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Offline Dave Allen

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headspace...
« on: August 03, 2006, 03:29:13 PM »
hello, is headspace an issue with handi's...to be honest i am learning about the subject...i had a head seperation issue recently wth my 25/06 the brass had been full length resized 5-6 times...i thought that would be about the max...so maybe i was pushing a bit?? is this an issue for handi owners that reload?? i have this my 1st handi shooting respectable & am considering another...just wondering what others thoughts are ??

Offline DWTim

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Re: headspace...
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2006, 05:38:42 PM »
Sorry to hear that. Hope you got the rest of the case out okay. If your gun has a loose chamber, full-length resizing is shortening the life of your brass. Most folks I know say just resize the neck, unless it has to cycle in an auto or a pump gun. You could pick up a relatively cheap no-go gauge for the 25-06 from Forster, and make sure it is within SAAMI guidelines.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: headspace...
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2006, 05:46:20 PM »
Dave, I'm a new reloader myself, but I've had a great mentor helping me, right Mac!! ;D Since I'm shooting ammo in the same rifle each time, I full length size new brass, then either neck size or partially full length size subsequent loads, that way each piece of brass is fire formed to my chamber and until the case needs the shoulder set back a little, there are virtually no headspace issues, I just check my brass before I reload it to see if it fits or doesn't. I had some brass that was resized before I got it and it was too short, so I had to seat bullets to the lands and use start loads to fireform them back to fit my chamber, but it works. I haven't got to the point of 6 reloadings yet, and I probably never will with most of mine with the exception of the Hornet, but I use a collet die set on it which works great!!

Hope this helps a bit.

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Dillohide

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Re: headspace...
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2006, 08:09:45 PM »
From a safety stand point reloading the same brass 3 to 4 times should be about max, most books will tell you 3 times is max. 5 or 6 times is pushing it even if you only neck size so I don't think headspace was your problem. The brass just gave out. Rimed brass like the 30-30 should never be more than 3 times ... they seperate from the bottom. I use the Lee Loader Tool and a malet when I want to neck size. No lubricant and don't have to mess with my dies. The problem is I like a couple of calibers (30-30 & 3006) in several different guns so neck sizing those is not usually an option for me.

Offline Dave Allen

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Re: headspace...
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2006, 04:35:38 AM »
hello, thanks guys-i think i will just f.l. resize for now & pitch the brass after three resizes...

Offline Ditchdigger

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Re: headspace...
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2006, 03:48:23 PM »
My 22 250 will do the same thing with just 3 loadiing's with the nickel plated brass. The regular brass works fine.  Digger
Rest in Peace Old Friend July 2017

Offline Mac11700

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Re: headspace...
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2006, 08:26:46 AM »
I don't full lenght resize..unless I'm forming cases..like making 338-06 cases from 30-06 or 35 Whelens anymore..I usually start off with either new factory brass or 1x fired from factory loaded ammo...I weigh all my cases and sort them into like weights..I chamfer the case mouth slightly before priming...I do it this way for a couple reasons...(1)..I know for sure it is a new case..and (2)... it will be  fireformed for only my Handi's chamber.I don't use it in any other rifle...My rifles headspace at .0015" and .001" ...and I don't want to change this on the brass by full lenght resizing the cases bafter they have been fireformed and fit the chamber perfectly...because my accuracy will dimish greatly if I do...There is absolutly no reason for me to since I don't use it in any other rifles...If you do..then I would get some brass specifically for your Handi..


I partially neck size my cases...usually to the lenght of the diameter of the bullet...or I size down to just in front of the neck shoulder junction with neck sizing dies...I only touch the shoulder a tiny fraction when needing to push the shoulder back..and the truth is I usally don't bother and start with a new case...I have done it this way with the hottest loads in my Handi..and have gotten good results...with minimal case stretch...even in the 243 which is known for case stretching...and 99% of all my reloading is done with either Remington nickle cases or Winchesters...I have no problem with any split necks..or the nickle peeling off of them...I usually get 5 reloads before tossing the brass...some cartridges more..

A neck sizing die isn't very expensive and works great..it doesn't touch the body at all..and I feel everyone should actually try them once..

