Author Topic: Breach Loaders (Read 5488 times)

moose53 · « **on:** June 25, 2006, 03:45:10 AM »

Was wondering how much interest there is in shooting breach loaders?The people i shoot with have about a 50-50 split between muzzle loaders and breach loaders (mostly 40mm).Does any one shoot full size breach loaders?

guardsgunner · « **Reply #1 on:** June 25, 2006, 04:40:23 AM »

Hello Moose,
I shoot a full scale civil war breechloader. It is 1.5 and mounted on a prairie carriage.

If you build a breechloader, keep in mind that it cannot have an internaly primed cartridge and must be of pre 1898 design to be within ATF regulations..

Double D · « **Reply #2 on:** June 30, 2006, 07:58:18 AM »

Obviously I did something wrong with the split so I am going to cut an paste the post over and resume this thread

Double D · « **Reply #3 on:** June 30, 2006, 08:00:56 AM »

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guardsgunner

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Some veiws of the breech assy.

Double D · « **Reply #4 on:** June 30, 2006, 08:02:38 AM »

moose53

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Just came on line with My Hosted Pics so here are a few photos of my 40 mm.Its due for paint soon.

Double D · « **Reply #5 on:** June 30, 2006, 08:04:53 AM »

rifleshooter2

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Those were great pics of your 40mm. On the pic of the projectile and load what is the metal part. I'm assuming it's to seal the bore and prevent gasses from leaking but what is it made of?

Andy

P.S. Please post more pics of her

Double D · « **Reply #6 on:** June 30, 2006, 08:22:30 AM »

moose53

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The base plug is rubber with a steel plate vulcanized to it , it is bolted to a copper rim by a stainless steel bolt that is drilled for a shotgun primer. 100% seal works very well.The fit on the plug can be adjusted by the bolt.

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rifleshooter2

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Thanks very ingenious I would have never thought of that.
Andy

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moose53

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Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 1:33 pm Post subject: Breach Loaders
I just learned how to resize photos, so here is one of my 40 mm rifles.

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Double D

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Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 3:46 pm

That is a beautiful gun. Tell us about the construction. Where did you get the barrel? What gun does it replicate. At first I thought it might be a Whitworth but then I'm not sure. I think I have seen that gun design some where before.

You are going to have to give us some details on the breeching system. How does it work?

Who built your bullet mould? Is the projectile zinc? Where are you shooting?

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moose53

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Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:54 pm Post subject: Breach Loaders

My barrels came from the ship scrap yards in Portland Oregon in the mid 70`s.I got the last 3in-50 barrel they had for $50.00. I missed the piles of 40mm barrels stacked up like fire wood,but i did see dumpsters full of 3&4 foot 40mm barrels for .20 cents a pound,bought 3 of them. Spent most of my mony on 3 in barrels. It makes me sick to think that most of the barrels were shipped overseas and melted down.I was going to school at the time and didn`t have alot of money .The 40mm barrels are modeled after the Whintworth Rifle with a few more modern adaptations.I have my own shop so I do all my own work, sure is fun!

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rifleshooter2

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GBO Auctions Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: Breach Loaders

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Quote from: moose53

My barrels came from the ship scrap yards in Portland Oregon in the mid 70`s.I got the last 3in-50 barrel they had for $50.00. I missed the piles of 40mm barrels stacked up like fire wood,but i did see dumpsters full of 3&4 foot 40mm barrels for .20 cents a pound,bought 3 of them.

I was just on Big Sky Surplus looks like th prices went up a bit
40MM BOFORS NAVY L-60 AAÂ— FULL LENGTH BARRELÂ— $2,900 ea.
40MM BOFORS NAVY L-60 AA FULL LENGTH BARREL (with water jacket) Â— $2,995 ea.
40MM BOFORS L-60 BARREL CUT IN Â½ MUZZLE END Â— $995 ea.
40MM BOFORS L-60 BARREL CUT IN Â½ CHAMBER ENDÂ— $995 ea

Andy

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blaster

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GBO Auctions Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: Breach Loaders

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Quote from: rifleshooter2

I was just on Big Sky Surplus looks like th prices went up a bit
40MM BOFORS NAVY L-60 AAÂ— FULL LENGTH BARRELÂ— $2,900 ea.
40MM BOFORS NAVY L-60 AA FULL LENGTH BARREL (with water jacket) Â— $2,995 ea.
40MM BOFORS L-60 BARREL CUT IN Â½ MUZZLE END Â— $995 ea.
40MM BOFORS L-60 BARREL CUT IN Â½ CHAMBER ENDÂ— $995 ea

Andy

Big Sky Surplus is where I got my 20 M/M bbl to make my very simple version of the "Whitworth" but it's nothing compared to the breech loader in the pictures above. Big Sky Surplus does have a LOT of stuff but his communication skills leave a lot to be desired..l.
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I got caught up in this very interesting thread and overlooked another issue.

