Author Topic: New Guy Needs Some Honest Advice  (Read 3711 times)

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Offline lightning

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New Guy Needs Some Honest Advice
« on: April 21, 2006, 05:13:17 PM »
I've really enjoyed reading all the information in this forum over the last several weeks.  You guys have huge amounts of information and I appreciate you sharing it in this forum.  But I'm a little confused and could use some good honest advice.  After being a gun/sword collector for 30 years, and a pistol/rifle shooter for about the same, I have finally felt compelled to own a blackpowder cannon.  I bought a half scale 1841 6 pounder, cast iron, with a DOM liner cast in it that has a seam.  I've been told the liner itself will easily handle pressures of shooting this cannon.  Is this true?

Here is where the confusion comes in though.  Listed in one of the stickies are several cannon manufacturers who build their cannons this way(i.e. cast iron with a steel liner placed inside before casting.  In fact the cannons sold by Dixie Gunworks appear to be made this way.  But all of the postings seem to indicate that if I shoot this cannon I am an idiot and being dangerous if I shoot this thing, since it is not cast and then bored with a seamless liner.  Or maybe it has to be solid steel turned on a lathe?  Does anybody have REAL stories about Dixie Gunworks cannons exploding?  Or from any of the other manufacturers that build their cannons in this manner?  Is it really dangerous to shoot this thing?

I remember when I first started shooting pistols the old guys would say that you were taking a chance if you shot anything other than a Colt or a Smith & Wesson.  But when I was young and poor I put thousands of rounds thru Taurus's and Rossi' and Ruger's with no problem before I could afford the more expensive guns.  Is this the same thing here?  I don't have 2 or 3 thousand dollars for a cannon barrel.  But I can afford $400 to $600, and can build my own carriage.  Looking for some good honest advice.  I probably won't shoot this thing more than a few times anyway.  By the way, I am a firearms instructor/ranger master and I feel I normally err on the side of safety.  I welcome any and all comments.  I will post photos of my cannon in progress soon.  Thanks,  Lightning

Offline Third_Rail

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« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2006, 05:29:14 PM »
DOM tubes don't have seams. Other than that, others may be able to help you - I deal only with small scale cannons.

Offline lightning

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DOM liner
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2006, 05:35:07 PM »
I am definitely showing my ignorance here then.  I've worked with wood but never with metal/steel/iron.  I was told this was DOM, but it definitely has a seam.  I don't really understand any of the differences but read that DOM was good and was told by the seller that this was DOM.  HHHmmmmmm.  Now I'm less sure than ever.
Lightning

Offline Double D

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New Guy Needs Some Honest Advice
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2006, 05:47:29 PM »
First welcome to the board. Glad you enjoy it.  

To your Questions.  First you need a copy of The More complete Cannoneer.  That book answers in detail graphically al your questions.

I will be very general in my response. First this is not a Ford vs Chevy, Colt vs Taurus issue at all.

It is a very real problem. Accidents do occur.  We have had at least one person post pictures of a seriously dangerous pipecored cannon on this board.   Here is the link to it  Pipe core Casting thread  Please note the company involved with the cannon in this thread did make good on the cannon.


First Welded steel liners.  Here is this from our FAQ's

Welded Steel Liners

You may have noted from time to time I warn against the use of welded seam barrel liners.

The issue isnÂ’t the strength welded tubing. Welded seamed tubing can be very strong. Your brand new cannon isnÂ’t going to burst on first firing because it has a welded seam liner.

It's the very nature of welds themselves that create the problem. Welding often leaves occlusions and micro-pores in the metal. These occlusions and micro pores can collect moisture and fouling.

When fired, particles of blackpowder fouling can be blasted into the micro-pores. The expansion of the metal from pressure and heat can allow these microscopic particles to be driven deep into the metal. When a wet swab is passed down the bore the steam it can further imbed this fouling, as well as cause condensation with in the occlusions. Over a period of time this fouling starts the corrosion process. The corrosion process takes place in the metal. The corrosion slowly grows until it is too weak to retain the pressures applied to it. It can result in anything from pin hole leak to a catastrophic rupture.

Under normal use it's a problem that might not manifest itself for years.

ThatÂ’s what happened with many Damascus Shotgun barrels. These guns were used for years before any problems occurred. I have seen several of these burst damascus barrels and there did not appear to be any visible corrosion on the inside or outside of the barrel. One characteristic I did note, on a couple of the barrels was a darkening of the pattern of the seam in the area where an occlusion was corroding.

