Author Topic: New guy needs some advice.  (Read 1544 times)

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Offline Eddiehorror

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« on: March 15, 2006, 10:39:21 AM »
Hi all my name is ed. I have been involved with black powder since Â’00 I have learned many trick of the trade and I have become the man to go to with a gun problem in my small circle of enthusiasts. We are Primarily Pirate and renaissance actors who use the guns to fire only powder and a bread or tissue wad. Well in this line of work I have come across a cannon and it was bliss. It is a small yard cannon I bought second hand. She was loyal and loud for years and this Sunday past, it happened. I had heard that if you try a small amount of sand in the barrel it will make a louder bang. I loaded powder and wad then a small bit of sand. Needless to say I would not be here if it went smoothly. It went to h#ll very fast. The breech did not crack or breakÂ….it burst into about a dozen nice little razor sharp piecesÂ…no one THANK GOD was hurt. But it has made me ever so gun shy now. I can disassemble and reassemble my rifle and pistols with my eyes closed. I can tell you exactly how many grains they can take with maximum sound and minimum recoil. Practice and patience has led me this far.

But now I am a bit concerned about the cannon aspect. I have talked to many experts and no one has ever heard of sand. And some even recommended against it. Has anyone here heard of this as wadding?

The only positive is the company has replaced it with a new cannon. From Dixie gun. It is the ½ scale napoleon mc0606. has anyone used this barrel before? And more to the point can I please get some loading tips. Is Pyrodex RS ok to use? What if any wadding should I use? How much powder? Anyone who has experience with this barrel please help me out. I do not want to have another accident and I cannot bear to think about how bad it could have been..

Offline reddog

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« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2006, 11:45:48 AM »
WOW!! Ed that sounds pretty serius. How much powder did you use? I myself just got my first cannon. I starded with small loads first but I've never used sand. These guys in this forum are full of information.
"Catch A cannonball, now take me down the line. My bag is sinkin' low and I do believe it's time."

Offline Cat Whisperer

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« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2006, 12:27:51 PM »
Eddie -

Welcome to the board!  

As you well know, there's NOTHING like seeing a cannon explode to open one's eyes.

What does Dixie recommend?  That's a place to start.

Past that, measure the diameter of the bore and look to see if there's a powder chamber.  Post pictures if you can.

There are some good rules of thumb, and knowing the bore dimensions and powder chamber size (if present) will give a good starting point.

Folks here have heard me say that you have to know whether its a cannon or a bomb to which you're lighting the fuse.
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline Rickk

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« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2006, 12:52:29 PM »
How much of what kind of powder, and how much sand was in there?

By the way, was the bored lined with a steel liner or was there no liner in the barrel? What was the bore size?

Offline GGaskill

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« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2006, 01:10:17 PM »

Our cannon barrel is a half scale, high quality reproduction of this famous Napoleon cannon barrel. Cast from gray iron and weighs 150 pounds. The smooth bore has a 3/16" steel liner with a 2 1/4" bore dia.; 1/4" vent hole . Diameter is 5 1/2" at the breech, 4 1/2" at the muzzle with 2" trunnions. Trunnion length is 1 3/4" with a 5 5/8" spacing between the inside ends of the trunnions. Overall length is 36". Barrels are iron castings that require final finishing to obtain a smooth finish.  (from a Dixie Gun Works webpage)


Presumably this was/is your barrel.  An initial question is how much powder were you using?  Normally, for a blank charge, you put the powder in an aluminum foil powder bag and use no wad or additional material.  The usually recommended blank charges are offered under that assumption.  A charge with a projectile is usually recommended to be no more than half of the blank charge.  Wads and any other material placed in the bore ahead of the powder constitute a projectile, even if not a solid object.  All that mass (weight) has to be blown out of the bore and produces resistance to the expanding powder gas.  Adding mass to a maximum blank charge is asking for trouble as the pressure will increase significantly. 

Using the smaller charge weight recommended for shot along with a wad and some flour not to exceed the weight of a round iron shot of the diameter appropriate for the bore will probably produce as much noise as the maximum blank charge weight and use less powder.  Start with a small charge and work upward not to exceed the recommended maximum. 

This stuff works the same way as centerfire rifle ammunition--you can't add a heavier bullet to a maximum charge without the pressure going up.

