Author Topic: progressive loaders  (Read 1303 times)

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Offline Heavyhaul

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« on: March 15, 2006, 01:28:30 PM »
I have been reloading for about 15 years now.  But  I have no experience with progressives.  I don't have a fortune to spend, but my patience is not good on little problems.  If something needs fixed, I will sork to fix it, but I do not want a press that is always problems.  What progressive would you recomend?  I will be loading 9mm and 357 right now.  Can I use standard dies to get all operations to function, or do I need a powder-thru die?  I'm kind of lost.  Any help would be appriciated.  Thanks.

Offline Forest T

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« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2006, 01:40:02 PM »
my recomendation would be a Dillon 550b they are guarentee if anything breaks they will send you the parts to fix it at no charge I have had mine about 8 years now and have loaded many thousands of rounds on it I have broke one spring and wore out one plastic piece that goes on the primer feed tube and all the parts were replaced for free  :D Forest T

Offline PaulS

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« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2006, 01:46:58 PM »
My experience (550) is that if you have no patience with things that need nearly constant attention you are better off with a single stage press.
I have had to check powder charges to make sure there were no double charges or missed charges - I have begun charging in a separate hand operation - I hand prime due to problems with primer feed and dirty tubes. For my hunting and carry rounds I use the single stage and only use the progressive for plinking rounds that don't need the accuracy. Since I don't shoot the 1000 rounds a month that I did when I was competing I find I have little need for the 550 and don't use it much anymore. I am going to hang on to it though - just in case.
PaulS

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Offline Heavyhaul

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« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2006, 02:00:16 PM »
I'm looking at presses and I hear such mixed reviews on the Lee.  The Dillon seems to be the investment.  I can deal with details, but I expect a product to do its job.  I shoot with 3 other people and I see a way to fund my shooting and give them a deal, but I can't do this with my single stage.  I have saved myself a ot of problems with the turret.  Just looking to upgrade.

Offline Haywire Haywood

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« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2006, 02:58:27 PM »
Quote from: PaulS
Since I don't shoot the 1000 rounds a month that I did when I was competing I find I have little need for the 550 and don't use it much anymore.


Yep, I bought mine when both my wife and I were shooting cowboy action. That lasted one season and now the 550 just collects dust.  I have gone back to my single stage also.

Ian
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Offline Heavyhaul

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« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2006, 04:04:05 PM »
Haywire, interested in selling, with book of course. :grin:

Offline Rum River

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« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2006, 04:43:49 PM »
I have owned my 550 about 16 years. A very versatile press that does what I want it to. For two years my wife and I loaded commercially on this machine, with a minimum of trouble.

The buzzer stopped working on the primer feed alarm, I needed a replacement return spring for the primer assembly, and the 1990 powder measure was upgraded to a more robust bell crank design. All of these were replaced by Dillon for no charge.

If you wish to start out loading ammunition single stage, the 550 allows you to do that, as it is not auto-indexing.

I load all of my ammunition on the 550, from pistol to long-range varmint, and they are all accurate.
Rum River

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Offline Heavyhaul

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« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2006, 05:10:48 PM »
I am completely new to progressive.  With this loader, do I get primer feed, Casing feed, and bullet feed, or am I wishing too much for  the price?

Offline Dusty Miller

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« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2006, 10:23:21 PM »
The basic unit has primer feed only but I believe they've come up with an optional bullet feed if memory serves me correctly, but it'll hit your pocketbook with a nasty slap.  The big problem with progressives that don't have auto indexing is the dreaded double charge.  I may have run a double charge thru my Colt Commander (not sure) but the potential is very high if you don't watch what you're doing VERY closely.
When seconds mean life or death, the police are only minutes away!

Offline Lloyd Smale

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« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2006, 10:55:04 PM »
my recomendation is that you buy a dillon square deal in 357 and a conversion for 9mm. To me a 550 isnt a press for learning to use a progressive or a press for anyone that isnt a very experienced loader. Its to easy to get in trouble with a press thats manually indexed. The 550s have been the cause of many gun blow up by double charging with fast burning powders. The square deal has a auto index that cures that problem and is faster to load with to boot. If you want to really step up a 650 with a bullet feed is the best set up out there. What i did for my set up and it works for me. Is i bouth 5 square deals in the calibers i use the most and then a 550 for everything else. that way when i want to laod say 38 specials i grab that press and but it on the quick change mount i made for my bench and its all set up powder charge is allreay right just add brass and bullets. It isnt a cheap way to go but it works for me. If i could have only one press it would be a 650. Hornady lock and loads arent bad units either but stay far away from those lee progressives. I have owned both of them and there junk in my opinion. I use alot of lee products but wouldnt waste another penny on one of there progressive presses.
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Offline Rum River

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« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2006, 04:12:32 AM »
Heavyhaul,

The 550, as stated by Dusty, comes standard with a primer feed. Dillon now has a case feeder available as an additional option for $230. A bullet feeder has been designed by an after-market company, but it's VERY expensive (the one I saw at the SHOT show was at least $400) and the design hasn't been absolutely proven to work perfectly.