I can recall the first black powder cannon I built. It was made from Schedule 80 welded tubing. When the rust started to bubble the paint over the seam we tossed that tube out and built another. We never had an accident. I donÂ’t know why. We were darn lucky.

Twenty years ago when I started serious shooting and building of model muzzleloading artillery one of the first warnings I received was about the use of welded seam tubing. DonÂ’t Use it, I was told!

Back then the magazine “The Muzzleloading Artilleryman” often had articles on cannon firing accidents. Poor casting techniques, lack of liners in cast guns and welded seam tubing failures were prominent. Even back then organizations like the North South Skirmish Association knew about the weakness in welded seam liners and had rules against their use.

So, you didnÂ’t know about the problem with using welded seam tubing for making a cannon barrel and to save money you bought a cannon with a welded steel liner. Should you get the cutting torch out and make scarp metal or maybe stand it on end and use it as an umbrella holder.

NO!

First you are going to have to deal with the ridge of weld going down the seam.

Inspect it. Make one of those inspection mirrors described in the More Complete Cannoneer. Look the seam over. Do you see any defects? Mark the muzzle of your gun right over the seam so you know where the seam is in your tube.

Ream the barrel. After reaming inspect the tube for defects. ThatÂ’s why you made the mark so you know where the seam is.

Next hone or polish the bore. Inspect the bore again looking for defects.

What do you do if you do find a defect? If itÂ’s a brand new unfired gun, I would contact the manufacturer.

You could also remove the liner and install a new liner.

If you donÂ’t find a defect, shoot your gun! Watch for signs of gas leakage between the liner and outer casting.

When you clean the gun, watch for water seepage from between the liner and casting. Make sure you use plenty of hot water to clean you bore.

After every shooting inspect the bore with your inspection mirror. Make sure your bore is clean and dry before you oil it and store the gun.

Several days after firing inspect you bore again, look for signs of discoloration and seepage along the seam. Wipe the discoloration with a dry white cloth and check the color. If you suspect a problem check it very thoroughly and if there is any doubt take the gun out of service until it is repaired.

If you are buying a gun with a lined bore ask if the liner is seamed or seamless. If it is seamed and the gun is used have it inspected by someone knowledgeable in the construction of cannons before buying. Better yet have it X-rayed for defects.

If you are buying a new cannon insist on a seamless liner. Do not let anyone talk you out of it.


Okay Artilleryman,  I'll let you jump in and explain the problems with pipe casting technique.

Offline Artilleryman

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« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2006, 06:08:33 PM »
Liners that have the barrel cast around them can have several problems.  The liner can be melted part or all the way through making the liner worthless.  The liner can be warped by the heat of casting, and it may float off center making the barrel weak on the side the liner floated to.  A liner that is not centered in the barrel will be difficult to aim accurately.

Personally I would not shoot a cannon with a welded seam liner.  I would have it bored out and lined with a seamless liner with a properly fitted breechplug.  This is assuming that the liner was centered in the barrel.

I know that good barrels are expensive.  I started with 1/4 and 1/2 scale South Bend tubes and worked my way up to full scale.  I have only been able to afford the full scale barrels by having partners.  Good barrels are an investment in life and limb, yours or someone elses.
Norm Gibson, 1st SC Vol., ACWSA

Offline lightning

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pipe coared cannon
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2006, 06:08:49 PM »
Thanks for the info.  I've probably got a few months before I actually get around to being able to shoot it.  If I do not shoot projectiles, do I still need to ream the barrel?  When I initially started looking for a cannon I was just going to build one for ornamental purposes to go in my gunroom.  Thought it would look cool.  Then I found this forum, became a subscriber to The Artilleryman, and started thinking about shooting it.  Got a few friends that are now interested in seeing this thing shot, as well as myself.  I am getting close to finishing the naval carriage.  If I decide to shoot this cannon w/o a projectile, and use a fuse, how far away would be a good safe distance and how long should the fuse be?

Offline GGaskill

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« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2006, 06:18:55 PM »
DOM tubing has a welded seam; seamless is formed by a piercing and rolling process.  See this post on this forum for links to industry explanations of both processes.