Mac

You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: headspace...
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2006, 11:38:56 AM »
FWIW, I just started reloading for my .280 since I haven't shot it yet. I had to full length resize and set the shoulder back about .010" on  the new win nickel brass to get it to fully chamber, I just kept adjusting the die down until the case was flush with the chamber. I'm real glad I checked it, cuz I wouldn't have been able to fire any of em without a pop open, there was quite a gap at the breech, even slamming it shut hard, the case was still keeping it from closing completely. That would have been a wasted range trip. :-[

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Mac11700

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Re: headspace...
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2006, 07:35:07 PM »


Quote
I had to full length resize and set the shoulder back about .010" on  the new win nickel brass to get it to fully chamber,

Yeeeeeeks :o That is some messed up brass Tim..........

Was/is all of that paticular lot like that??????.....If it is...a call to Winchester is in order...you might get a free bag from them..

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: headspace...
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2006, 07:46:22 PM »
It's all fixed now, fits perfect! I would be real unhappy if it was the other way round, not much I could do about that cept load into the lands and fireform with start loads. I may have a tight chamber, dunno. Doesn't matter now. ;)

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Dave Allen

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Re: headspace...
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2006, 05:10:30 AM »
 hello, i didn't think handi's liked neck sized brass ?? i know on my 1st reloads i read the instructions wrong on my redding dies & did not accomplish a complete full length resize..i had two pop opens out of ten rounds..anyway i went back to the drawing board found my error & resized and probably seventy rounds or so later...i have not had a pop open...mainly i'm courious..it's shooting pretty well so i'm not to stressed either way...hopefully later today i will get my last range testing done...i'm ready to start hunting again...

Offline Dave Allen

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Re: headspace...
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2006, 05:27:57 AM »
hey tim,i forgot to mention please keep us posted on that 280 rem. by what you were saying i assume it's a handi...that caliber has been floating around my head lately...thanks !!!

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: headspace...
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2006, 05:32:02 AM »
Why of course it's a Handi!!! Will do, range trip next wednesday. ;)

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline NFG

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Re: headspace...
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2006, 08:12:31 AM »
I will preface this tome by saying, "Learn everything you can, BUT...nothing is cast in stone and each rifle is an island unto itself.  What works for one may not work for another".  You have to load each rifle as if it didn't like you and Murpy was waiting for the chance to stick you.

I have a 338-06, made over 30 years ago, that ate brass for breakfast, lunch and dinner.  I set up the dies according to RCBS's recommendations and I would get 2 or 3 loadings before the head came off.  Incipient head separation it was called. ( Remington actions are amazing)  Over time and with the help of many in the benchrest crowd I learned the chamber was 0.020" too long.  This was way before the internet and information was difficult to come by.  Anyone who loads the NEF Handi's should have a set of Stoney gauges and Redding Competition shell holders to adjust his dies and loads.  Everytime I resized I was pushing the shoulder back that much.

Now, I set my 338-06 sizer to just set the shoulder back by a thou or two, so no problem of chambering happened, argumentitively you can just set the dies to leave the shoulder alone or just touch, but the cases will continue to lengthen and pretty soon you won't be able to chamber at all.  Lee "pound'em" dies are good for this.

I did some testing on case run out, again way back, and found that turning the dies out would increase the runout and the only way to stop this was to have the sizer contact the ram end firmly.  For the most part all my sizing dies are set to first contact the shell holder at the maximum stroke then the die is turned down at least 2 full turns so the handle DOESN'T snap over at top of the stroke.

Now, I use Redding Comp shell holders to adjust the shoulder point, turn the case necks just enough to clean up...not to fit an already oversized factory chamber, but so there is an even bullet release, polish the sizing button, don't use a button, or use Redding bushing style full length sizing dies, polish the base of the sizer so the case doesn't get squeezed too much or have a custom sizer made, and a hundred other things I can't begin to remember but do as a matter of course, from years of doing the same thing hundreds of thousands of times, over and over.

I will say now that everytime I mention these bits of wisdom, no matter if it is on a forum or anywhere else, I get a big argument.  This information is gleaned over 50 years of doing this stuff.  Some peole can learn, some can't.  You do what you want, the information is free and will help you take care of most of the problems associated with the Handi and any other single action type of weapon, which are prone to exacerbating all the problems.

When the shell holder contacts the die bottom it squares the case up and takes out MOST of the runout.  Using factory cut dies and chambers getting all the runout eliminated just doesn't compute.