If you're only going to load for pistol calibers, I agree with Lloyd that the Square Deal might be all you require. It does not load any rifle calibers, and the dies are NOT industry standard dimension, you have to buy the proprietary Dillon dies. That said, it does have the auto-indexing, is lower priced that the 550, and produces very accurate ammunition.

As far as double-charging cases with a manually indexed press, yes that possibility exists.

As to:

"The 550s have been the cause of many gun blow up by double charging with fast burning powders."

how would the loader know that was the cause? There can be many reasons why a firearm blows up, are we correct to say that every time it occurs with a cartridge loaded on a manually indexed progressive that it was because of a double charge?

If an operator is loading on a 550, and forgets to index, that same operator is also trying to put a second bullet into a case that already has one. If that's all the more observant the operator is, I don't think loading on a single stage press is a good idea either.
Rum River

"It was a FRIENDLY fight".     "Hmph, I've never been in one a them."

Offline Questor

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« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2006, 04:41:58 AM »
Adding a bit of perspective to this discussion is the fact that the Dillon 550 is the world's most popular progressive press and is used annually to make many millions of rounds of ammo.

The fundamentals of reloading still apply, regardless of what machine you use: No distractions. Well developed process.
Safety first

Offline Dusty Miller

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« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2006, 06:58:35 AM »
Well said, Questor.
When seconds mean life or death, the police are only minutes away!

Offline Questor

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« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2006, 07:48:18 AM »
One thing I have found to be a good part of my process is to position myself so I can see the amount of powder in each case as it leaves the powder station and enters the bullet seating station. Others I know to make lots of handgun ammo do a variation of the same thing. Some mount a mirror so they can see it, others shine especially bright light on it. It's an important consideration.
Safety first

Offline Haywire Haywood

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« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2006, 12:04:19 PM »
Quote from: Heavyhaul
Haywire, interested in selling, with book of course. :grin:


Hehe... thanks, but like Paul, I'm holding onto it "just in case"  :-D

Ian
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Offline Heavyhaul

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« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2006, 05:05:34 PM »
I was watching E-bay and the dillon presses are going for what a Honady lock-n-load costs new.  I understand the quality.  I'm just trying to make this economical.  If the casing feed was a simple feed on the Hornady like Lee has, I think the decision would be pretty easy.  Is the hornady primer similar to RCBS?  I really like the Lee primer.  I wish that we could build our own.  Standard dies, Lee primer and case feed, bullet feed and a press that actually works, a person could make a million.  Even if it is priced at less than that. :-D

Offline DaveinOakwoodGA

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« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2006, 03:52:19 AM »
Heavyhaul,

I owned a 550 and sold it.  I bought a Hornady Lock N Load.  My best friend owns a 650.  I think I can answer your questions about a comparison between the Dillons and the Hornady.

"]I was watching E-bay and the dillon presses are going for what a Honady lock-n-load costs new.  I understand the quality."

1.  You can buy a Hornady Lock N Load for less money than you can buy a Dillon RL550B.  When you do, you'll get a press that's every bit the equal of the Dillon XL650 in quality, speed, quality and customer service.  I know, because I have owned a Dillon 550 and have operated my buddy's 650 on a regular basis.  The Hornady (Like the Dillons when they first came out.) had some initial issues in presses with serial numbers below 7000.  These have all been resolved with design changes and now the presses coming out are boringly reliable.  So bottom line, you get 650 performance (with slightly better versatility and powder measure) for less than the cost of a 550.

2.  As far as quality goes, I've found the Hornady method of changing dies to be simpler, faster and allows you to change out a single die without changing the whole set up (I also use the Lock N Load bushings on my Lee classic cast single stage press, sold my Rock Chucker, as the Lee was better.), I've found the Hornady powder measure to be superior in performance with all types of powders, I've found the primer dispense system to be about the same as Dillon's, I've found the shellplates allow for simpler and faster changes of caliber and I've found the press to be generally heavier and stronger.  Once adjusted, the Hornady stays adjusted.   The only adjustments are the feed pawls (simple hex head screw adjustment, my daughter could adjust it easily), the case activated powder measure (easy to do as well) height for the appropriate caliber (You can buy additional bases to set up for each caliber, but I haven't found the need, takes me all of 2 minutes when I need to do it.) and die settings.  If you can set up a die in a press, you can easily set up the Hornady to load.  My buddy, who owns a 650, after seeing me set up my Hornady said:  "If they can't set up and adjust the Lock N Load, they don't have enough mechanical aptitude to own a progressive press and they shouldn't disassemble their guns to clean them."  