Quote

Title 27: Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
PART 479Â—MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS
Subpart BÂ—Definitions
Antique firearm. Any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

ATF regs do allow Antique Cannons shooting fixed ammo. The key is for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

We need to be be very carefull in this discussion to be sure the gun and ammo we are talking about meet this criteria.

Now to get on with the discussion...

Heat softens brass, working hardens it. Normal brass cartridges have a work hardened head to give it strength. The case body is slightly less hard to allow spring expansion and yet still have strength enough to hold and seal the pressurized gas from escaping. The neck is soft to allow projectile release.

How do you deal with the annealing effect of soldering brass to copper or vice versa in the head area?

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moose53

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GBO Auctions Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:21 pm Post subject: Breach Loaders

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I did not know the ATF made allowance for any fixed amunition,that is very nice to know.None of the cases I made can hold a shell.Do you know when the Hotchkiss Mountain Rifle was put into service,and would it be considered exempt?

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Powder keg

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GBO Auctions Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 6:30 am Post subject:

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I think if it uses fixed ammo you are going to have problems?

DD my intents are to build cases for my blank firing signal cannons. They are almost imposible to buy.

Later, Wes
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Double D · « **Reply #7 on:** June 30, 2006, 08:40:45 AM »

We already know that the ATF has given the go ahead on the 8 guage signal cannon.

As to the Hotchkiss mountain rifle. Does it use fixed ammo? If it does you need to write a letter to ATF for a determination if they consider it an antique or not. I think the determinating factor is if the ammo is available commercially. I have heard but never seen it written that they consider commercial if it is for sale by a commercial enterprise. But that is for ATF to say not us.

moose53 · « **Reply #8 on:** June 30, 2006, 09:05:49 PM »

Powder Keg ,PM`s and Email are not working. When they are I will send you some information.

moose53 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 01, 2006, 08:37:44 AM »

DD, the forum is not working all the way yet or I would have quoted your question about case head strength.The case is compleatly supported by the breech and is a good fit .It could just as well be a alum foil case.The cross section of my case is also comparativly thick. The only problem I can foresee would be separation when ejected,that is why I have 1/4in lip for silver solder.

Double D · « **Reply #10 on:** July 01, 2006, 10:32:15 AM »

Quote from: moose53

DD, the forum is not working all the way yet or I would have quoted your question about case head strength.The case is compleatly supported by the breech and is a good fit .It could just as well be a alum foil case.The cross section of my case is also comparativly thick. The only problem I can foresee would be separation when ejected,that is why I have 1/4in lip for silver solder.

I'm not sure what you are talking about here. Are you talking about making the 8 guage cases...hey Wes did you check with Cannon mania for cases :lol:... or are you talking about the something to do with this breech loader.

It appears to me that you had a projectile, powder bag and the chamber seal for it and then it all is inclosed under a screwed on breech plug.

moose53 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 01, 2006, 12:01:16 PM »

DD ,when you separated Powder Keg and me, you put the part about the 40mm cases I use for blanks on his 8 guage thread.It is a bit mixed up.

Double D · « **Reply #12 on:** July 01, 2006, 06:05:02 PM »

I already screwed it up bad enough that I ain't gonna try and fix it. like I said in the other post to much free time.

My apologies for screwing up the thread up...just ignore me and I'll keep my fingers off the moderate button!!!

moose53 · « **Reply #13 on:** July 04, 2006, 05:56:55 PM »

How does anyone make their alum foil powder cases?Here are photos of how I make 40mm alum powder cases for my breach loader.

formers for 40mm alum powder cases

roll foil on forming dowel

crimp one end

firmly set crimped end in forming collar

remove forming dowel and fill with powder

lightly tamp with setting dowel

crimp foil over powder

lightly set crimp with large end of setting dowel

open forming collar and remove powder case

moose53 · « **Reply #14 on:** July 09, 2006, 07:48:19 AM »

Here is a old photo of my collection from 1987 ,i only have the longest 40mm left. The largest cannon is the first 3in barrel i made.Now that i have my big lathe i can start on my full size 3in and 75mm barrels lots of fun!