Still talking about the 338-06, when the Redding Competition shell holders came out I stopped using the 0.015" shim I made and ordered a 0.020" oversize shell holder which makes the whole reloading process much simpler and quicker.

As to how many times to reload a case...again...it depends on the caliber.  .223's can be reloaded 25 times or more as long as the sizing die and chamber fit each other and you don't work the brass too much.  I posted this somewhere else on this site...I think...of some tests I made with this case.  I usually stop at 5 for larger calibers...BUT...you have to let all the components tell you when.  I made up 25, 338-06 cases way back when, have all the components...i.e., rifle, dies, load, seating...everything concerned with loading a round, adjusted for minimal case brass movement.  I took 5 cases and reloaded them 10 times apiece and they are still going strong without any sign of the heads coming off.  They get trimmed about 0.002" each firing, sometimes none at all, but I run them through a Wilson trimmer each time anyway, and clean the primer pockets with a carbide cutter.  The flash hole is reamed at the first reload also, to take out the burr on the inside of the case.  The load is 57 gr of IMR 4320, Hornady 225 SP seated 3.45", Fed GM match primer, at 2700 f/s.  The rifle is throated long so it has a jump of about 0.400" which is why my load is about 4 gr over what most manuals list as max.

I just finished reloading a 45-70 case 10 times with a stiff load and 350 gr Hornady RN.  It was within a couple more firings of loosing it's head and had lengthened over 0.050" total.  I will stop at 5 loads for cases loaded like that, but these are cases loaded for hunting and are marked as such.  I will do another test as soon as I get the new weighter forend finished, with a lead bullet load at normal 28,000 psi to see how far a case will go.  You have to test to learn the parameters...AND those parameter are for than specific rifle only..

These little things are why making flat statements...5 loads is max...I appologize for that one...neck size only, that caliber sucks...is totally fly dude.  There are just too many variables that should be considered and that usually aren't, through not knowing the full extent...you know..."He's not fully aware of all he doesn't know......

Knowledge is aquired slowly, you can't count on everything you read on forums but all the,"used to be", "Secret knowledge" is no longer secret and freely available...somewhere.

If you just want to shoot a few rounds a year don't waste your money onloading equipment.  Go buy some premium ammo and enjoy.  If you get hook...this thing is worse than drugs...heaven help you.  I spend most waking moments thinking, working, shooting, loading, testing, fiddling, SALIVATING and DROOLING all over everything having to do with this sport.  It's not a pretty sight.  Good thing my ex run me off so I have more money to spent on toys. :P :'( ;D

For those who want to really get into the meat of the plan goto

http://www.6mmbr.com/index.html, it is one of the most enlightened, knowledgeable sites I have come across since the 'net opened and is filled with all the secrets one would want to aquire.

Enjoy  NEF



Offline Dave Allen

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Re: headspace...
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2006, 11:52:00 AM »
 WOW !! nfg...thank you for taking the time to make that post...to be honest i will print that one off & read a few more time's...i get the gist...of what you are saying "but" of course do not fully understand...nor will i today or anytime real soon...i will refer back to your suggestions as time goes on...thanks again...

Offline Mac11700

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Re: headspace...
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2006, 07:14:39 PM »
NFG:

I too load for the 338-06...and use Reddings 3 die set and shell holders...This is in a Handi...and 1 thing that is cut in stone about these rifles is that all of them are dimensionally different...even when they have custom cut chambers and rifling...case in point is Quickdtoo's 338-06 and mine...His is throated longer...mine isn't...his I belive has 1in10 rifling...mine has 1 in 9-1/2...Here's a pic of mine...



And here's how it shoots the Accubonds..



If you want to ...call Bob Merkur at Redding..he can tell you exactly how to load for these rifles...I did...and spent the better part of a day on the phone with him...He was the one who opened my eyes to setting the cartridge up for the proper amount of headspace..and what I posted earlier is how he recommended doing it...It has increased my accuracy substaintially and made shooting these rifles a pleasure...I

I don't have any pop opens...and what Quick has posted in the FAQ's have eliminated this entirely for many posters here..