What is the bore size?
GG
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Offline Artilleryman

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« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2006, 06:19:13 PM »
If it is a safe barrel ( I have doubts about that from your description.) you can use a short fuse and stand next to it.  If it isn't a safe barrel how close would you stand next to a pipe bomb?
Norm Gibson, 1st SC Vol., ACWSA

Offline lightning

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OK, OK
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2006, 06:37:13 PM »
I'm guessing at least 50 yards then???.  Seriously, I won't shoot this thing without a lot of continued research and input. Thanks.  I respect and appreciate all of the information and will take it all into consideration before, and if, I shoot this thing.  Y'all have given me plenty to think about and consider.  If these type barrels are not as safe as they should be, how does a company as well known and respected as Dixie Gunworks continue to sell these cannons year after year?
I will buy the recommended book(s).  Thanks for welcoming me to the forum.  I will keep checking back regularly.  This is a great site.  Thanks again for sharing your experience and knowledge.

Offline GGaskill

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« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2006, 06:54:05 PM »
The best place to stand is behind and off to the side.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
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Offline Rickk

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« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2006, 12:23:57 AM »
lightning,

I looked at Dixie's web site. They don't list a 1/2 scale, only a 2/3 scale.

If you really have a 2/3 scale, then look here :

http://www.hernironworks.com/cannons.html  

to see if the barrel you have shows up. If it does, they are most likely the actual maker of the barrel (way cheaper direct from them btw). As far as I know, they only use seamless.

You could e-mail them (Joel) and ask him more about the steel liner.

Offline Third_Rail

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« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2006, 03:54:15 AM »
GGaskill, I stand corrected re: DOM.

Offline lightning

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Lined Barrel
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2006, 04:06:13 AM »
I did not buy it from Dixie, although I've been looking at their catalog for years.  I bought this from Gray Star Technology.  I've been reading in the forum where one of the cannon mfg.'s has been extremely slow to reply to inquiries.  Tim at Gray Star stayed in touch with me regularly and answered every email quickly.  A nice and honest guy.

Offline GGaskill

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« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2006, 07:57:23 AM »
One thing to consider is using a dilute solution of anti-freeze to clean the barrel.  Anti-freeze contains corrosion inhibitors which may neutralize the corrosive byproducts of black powder combustion.  This may be best as a final rinse after the soap and hot water cleaning.
GG
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Offline Double D

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Re: Lined Barrel
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2006, 11:35:25 AM »
Quote from: lightning
I did not buy it from Dixie, although I've been looking at their catalog for years.  I bought this from Gray Star Technology.  I've been reading in the forum where one of the cannon mfg.'s has been extremely slow to reply to inquiries.  Tim at Gray Star stayed in touch with me regularly and answered every email quickly.  A nice and honest guy.


What did Greystar tell you about seamless liners?  Did you ask for seamless liner?

Offline Artilleryman

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« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2006, 12:35:29 PM »
The following is their website.  They give the following disclaimer.  

Disclaimer-
We are not responsible for the illegal or misuse of the cannons or any altering done by the customer. It is the customers responsibility to have knowledge of black powder firing and safety. Cannons are sold as ornamental display pieces only.

These barrels do not come with the vent installed.  I would guess then that if you installed a vent then you have "altered" the barrel.

http://greystarcannontech.homestead.com/star.html
Norm Gibson, 1st SC Vol., ACWSA

Offline lightning

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Seamless liner
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2006, 04:04:24 PM »
No, I did not ask for a seamless liner.  My mistake for not researching as well as I should have.  His website says he offers them though.  Like I said, I initially had no intention of shooting it, just displaying it.  This forum, as well as other factors, gave me impetus to shoot the thing.  I am already shopping for my next cannon, with the intention of shooting it.  I am by no means a rich man so I will be limited in my choices.  Because of y'alls input I am much better informed now.  So if I don't shoot this one, my heart is set on shooting one someday.  I live in the big city of Houston, so I first have to find a place to shoot out in the country, or at one of the gun ranges.

It seems that several of the cannon sales sites do not predrill the fuse hole for civil liability reasons.  If Hern Iron Works is the Manufacturer of the Dixie Gunworks cannons, who drills the fuse holes?  Hern sales them w/o vent holes.  Dixie sales them with vent holes.

Thanks again for all the advice.

Offline GGaskill

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« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2006, 07:28:55 PM »
Dixie also charges twice as much (more or less) as Hern.  I guess you are paying a few dollars to have the touch hole drilled and the rest is for liability insurance.
GG
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Offline Rickk

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« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2006, 07:28:06 AM »
plus you are paying for shipping twice... once from IA to TN, and then a second time from TN to TX.