3.  Of course, owning a progressive press is about producing loaded cartridges.  With the Lock N Load AP, if you go SLOW as a turtle and don't have a casefeeder, you can load 400 rounds an hour while piddling around.  If you work at it a little bit, 500 is no problem.  Add extra primer filler tubes or one of those Frankford Arsenal primer tube fillers and you're over 500/hour.  Add the casefeeder, go slow and you're doing 650 an hour.  If you want to do a thousand, you can, but you're problem will be the same as the Dillon 650, keeping the beast fed with primers and powder.  The thing gulps in reloading components and spits out cartridges with boringly fast reliability.


"I'm just trying to make this economical.  If the casing feed was a simple feed on the Hornady like Lee has, I think the decision would be pretty easy."

The case feeder is like the Dillon.   But here's a thought:  Do you need to produce more than 400 cartridges per hour?  If so and you don't want to spring for the case feeder, perhaps you can get the parts for the feeder mechanism and tube (without the motor and hopper), then adapt a Lee hopper to the tube, as I saw one fellow do successfully with his Dillon 650.  Necessity is the mother of invention.  I see no reason not to adapt good stuff from other brands when you can.


"Is the hornady primer similar to RCBS?"

The Hornady Lock N Load primer feed system is very similar to the Dillon primer system.  It is tube based with a reasonably thick steel shield like the Dillon and uses a feed pawl feed that separates the location of the primer insertion into the cartridge by several inches from the stack of waiting primers.

"I really like the Lee primer."

I'm not sure what the Lee primer is you're referring to, but I can assure you the Hornady priming system on the Lock N Load's is boringly reliable and easy to adjust.  (With those members of the "Total Mechanical Klutz Society" excluded, of course. I advise those gentlemen to buy factory loaded cartridges.  That said, if my daughter can adjust it......what does it say about their not being able to?)

"I wish that we could build our own.  Standard dies, Lee primer and case feed, bullet feed and a press that actually works, a person could make a million."

I think most every single reloading company is doing quite well financially that sells a progressive press.  That said, if you do a little thinking, you can adapt stuff from other presses to fit the one you own.  The fella I sold my 550 to has a Hornady Lock N Load powder measure on it.  I have used Lee die sets with a Lee Pro Auto Disk measure on my Hornady to save money on dies.  I have an RCBS lock out die to protect me from under/over charges, but wouldn't hesitate to put a Dillon powder detection system on if I had an issue with the RCBS lockout die.  I also modified my ejector spring on my Hornady so I could use a Lee Factory Crimp die in station 6.  (Took me five minutes to bend 4 90 degree bends to move the location of the ejector spring "bar" enough to clear the Lee FCD.  I bought an extra so if I had problems, I could reinstall the original.  The modified spring has been working there every since.  The spare I bought is in the cigar box I have for spare parts.
 

Regards,

Dave
Dave In Flowery Branch, GA

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Offline SLAVAGE

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« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2006, 06:34:17 AM »
dave

pic please :0) an a few close ups of were the lee FCD is an the bends you made too make it fit

thanks
dave lol

Offline DaveinOakwoodGA

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« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2006, 02:30:39 PM »
"pic please :0) an a few close ups of were the lee FCD is an the bends you made too make it fit"

SLAVAGE,

I apologize, but I don't have a digital camera, so I can't post a picture.  But I can give a pretty good description of how to do the mod.


1.  put a 1/8th inch piece of drill rod into a vice to use as a fulcrum.

2.  Keep the bends on a parallel plane to the shellplate.

3.  The four ninety degree bends should form a square "U" with the bottom of the "U" pointing towards the primer feed.

4.  two of the bends are close to where the screw mount for the ejector spring is.

5.  Two of the bends are fairly close to where the other end of the spring fits into the groove above the shellplate.

6.  the two bends at each respective end should be close to one another, displacing the location of the wire "just enough" to allow clearance for the FCD without moving any more than you have to.

7.  When bending, keep in mind the angle of the bend relative to the loaded cartridge you want to eject is important.

I hope the above steps make sense.  The basic idea is simply to displace the bar "just enough" to clear the FCD while still having the right angle to case the case to slide out of the shellplate.  BTW, if worse comes to worse, it's not a big deal to just eject manually with a flick of the fingers when you're putting the next bullet on top of the next powder charged case.