Like I said...no-longer full lenght resize my brass for shooting them in my Handi's...I don't have any that have oversized out of round chambers..Nor do I have abnormally long or even long throats..I am blessed with having minimum spec'd chambers..and that is a big plus when it comes to the way I reload...I have 20 Weatherby headstamped 338-06 cases that have gone for 5 reloads...these are at 3 grains below max with the 180 grain BT's and Accubonds @3050fps 15' from the muzzle...I haven't had to trim any of them yet...Others may or maynot have to depending on how the gun was chamberd...Wayne did an exceptional job on mine...which is why I recommend his services to anyone wanting this type work done...on Handi's or anyother type rifle...He is a full line smith and has produced excellent bolt guns as well as other single shots too...So if you want to correct that ole Remington's out of spec'd chamber...give him a call...

I too know Mr.Murphy well...we are are first name basis...His first name is Dick by the way...and he comes around way too often...You offer some good suggestion bye the way..but I still reccomend folks to give Bob at Redding a call...he is a wealth of imformation too with all of his years in the buisness...

Have a Great 1

Mac

You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline NFG

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Re: headspace...
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2006, 08:09:24 AM »
Very nice group.  You should be very happy with those results. 

There is a world of difference between factory and custom minimum spec chambers.  Most people never have the chance to see how much difference.  I've tried almost all the 338 cal bullets in my 338-06, including all the Nosler brand weights from 180 to 250 gr and the Hornady 225 SP is the only one that will put 5 into less than a quarter at 100 m.  I wish it would do better than a pattern with the 180's.

I really wish the Nosler 210 Part would shoot well.  I've shot up 3 boxes of that bullet, at least, trying everything I know and everything I could pick out of several other brains, all the powders in that burning range and all the different brand primers and seating ranges without getting anything below a 2" group, including sticking the bolt a couple of times as I was increasing the powder charge. 

Oh...I have to update the load info...I'm now using 59 gr Varget at 2735 f/s at 3.55" OAL with the same components I mentioned before.  Thats about 52,000 psi according to my Load Disk.  Still getting 5 in a quarter with the 225 Hornady.  I could go up a couple more grains but all it would do is increase the pressure without substantially increasing the velocity.  Remember the 10/5 rule.

I've talked to someone at Redding, could be Bob, that was very knowledgeable, about their Competition shell holders and I aquired 3 from 0.015" to 0.0.25" oversized that I use for various calibers.  Having the correct length sized case goes a long way toward increasing case life.  You only need 0.002" sqeeze on the base and 0.003" squeeze on the neck to get the ammo to fit the chamber and have a good hold on the bullet.  Neck sizing has it's avantages and it's problems, I've used both depending on that the rifle happens to like.

Neck turning for a factory chamber and for a custom chamber are horses of a different breed.  For the factory chamber it is just to get an even release on the bullet, for a custom minspec chamber it is to obtain the desired release gap so the pressures stay within reason and the accuracy is at maxinum potential.  Although I have pushed those limits severely at times in the past, I don't recommend beginners even look at that door.

For those novices I will list what I think are a few "minimum" tools to obtain and a few thoughts:

Reducing the pressure 10% will only reduce the velocity 5%.  That means dropping from 55,000 psi to 50,000 psi will drop 3000 f/s velocity only 150 f/s, from 3000 f/s to 2850 f/s.  Run those figures through an exterior data program and you will see just how little difference it makes at 300 yards.  BUT...the numbers are a powerful whiskey talk factor.

65,000 to 70,000 psi is where brass dies.., but you can run brass at 55,000 all day for the most part, without causing too much pain.  Stick with SAMMI specs until you know something.

You can have accuracy or very high velocity but neither at the same time with few exceptions and the best accuracy usually comes pretty close to the SAMMI max point with factory chambers.  Minspec chambers are another story.  And there are always exceptions.  I'm not talking exceptions, I'm talking average everyday what you can expect.  Exceptions can get you in very deep ratschat.

Measure the point where exery bullet ogive touches the lands and record it.  The points are all different within and between brands.

Ball mic, 1" mic, or combination tool.  I have at least a dozen cheapo 1" mic's scattered around my digs, most I paid no more than 10 bucks.  I also have two of the high priced spread that measure 0.0001".

4" and 6" dial and digital calipers.  Again, I have 3 of the small and two of the longer.  You only need one really.

Stoney gauges.  Buy two sets each, their cheap.  It is much easier to get the shoulder length and OAL set up with these gauges.  Also get a Stoney or Sinclair bullet seating depth gauge so you can have a start point without guessing.