You might also check this page about halfway down for Hern Iron Works' version of a Napoleon.
GG
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--Winston Churchill

Offline Rickk

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« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2006, 01:30:59 PM »
Hern most likely made the Dixie barrel.

Offline Kuntrykouple

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« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2006, 01:57:06 PM »
Ed,

I will start out  as always by saying this is entirely MY opinon and I have come to such an opinon from years of  constuction and firing of cannons and mortars. I would view sand  in the same way as I do cat litter  and I know people who use it religously. Both of which have the ability of being packed very tightly, and in a 2 1/4" bore  would take a sizable amount  to seal the breach. I use damp news paper when wadded is No larger than  the size of ball the cannon would fire if loaded with spherical shot, in this case a  wad of newspaper 2 1/4" in diameter It is then seated against the  powder NOT packed. This loading method has worked for me more times than I could count and the report is plenty loud. As far as powder goes 2oz in a 2 1/4" bore would be plenty enough by far. I am against cat litter, sand, clay, mud, matchbox cars, plastic army men, tin cans, rocks. ALL of which I have been told  people shoot in their cannons.
I personally do not use pyrodex, it is my belief pyrodex is a modern made powder it may burn cleaner than black powder but it also burns faster. I have  talked to Reps at Hodgdon and they suggested  cutting the loads in half if using pyrodex in lew of Black powder.
We use Goex and only Goex and in 15yrs of firing loads as large as 1lb in a 3" cannon have had no problems!

Hunter (dixie) can Replace your cannon ...They cannot replace your life! before loading any kind of projectile be it paper golfballs or  zinc shot instpect your barrel closely and think it out is there anyway this will bind up or get caught in the barrel, How much pressure might it take to push this out (in a Millisecond), will it be easier to  blow this out of the barrel or  for the barrel to burst.
As I said this is  just my opinion..
Missouri Cannon Works

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Offline GGaskill

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« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2006, 02:06:10 PM »
Forgot your Pyrodex question.  I would not use it.  It probably will not work in blank loads anyway.  It was half as powerful as black powder in my beercan mortar with a shot.
GG
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2006, 02:54:59 PM »
Quote from: Kuntrykouple

....
 I am against cat litter, sand, clay, mud, matchbox cars, plastic army men, tin cans, rocks. ALL of which I have been told  people shoot in their cannons....



How can you possibly be against using mud and rocks?  Just because the Army recommends using them to BLOW UP cannons so they can't be used by the enemy!
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline Eddiehorror

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« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2006, 03:36:21 PM »
The load was used in the cannon that blew up was 500gr or 1.1oz it hade a 1.5" bore and was 18" long. the load was packed with a bread wad. This has worked for years. this time we added sand to see a bang. it was a failure. The Dixie Barrel comes in tomorrow and with anyluck we will have a carriage built by saturday. I plan to start with 1oz and no wad and see what she says, the i will try 1oz with some bread. then 2 oz no wad. then 2oz with bread. if all these work i will pick the best sound and use that as the standard.

after it blew i saw that parts of the breech were as thin as 2/16" it was shocking to think this cast iron had never blown before. the gun from dixie has 1.5" of steel and iron all the way around the breech. so i assume that since i have used up to 2oz tightly packed in my old cannon. that this huge bohemoth should be able to handle the same loads.

the team that i am friends with has been using 1oz of pyrodex RS and a sand charge for the past few weeks with this same model cannon and have not had any problems. so I assume that 2 oz with a light tissue wad should be safe. And since the company has purchased me 5lbs of powder I am going to have to go through it.

for reference when i say 1oz i mean in 35mm film canister packed in tinfoil.

Offline MaxSmoke

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« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2006, 03:59:48 PM »
Ed,

Welcome to the board.  IÂ’m new here too.

IÂ’m a little unclear how the sand was added.  Was it mixed with the pyrodex or loaded after the bread wadding?
Tim

Offline Cat Whisperer

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« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2006, 04:09:54 PM »
Quote from: Eddiehorror

....
so i assume that since i have used up to 2oz tightly packed in my old cannon. that this huge bohemoth should be able to handle the same loads.
....
.


It's not necessarily the size, but the nature of the material - if it's lined, the liner is of steel, steel is more maliable, and much less brittle than cast iron - able to bend and flex without cracking.
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline Artilleryman

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« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2006, 04:12:33 PM »
Sounds like the barrel was cast with a sand core.   Cast barrels should be cast solid and drilled and sleeved.  Any other method is inviting trouble.  You were very lucky.  I shoot blank charges without wads from cannons.  Mortars usually don't do very well with blanks unless you use a lot of powder or a wad.  In a mortar all you need is a piece of cardboard cut to fit the bore (one piece).  