Hope this helps,

Dave
Dave In Flowery Branch, GA

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Offline Heavyhaul

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« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2006, 04:27:59 PM »
Thank you much Dave.  I know that you put some time and thought into that post.  I like the honest approach to the topic.  I will put your information to use.  I just couldn't figure how I was going to explain to my wife the cost to set up a 550 for two calibers.  I also knew that she would investigate the vulgar language coming from the basement if I bought a progressive and got tortured by the thing and it wouldn't be faster than my single stage.  After hearing from the Dillon guys, I just want to wish you luck on that post. :D

Offline DaveinOakwoodGA

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« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2006, 06:21:58 AM »
Heavyhaul,

You're welcome.  I'm just an old engineering type that deals in facts related to manufacturing equipment, which is basically what all reloading machines are -- manufacturing equipment.

BTW, after going back down and looking at how I did my wire, I came up with a better way to adjust the ejector spring to handle Lee Factory Crimp dies.

1.  Install the appropriate shellplate for the caliber you wish to use the Lee FCD.

2.  Install the die in the lock and load bushing, click it into place on the press.

3.  Adjust the die for correction operation, per Lee's instructions.
4  With the press raised so the shellplate is touching the Lee FCD, make note of where the edge of the crimp die is that needs to clear, this will usually be just inside the "radius" of the "shell holder" portion of the shellplate, if that makes sense.  

5.  You can bend the loop end of the ejector spring wire where it fits into the groove of the shellplate retainer/machined washer and you can bend and you have some mechanical adjustment to "move" the location of the ejector spring wire out of the area I mentioned in step four.  You need to move the ejector wire towards the primer system "just enough" to clear the Lee FCD.

6.  You also want to maintain the original angle running from the shellplate to the mounting location of the spring as much as possible.

7.  Finally, after you're done making any bends, use some sandpaper to remove any dings and nicks you've put in the wire, along with polishing the wire to allow the case to slide along the ejector wire smootlhly.

I hope this helps, in case my original post didn't.  There's always more than one way to skin a cat or modify a cartridge manufacturing machine, as it were.

Regards,

Dave
Dave In Flowery Branch, GA

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Offline Steve P

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« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2006, 04:12:16 PM »
Who makes the best car?

10 responses will likely get you 10 different cars.

I had a lee 1000.  After a few years of making due with it, I sold it and bought a Dillon 550.  I got a great deal on a Dillon Square Deal, saw how it worked, and traded it in for another 550.  I have two 550s on my bench.  I load thousands of rounds a year and have never double charged a load.  I watch what I am doing, keep it properly lubed, and have never had a problem in about 12 years.  

I have a Dillon Square Deal on the way.  After using the 550s for many years, I was looking for a way to quickly size some of my brass.  With the auto indexing, it should be slick to size a few hundred pistol brass in just a few minutes.  

I have to make the statement on Dillon equipment.  If it isn't working right, you don't have it set up right.  I load for over 30 different calibers on mine.  Never have a problem if press is clean and lubed and my dies are adjusted properly.

Steve   :D
"Life is a play before an audience of One.  When your play is over, will your audience stand and applaude, or stay seated and cry?"  SP 2002

Offline DaveinOakwoodGA

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« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2006, 09:09:19 AM »
Quote from: Steve P
Who makes the best car?

10 responses will likely get you 10 different cars.

I have to make the statement on Dillon equipment.  If it isn't working right, you don't have it set up right.  I load for over 30 different calibers on mine.  Never have a problem if press is clean and lubed and my dies are adjusted properly.

Steve   :D


I would have to agree with the 10 different answer statement.  And the statement about the Dillon and it's setup applies to the Hornady as well.  Just in case anyone thinks I don't like Dillons, I do.  I think Dillons are fine presses and I enjoy loading on my buddy's 650.  I just found the Hornady to be a "650 for less than the price of a 550" and I enjoy reloading on it just as much.

Regards,

Dave
Dave In Flowery Branch, GA

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Offline Heavyhaul

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« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2006, 03:18:52 PM »
I agree with the best car statement.  I was looking at it more like:  I need to haul a 2 tons of dirt 10 miles, on a fairly regular basis.  I need a 1- ton, could make do with a 3/4, definately not a 1/2, and no need for a tractor trailer.  I guess I wanted to go as cheap as possible with out nightmares.
     Any way, I have a lock-n-load on the way from Midway.  They were having a sale. :grin:

Offline Steve P

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« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2006, 04:32:41 PM »
Quote from: Heavyhaul
I agree with the best car statement.  I was looking at it more like:  I need to haul a 2 tons of dirt 10 miles, on a fairly regular basis.  I need a 1- ton, could make do with a 3/4, definately not a 1/2, and no need for a tractor trailer.  I guess I wanted to go as cheap as possible with out nightmares.
     Any way, I have a lock-n-load on the way from Midway.  They were having a sale. :grin:


Cool,

Enjoy that press.  There are some really knowledgable guys on here to help you if any problems.  