Chronograph.  I have two, a Beta Chrony and a Oehler 33.  They will open your eyes to the real facts.

Case and neck trimmers.  I have so many of those things I get lost, but I have a Wilson set up on a block of hardwood with a bolt through the block so I can mount it to my bench quickly.  I also have lots of Lee trimmers, Lyman, Redding and others.  They all get used at one time or another.  I use a Sinclair neck turner most of the time and have a Hornady Hot shot also plus Forester and Wilson setups.  They all work great

Primer pocket uniformers.  Get carbide for use in a drill and all sizes for pistol and rifle.

Flash hole deburring tool.  You only have to debur once and it is well worth it.  You'd be surprised how much more uniform the chrono numbers will be.

A couple of deburring tools.  I have several and use the Wilson and RCBS the most seems like.  Lee has good cheap ones but they wear out over time.

One of the bullet runout measuring devices.  Sinclair has several as do all the other "supply houses" and get a couple extra 1" stroke dial indicator while you're at it.  10 bucks at any of the cheapo places.  They get dropped or stomped on once in a while.

Some kind of reloading software.  I have several internal load programs including a couple old Powley DOS programs,  Load with a Disk, and bunch of external programs that calculate drop, energy etc., at various ranges.  These programs are a must if you are to go very far down this road.

I am fortunate in having a lathe and mill, so I can do many things not available to the average gunner, and a 100 M range right outside my loading room.  50 years of doing this thing doesn't make me any kind of expert, but it does give me a very deep range of experience's to stand upon.

I've been a 'Catt'r all my life, wildcatter that is, and while I have several 'cats now I don't recommend going that way for a newbee.  Too many excellent standard calibers to mess with the expense of a wildcat and there are too many excellent 'smiths that will cut you a minspec chamber to fit your loading tools or cut you a minspec sizer along with the chamber to deal with something other than the BS factor.  When I wear out a 'cat barrel now, the receiver just goes in the drawer with the other used receivers and I buy another Savage barrel or NEF rifle.  If you can't get it done with a single shot you need to re-evaluate your whole proceedure with an eye toward placing the bullet right the first time and forget about spray'n'and pray'n'.  ;D

Some of the places I frequent for supplies:  Everytime something new comes out I can't help but buy it.  That is why I have so much "extra stuff", mostly getting in the way, but it is all usefull at sometime or another.

Sinclair Int. and Brownells for accuracy products.  There are more places online, but I started ordering from them way back in the day and they keep coming up with new and better, high quality products at a very good prices so I will stick with them.

Natchez, Midway, Lock, stock and Barrel, Midsouth all have everything you need.  I just shop for the best price at the time I want something.  I buy bullets, powder and primers at the local BiMart at the same price as online including shipping.

KBC tools, CDCO, Grizzly Industrial, Victor, J&L industrial and a few others for metal working tools.  Grizzly has some ten dollar 1" x 0.0001 mics that I just keep buying.  They are just as adequate as my Mitutoyo and Starretts.  I like KBC tools the best for selection and price for the more expensive tools.

Again, everything I've said can be argued.  I've tested all of it and the most I can say is it's repeatable, but you might get other results also.  Run some tests yourself, on your rifle, changing only one parameter at a time.  You will be suprised at the outcome.  It takes quite a bit of learning to get to a place where it all falls into place.  You have to rely on professional information in the manuals until you understand what the rest of the story is.  When you get to the "I wonder..." stage you have arrived at the beginning of that very long and winding road.

Enjoy  NFG

Offline Mac11700

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Re: headspace...
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2006, 08:29:28 AM »
Quote
When you get to the "I wonder..." stage you have arrived at the beginning of that very long and winding road.

Yup...been on that winding road for 35 years ;)

One thing though...we are talking about NEF's here...and getting it customized is just as easy for a newbe...as it is for us old farts...There is plenty of sources for good reloading information..you've mentioned a couple...and I will say this site is most helpfull for those just beginning down that long winding path...As always it is froth with danger..but..with perserverance..and helpfull insights..and good common sense will keep them out of making major blunders..and will reward any individual many years of enjoyment.

I also say for the Handi-holics to make a chamber cast.of their barrels...this will let one know right away if it is closer to minimum specs...or as far out as your Remington...This will go along way in helping the average reloader understand his rifle better..and make it tremendously easier to reload for...