Pyrodex needs compression in order to work well.  I wouldn't use it for cannons or mortars.
Norm Gibson, 1st SC Vol., ACWSA

Offline Charcoal Burner

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« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2006, 04:33:16 PM »
Ed, I think you had a bit more powder in there than 500grn..you stated that you were using a 35mm film canister for your 1oz . so you were loading a full canister plus some if i'm correct to acheive your 1.1 oz .measure.   (My Bad) re-reading your post you were using pyrodex I would  measure your film canister I have two in front of me one holds 498 the other holds 536 grns of F and is a good 1/8 inch taller than the other. Mike
Even a blind squirrel gets a nut now and then,

Offline Rickk

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« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2006, 05:06:42 PM »
As I re-read everything said, the new barrel (from dixie - prolly a Hern barrel) is not the same as the one that blew up? Is that correct?

Offline Cannonmaker

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« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2006, 06:12:24 PM »
When test firing my cannons I weight the powder.  A plastic 35mm kodak film canister with the powder poured in level, not tapped or shook down, will hold 370 grs. of Pyrodex RS, or 501 grs. of fg Goex.  Goex has a higher density than Pyrodex,  and the  quanity of powder must be corrected from one to the other.

Due to the fact that Black Powder can be hard to find in some places, I give a Maxumium  recommed load using Pyrodex RS.  

When shooting a solute I use Pyrodex RS packed with lawn grass.  This makes no mess and gives a loud report, smoke and flame.

My tubes are all turned from solid stock, of  carbon or alloy steel.  I have not built anything larger than 1/3 scale as of yet, and the solid steel works out best for me.  Having a much greater yield strenght than cast I much perfer a steel tube.
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Offline Double D

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« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2006, 06:34:27 PM »
Questions?

Do you have photos of the remains? Please post.

Was the barrell lined?

Remember anything you put in the barrel is going affect pressure and if it leaves the barrel it will become a projectile!!

Listen to Artilleryman! Use a flat cardboard wad and nothing more.

Safety Gentlemen, Safety!  Eddie Horror has brough us one good safety lesson

Offline Double D

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« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2006, 12:24:50 AM »
Something to keep in mind about Pyrodex is apparently one of the combustion byproducts is (potassium?) perchlorate, which is highly hygroscopic and will cause rust immediately after firing if ambient humidity is higher than some quite low value
 
Quote

"Potassium Perchlorate. A poisonous crystalline compound, KClO[3], used as an oxidizing agent, a bleach, and a disinfectant and in making explosives, matches, and fireworks. It liberates chloride ions when  fired, which, when combined with sodium or potassium ions, create salt."

 
Normal BP salts are really nothing when compared to Pyrodex, which acts quite a bit more vigorously and rapidly.

I don't use it in anything anymore.  Black powder is to easy to get.  It may not be readily available in you area, but any of the Powder distributers will ship it to you. See the Cannon supplies list

Offline Eddiehorror

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« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2006, 03:52:59 AM »
No the Barrel I am replacing was nowhere near the size of the Dixie. My old one weighed about 13 lbs.

the insode of the barrel was rough and it would make sense that it was sand cast.

To explain the way we loaded in the past:

1. Measure one film canister of powder, and fill a premade Foil tube(made by rolling around a 1.5" dowel and sliding off). then fold the end closed.

2. Place charge in barrel and seat with ramrod.

3. Insert wadding, usually one hot dog bun. And pack tightly.

4. Pick with brass rod through vent hole.(usually this was a good way to tell if you were packed tight enough)

5. insert fuse.

6. light and yell Fire in the hole.

this has worked for us in these small cannons for years without incedent. i added the sand in from of the wad. it was a mistake. My question is this:

if this little cannon could handle these apparently large and compressed loads, how is it that a steel lined 1.5" cast iron breech can not? are lawn cannons stronger in some way?

also can anyone refer me to a small barrell maker something between 15-20" for under $200? i need to replace my little cannon for a gag we do on a regular basis.

Offline Rickk

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« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2006, 06:57:33 AM »
www.hernironworks.com (they probably made your new barrel) has a couple of $200-ish steel lined barrel configurations in the length you are looking for