GGaskill · « **Reply #15 on:** July 09, 2006, 01:31:20 PM »

Now that is a sickeningly clean shop if I ever saw one. :-)

moose53 · « **Reply #16 on:** July 09, 2006, 02:20:39 PM »

Today my shop is reduced to little paths around my machinery,it didn`t stay clean for long.

GGaskill · « **Reply #17 on:** July 09, 2006, 03:50:46 PM »

Today my shop is reduced to little paths around my machinery...

Now that sounds like my shop.

Powder keg · « **Reply #18 on:** July 12, 2006, 02:49:44 PM »

Looks like everything is back up and running again, Thanks Matt!!!

Paths??? I can't hardly see the floor now in my shop. Ha Ha Ha!!!

Moose, That sure looks like a slick way to build your powder packet's. I like the sleeve that loosens up. I was doing the same thing without the sleeve. By the time I was done I had to role the packet in my hand, like making a play doo snake, to get it to fit in the barrel.

I also like your mold. Does the boolett engauge the rifling good? Is it hard to start into the barrel?

Later, Wes

Thorn · « **Reply #19 on:** July 13, 2006, 03:34:05 PM »

Im a long time lurker, finally registered and hope to spend a lot of time here.

moose53, great work. Did you find the exact size rubber gas seal (it kind of looks like part of a freeze plug)? If not can i ask how you shaped the rubber ? Every time i try to cut some its far from smooth.

moose53 · « **Reply #20 on:** July 13, 2006, 03:45:35 PM »

The rubber plug is easy to shape if you use a die grinder with a sanding pad on it.It comes out smooth and with what ever taper you want.Spin the rubber plug in a drill or lathe, and shape it with the die grinder.

Thorn · « **Reply #21 on:** July 13, 2006, 04:56:27 PM »

THANK YOU !!!!

Powder keg · « **Reply #22 on:** July 13, 2006, 05:10:14 PM »

Great tip Moose!!! Its great to have people on this board that are willing to share their knoledge of building stuff. I had to sharpen some pointy shafts the other day and a guy at work sugested chucking them in a drill and using a bench grinder. It worked better that I ever would have thought!!! Looiked really profesional. That just goes to show you that there's more than one way to skin a cat.

I plan on getting started again on my muzzleloaders tomarrow. Over the Fourth I was really sick. I had an allergic reaction to some Mosquito bites, And had to go to the Hospital. I wasn't able to go to work for over a week. I'm better now though. I'll start posting stuff tomarrow evening or so.

Later, Wes

Michael Az · « **Reply #23 on:** July 14, 2006, 03:54:58 AM »

Quote from: Powder keg on July 13, 2006, 05:10:14 PM

I had to sharpen some pointy shafts the other day and a guy at work sugested chucking them in a drill and using a bench grinder. It worked better that I ever would have thought!!! Looiked really profesional. That just goes to show you that there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Wes

I do that to sharpen my scribes, you sometimes have to be careful to not get them too sharp! Method also works well when you have to radius the end of a small shaft or dowel pin.
Now, if I just had a drill big enough to hold my mortar barrel I could do the radius on the breach end!
Michael

moose53 · « **Reply #24 on:** July 15, 2006, 02:40:35 PM »

Quote from: Powder keg on July 12, 2006, 02:49:44 PM

I also like your mold. Does the boolett engauge the rifling good? Is it hard to start into the barrel?

Later, Wes

Quote from: moose53 on July 15, 2006, 02:34:46 PM

Here are a few photos of a 40 mm (1.57in) shot shell to show how well the rifling engages.The barrel has a tapered powder chamber 6.75in deep and is free bored for about 2in so shell is easy to load

Powder keg · « **Reply #25 on:** July 15, 2006, 02:40:49 PM »

Silly me

I forgot we were talking about breech loaders. Great pictures. What did you dig them out of?

Wes

moose53 · « **Reply #26 on:** July 15, 2006, 02:46:20 PM »

Shell hit the edge of a hard rock in a clay bank .The rock stayed in one piece!

Double D · « **Reply #27 on:** July 15, 2006, 05:52:19 PM »

How about a picture of you bullet mould, cast round and a powder Can so we gan get some perspective on this?

moose53 · « **Reply #28 on:** July 15, 2006, 06:18:42 PM »

Sorry about that ,forgot about the powder can thing.I will do better.

Double D · « **Reply #29 on:** July 15, 2006, 08:54:30 PM »

Are your projectiles lead or zinc? Look like lead. Have you tried zinc. Makes a world of difference in the larger calibers they say.

Course if you cast zinc in your mould it won't work for lead anymore.