I have been shooting Handi's for a very long time..and I have had some very super accurate rifles as those here can attest to...Reloading for them isn't very hard...you just have to know what to look for...However you can make it harder than it needs to be...as with anything...

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline NFG

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Re: headspace...
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2006, 04:18:53 PM »
You're absolutely correct on all points, Mac.  This is one of the very best sites for excellent information.  Not too much wind...except when I get started.

I opened up the notebook on my 338-06 and it was throated for the 275 Speer seated out to 3.60" OAL plus the 'smith liked a little freebore.  I think he might have used his own headspace gauge also, or got his numbers mixed up.  Basically, all I have to do to clean up the long chamber is to pull the barrel, chuck it up and turn off the extra 0.020".  I didn't have the tools to do that when I went the cheaper route of the thicker shell holder and I didn't fully understand what was required at that time.  It has so many rounds down the tube and it shoots so well I don't want to mess with it now.  If I were to rebarrel it right now, I would go to the 338 WinMag or 338 RUM anyway.

Adjustable headspace is one of the reasons that Savage rifles are so accurate and along with the bolt system.  It's so easy to adjust the headspace to the dies.

I also married a couple of extra Savage barrels I had, to two Ruger tang actions and made nuts for both.  Now I have two SavRugs or RugSavs, what ever????,  one in 7mm-08 and the other in 223.  All I had to do was cut the threads, make the nuts, screw on the barrel and set the headspace.  Simple as cake.  Really messes with a few minds and drops the jaws. 8) :o

I'm just about to get the forend finished.  Gobbed on the Tru-Oil today.  Total weight so far is 10.25 pounds loaded with a 400 grainer.  I will get the mercury recoil suppressor sometime this month and get it installed.  I really like the way it hangs right now so I may not install the mercury.

A chamber cast is a very good idea.  I do one when things don't act right.  So far the 45-70 is right on.  The 223 was way off and I should send it back for another barrel, and the 17HRM is perfect.
I just received the cerrosafe I ordered so when I start taking the 45-70 out I will be doing a few casts.

Enjoy  NFG

Offline nomosendero

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Re: headspace...
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2006, 05:11:16 PM »
Dave Allen, do you load the Handi along with bolt guns or just the Handi? How you load is
different for the Handi than the bolt gun. The bolt gun holds the case in a different way &
2 opposing or more locking lugs in the bolt gun is a different animal. In a break open action,
you have one big lug in the bottom, so you have some "spring" instead of the reaction of
a case being fired in a 2-lug bolt that rotates & locks up into the receiver.
I have been reloading for bolt guns since the 70's but the Handi is fairly new to me as far as
reloading is concerned. For the most part I have had very good success in the way of accuracy
with my bolt gun loads, I am not a Bench Rest Competitor, but I have some fine shooting bolt guns.

But I will tell you that I am very busy & I just don't have time to re-invent the wheel, I learned a long
time ago that if I get into something a little different I will seek the advise of those who know the
ins & outs of that product. And for that reason, I have obtained alot of good info from Mac as this area
is his baby. As NFG has mentioned, there is alot of great general reloading info & bolt gun/ benchrest
info on www.6mmbr.com

But when it comes to the NEF specific reloading info, you have come to the right place. BTW, when
we think of the NEF break open design, what do you suppose happens if you drop a round in the
chamber & the shoulder has been pushed back & the rounds drops below flush with the end of the
chamber? Can you imagine the juking & jiving going on when you touch off that round. I would take
a look at what Mac says about this & employ the K.I.S.S. principle as well!
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Offline trotterlg

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Re: headspace...
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2006, 06:27:36 PM »
Problem I see with the handi is that the extractor or ejector holds the round out against the standing breach no matter what the chamber sholder is cut to, so you cannot tell whether or not the chamber is too deep if you don't take the ejector out.  The rossi single shots have the same problem and lots of them also have long chambers. These things are setup to be a cheap, almost single use rifle, factory ammo will chamber and shoot in them once every time.   The people on this board are in the minority of the buyers of these rifles, most are bought by someone that just needs a cheap rifle or shotgun and if it goes bang they are very happy.  I would bet you could chamber and fire a .243 in a -06 or 270 handi easily.  Larry
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Offline NFG

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Re: headspace...
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2006, 07:38:49 PM »
Larry...the object is NOT to do what you suggest.  It is possible to do that same thing in a bolt gun also.  I know of a few instances of 308's being fired in a 30-06 MI Garand by unknowing persons.  They didn't know it was happening until someone looked at an empty case and wondered where the shoulder went.  That pays homage to the strength of a Garand action.  This is also the reason why you can chamber a 270 in a 280 Rem but not vice versa unless you get real stupid and hammer the bolt closed.  Even at that a Remington 700 or Win 70 action will handle the stress, usuall doing nothing more than sizing the bullet down from .284 to .277 and not having very good accuracy.  Believe me when I say many tests have been performed by Remington, Winchester and others before they started producing the ammo.

