothbores with 2 piece stocks . the problem is the way  all the companies listed above put them together when the went to the 2 piece design

On these barrels, the breech is inserted first, it is threaded LONG into the barrel. Too achieve the proper pressure acceptance the hole for the drum is then bored/threaded through the breech threads and into the opposing side if the barrel,(like a deadbolt). The drum can be removed and replaced. But because the breech threads have been comprimised buy the hole through them,, they WILL tear the barrel breech threads beyond repair if removed!
Adjustment of this style drum-breech is a constant. the hammer fall always and inevitbly(spl?) forces the nipple forward causing the hammer to improperly strike the nipple and causing mis-fires.(I've seen it a thousand tymes).

 if this was the case with you rifle then it was not a stock rifle and had been worked on . CVA and junkar  pressure fit their breech plugs . IE they have a slight taper and are inserted under pressure while being threaded . The   drum or bolster is inserted the same way and if yours need constant adjusting it because it does not fit properly  and needs replaced .

 Some  advice that you can use or not , its up to you

 if yours is as loose as you say  I would have the common courtesy to let folks know  who are standing on that side of you while you shoot .  Having the bolster that loose is  worse then having a loose fitted nipple  as when  it comes out , and one day it will the person standing next to you is the one to get hurt not you

 A pinned for stock is not a problem taking off . Ever rifle I build to exclude  half stock have pinned for stock and during the building process the barrels are set and removed at least a 100 times or more .
 Thats with correct stock which have much less wood then a production gun “ period”
 You just don’t  put the pins in or take them out with a pair of vice grips or  a 5lb splitting maul

[harryo]

I have just received a muzzleloader, it is rusted very bad and never shot.
It seems to be either a .50 caliber or something smaller(I measured the bore to get a rough estimate on caliber it was 1/16 smaller than 1/2 of a inch)

It says JUKAR 0011707(or 0011757 I cant tell because of rust) then it says spain.
the stock extends to the end of the barrel


ANY INFO WELCOME

I have one of these that is like new.  I gave one to my father-in-law as a Christmas present 27 years ago and he hung it on the wall and never shot it.  When he died last year, my mother-in-law gave it back to me.  It appears your rifle is a .45cal, as is mine, and it seems like that might have been the only caliber it was available in when I purchased mine 27 years ago.  I also believe your rifle is the two piece stock and you just doesn't realize it.

As captchee and lostid said, it isn't a high end rifle.  I think I only paid about $100 for it new.  The fit and finish on mine isn't that bad,  but the lock and trigger leave a lot to be desired  The trigger a cheap stamped out thing with rough edges as are the internal parts of the lock.   Trigger pull was atrocious.  There is a screw through the tumbler that can be turned in to adjust how much the sear engages the tumbler but everthing is so rough that when you adjust it enough to get a reasonable trigger pull, the engagement is so slight that it would be dangerous.  A hard knock would disengage the sear and drop the hammer.  However, with quite a bit of work polishing up all the parts of the trigger and lock, I was able to get mine to the point where it was pretty shootable.  The trigger pull is still heavier than I would like but it is acceptable.  I can get mine to shoot 3-4" groups, from 50 yds, at the bench, and it would probably do better if I could get the trigger pull .a bit lighter and smoother.  Another small negative is that it has a really short length of pull, just over 12".

If you can get the bore cleaned up and are willing to do some work on the lock and trigger, you can probably get it to shoot pretty good.  However, if the barrel is junk, I don't know if I would spend the money and time to replace it, unless it has some sentimental value.  I don' know what a new barrel would cost, if you find one, but I, personaly, would look to out the money into a good, used rifle of better quality, like a T/C or Lyman/Investarms.

[captchee]

HARRY
 makes a good point . it could be a two piece stock thats don properly and then you wouldn’t know it was a two piece . Also I found no  listing for 50 cal rifles for Junkers in my books . This doesn’t mean they didn’t make one it just means my catalogs don’t show them .

 these companies  as i alluded to before joined their stocks in several ways , non correct  based on original but never the less workable .

 CVA  had a few  production runs where the joint was back just in front of the lock some . they covered it up with a wide brass band .
 later most  moved them center to the four stock and either  had a RR  barrel placed so as to draw the attention away or  used a small brass plate  like many use today to  make the impression of an inlay .

 However you could also have a one piece stock  all of the companies offered it. I have went through some of my old catalogs and it seems from the description that many if not most of the kits were 2 piece but  here area few photos from articles showing one piece . Notice they all are very  similar.

 I myself believe that out of every conversation we should get some knowledge  and I found something interesting that I didn’t know while digging up these photos .  Another point here that we should take note of .  I did not realize CVA  also had production runs of  rifles with improved breech with snail bolsters . I have found  a few photos of rifles that have them ,  found that interesting any way . Here you go , some early photos , notice the patch boxes  as well as the price

 these are als from the 1974 guns and amo cataloge .
 i have included the CVA with a 2 piece stock  which is also listed a a single stock. some others also show flintlocks but are also available in caplock .
 also  notice the resemblance form navy arms , the Dixie gun works rifle and the lower cost rifles at that time .
 If  any one needs I can post photos of the one piece CVA and Junkers. Im just trying to show the resemblance across the board of the rifles at the time and that  

[field989]

IM sorry I just took a look at it and... it is a 2 piece.

the barrel band threw me off(it is a little brass strip that goes from one side of the barrel to the other)
I never noticed it because of how small it is (like a 16th of a inch)

[captchee]

yep then its one of the later jukar models  not one of the early ones