Steve   :D
"Life is a play before an audience of One.  When your play is over, will your audience stand and applaude, or stay seated and cry?"  SP 2002

Offline Savage

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« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2006, 05:53:36 AM »
I traded off my Dillon 550 years ago. If I were to go back to a Dillon, it would have to be a 650, and then only if I wanted to spend $1000 or so for all the options to make the press usable as a progressive. After using a friend's Lee Loadmaster, I ordered one to replace the Pro 1000 in .45ACP that I have been using for years. The Loadmaster is a sturdy "O" frame that comes standard with dies/owder measure/case feed/ and auto indexing for $220 w/shipping from Midway. For around $50 I can add the auto bullet feeder if I want. Caliber conversions can be had for under a $100. I have an old Rockchuker, that was my first press and a Lee 4 station turret press for the other calibers that I load in smaller quanties. If I had bench space available, I'd buy another Loadmaster in 9mm for volume loading in that caliber.
Savage
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Offline Heavyhaul

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« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2006, 04:54:25 PM »
I don't know what it is with Lee, but I seem to hear 3 to 1 bak toward them.  I was considering two load masters to save money and confusion.  I heard too much bad so I bought a Lock-n-load.  It seemed to have the easiest conversion.  I haven't loaded with it, YET.  It feels very solid and I have been checking it out... nice set up.  I would like to have auto bullet and casing feed, pretty pricey or an adaption, and I'm not crazy about the primer tubes.  The only alternative is Lee and we have already beaten that horse.  Thanks Steve P, set up was very simple.  The way it should be. :grin:

Offline DaveinOakwoodGA

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« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2006, 01:22:41 AM »
Heavyhaul,

Unfortunately, tube fed primer systems seem to be the most dependable out there.  That said, if you want to speed up you primer loading, get a Frankford Arsenal primer loader.  They're around 32 bucks or so at midwayusa.  Get a couple extra of their trays that go on the thing and preload them with say, 300 rounds while putting a hundred primers in your loading tube to start.  Remove the black plastic tip at the top of the primer system and feed directly into the primer loading tube.  I think you'll find it's mucher quicker than loading the individual primer tubes.

If you only want to reload 200 at a time, get a plastic primer flip tray (I like the RCBS one.) and first, fill your primer loading tube, then keep an extra 200 in your primer feeding tube.  This is what I do at the present, because it always seems like after 30 minutes, something else comes up I wanna do and I am not shooting as much due to work taking up a lot of my time.
Dave In Flowery Branch, GA

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James Elmer Dixson, USMC 1939-1945

Offline Lloyd Smale

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« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2006, 09:03:40 AM »
If i went to single stage loading again there wouldnt be enough time if i never slept again.
blue lives matter

Offline DaveinOakwoodGA

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« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2006, 05:26:24 PM »
Lloyd,

I soooo totally hear ya.  I remember when I was shooting hundred yard matches every weekend in the spirng and summer to develop skills to shoot high power with.  I'd work my can off all week long trying to load enough ammo (102 rounds apiece for the match) for both myself and my (then) 15 year old son.  I had an RCBS Jr. single stage.  Good little press, but slow as the dickens.  

Now, I have the Hornady Lock N Load and can load 400 rounds in an hour no sweat going slowly.  My son is a junior in college at UNC Chapel Hill (Where he started a gun club, right in the middle of the famed liberal bastion of "Commie Hill" North Carolina I'm proud to report.)  And here I sit, with lots more reloading power, but not having nearly so much fun without the kid there, odd how that works.

When he comes home, he's wanting to "borrow" my Garand to shoot matches he's managed to locate through his associations with the NRA and the Sir Walter Raleigh Gun Club, among others.  He also wants to "borrow" one of my reloading presses so he can afford the ammo.  Why am I hearing the words "keep" when he says "borrow?"  Does anyone know?  I think of buying a Lee Classic Turret press and giving him that.

Regards,

Dave
Dave In Flowery Branch, GA

"Son, if you wish your country to remain free, you must do what is necessary to keep it so."
James Elmer Dixson, USMC 1939-1945