For what it is worth, drilling the hole scared me.... I was very much afraid of breaking a drill bit. I called in a favor and had it EDM'ed. In my barrel, not only did I have to drill a hole, but drill it at a 20 degree angle to get the goes-inta and the goes-outa to be where I wanted them. It came out perfect.

Offline lightning

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Vent Hole Drilling
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2006, 09:07:21 AM »
I plan on drilling the hole with a small drill press, and drilling it so 1/8" fuse will fit.  For you guys who have done this before, or have knowledge of drilling metal, what size should I drill the hole, and is there a certain speed I need to be drilling?  Or extra special bits?

Offline CU_Cannon

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« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2006, 09:56:23 AM »
I generally use a #7 drill.  I have used drills that are just larger than the fuse and found that the fuse doesnÂ’t blow clear.  

A few recommendations on drilling vents;  First center-punch the exact location of the hole and start it with a center drill.  That way you will have the hole started exactly where you want it.  Drill a hole with a 1/8” drill first.  This is a small drill so it is still easy to break but allows you to drill the vent to the actual size much more easily and accurately.   Run the drill as fast as you can.  IÂ’m not sure the exact speed for a 1/8” drill but the faster the better.  Keep even steady pressure when you are drilling.  If you donÂ’t the bottom of the hole will “glaze” over and dull the drill making it even more difficult to drill.  Let up pressure as you are breaking through the other side.  Drills tend to grab as they are breaking though.  This is where most of them break.  Also donÂ’t even think of doing this with a hand held drill.  You will most likely break the drill if you do.  

Most of this is from drilling steel barrels.  I have never drilled a lined barrel so some things may be different.  Others can jump in with any other advice.

I hope this helps.  If you are unsure bring the barrel to a local machine shop.  They shouldnÂ’t charge too much and may even do it for free if you let them fire it.

Offline lightning

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drilling vent hole
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2006, 10:33:23 AM »
Thanks for the info.  Greatly appreciated.

Offline Artilleryman

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« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2006, 01:57:13 PM »
When you have a barrel liner you should have a vent piece to provide a continuous passage with no possible gap between the liner and the casting.  A vent piece is a threaded rod with a primer hole through it that is threaded into the barrel.  

Barrels that are turned out of one piece of steel would not need a vent piece since they would have a continuous passage.
Norm Gibson, 1st SC Vol., ACWSA

Offline Rickk

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« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2006, 02:22:33 PM »
The #7 drill  CU_Cannon recommended (.201) will clear both 1/8 inch fuse, and also .180 paper straws if you want to go the "quill" route.

It also is big enough to accept a .22 brush for cleaning.

Offline Cannonmaker

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« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2006, 02:42:03 PM »
lightning,  with what has been said, what I can say is to use a good USA drill bit, IPOS drill bits have no place in my shop for that type of work.  IPOS by-the-way stands for Imported Piece Of Shi-.

be carefull, pay attention, fill what the drill press is doing and you should know when the bit is entering the bottom of the hole.  I allways let up on pressure at that point.

good luck
Rick Neff
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2006, 03:19:25 PM »
Just in case, let me repeat what has been said multiple times.

Getting close to the end of drilling, reduce the rate of feed.

I've broken bits (as others have) AT THIS POINT, when the bit breaks through.  But feel free to ask how to remove the pieces, we all have had experience.
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline CU_Cannon

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« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2006, 06:35:45 AM »
IÂ’m not too bad on drills but IÂ’m really good at breaking off taps.  I guess your not much of a machinist if you donÂ’t have a pile of ruined parts with broken off taps and drills stuck in them.

Offline guardsgunner

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« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2006, 08:27:33 AM »
CU,
    I think the proper wording for that would be: I guess your not a machinist of any experience if you donÂ’t have a pile of ruined parts with broken off taps and drills stuck in them.

Lighting.
Follow Artillermans advice and put in the threaded vent piece.

Offline lightning

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Drilling vent hole
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2006, 08:43:39 AM »
Once again, thanks for all the great input.  You guys have a wealth of information that will probably save me a  lot of heartache.

Offline Double D

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« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2006, 09:23:07 AM »
I don't know where I saw it, but some where I saw a long time ago the the fuse hole should be 1-1/2 calibers.  That mean  1-1/2 times the  diameter of your fuse.Thats fine for most standard size fuses.

Now to reinforce what Norm said. If you are drilling a fuse hole in a lined tube, you must, that is not should that is must have a vent piece.  Do not fire your cannon not even once without it.

Check out FAQ post at the top of the forum on information on vent pieces.