The best way to headspace is on the shoulder of the case, and it doesn't matter if it is belted, rimmed or rimless.  And the best way to establish that is to either fire a factory round in the chamber and measure the shoulder with some kind of gauge, or make a dummy case.  You want to know the difference between the unfired and the fired case so measure it before and after firing.  Then set your sizing die to stop before the shoulder is touched.  The case will stretch again at the second firing, so measure it again.  Do this until the action has trouble closing,usually by the 4th firing for a break action, then set the sizer down just a bit until the action closes nicely.  Measure again and that is the point you want to reproduce each time you resize.  This works on bolt guns, break open, falling block or what have you.  That is one way, of several, that I set up my sizers.  Been doing it since the benchrest boys clued me in way back when I was worth something and did a little benchresting.

Another way is to use a larger caliber case.  Size it down until the action closes firmly then measure it and set your sizer to size down another 0.002".  This will take care of the brass spring back.  I've used 270, 280 Rem and 30-06 cases to setup 6mm-06 and 25-06 sizers.  35 Whelen will work for 338-06.  270 and 280 have longer shoulders than the smaller calibers so they are excellent prospects.  You can do the same with the 308 size calibers.  Basically you are establishing a shoulder to impede the case from going to far into the chamber.

If you understand what I've been saying you will understand you can use other cases for the same purposes.  You are using the case as a gauge itself and not looking for an absolute measurement, just a reference measurement.  I guarantee you can get pretty cagey when you do a few wildcats, developing ways and methods to achieve an end.

These are some of the reasons I keep pounding on getting at least one set of Stoney gauges, or make your own if you have a drill motor, drill press, and a few drills.  The tools don't have to be fancy, they just have to have a hole smaller than the bullet.  I made a couple out of 1" dia CRS cut to 1" lengths at a machine shop and drilled with a 1/8" drill.  I drilled them out with a 3/16 drill, 0.1875" for 22 cal thru 6.5 and a 1/4" drill, 0.250" for everything else and they sufficed for a very long time.  When I found the Stoney tools the old rusty nasties went into the junk box and the new shiny aluminiums took their place of honor in the storage bin.

As Mac said, reloading doesn't have to be difficult, but you need good tools to make good ammo.  Two hours of case prep can and will reduce most groups by half and keep the groups small.  Lee poundum dies will produce shootable with 2" hunting accuracy, but for a few dollars more you can keep the groups down to 1" MOA without much fuss.  Nothing finer than knowing you can put that bullet in an Elks eye at 300 yards or do a Texas heart shot to boot.

Weighing the cases eliminates over and under weight cases that will toss a bullet out of the group.  You can do this while watching your favorite TV show.  You don't have to get anal about it, most Rem and Win cases are very uniform weight wise.  Mayby 5 out of 100 will be way out and they can be used for other purposes like dummy rounds, using for establishing headspace and setting you sizer, making pretty Christmast ornaments and presents, etc.  ;D

Enjoy  NFG

Offline nomosendero

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Re: headspace...
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2006, 08:40:10 PM »
Trotterlg, with my 450, the extractor is totally out of the way when you open the action. With a
30-06 case head round(a bunch of them) I hold it down with my thumbnail & check with the other hand, I don't have to take it out.
Actually, they are low priced, but the barrel quality is such that I would not call them cheap. For those that want to learn, they can be made to shoot, for the casual shooter it doesn't matter much with any rifle.
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Offline Mac11700

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Re: headspace...
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2006, 09:10:51 PM »
Quote
Problem I see with the handi is that the extractor or ejector holds the round out against the standing breach no matter what the chamber sholder is cut to,

Only on rifles that have a inordinant amount of frame barral gap...which is and always will be the bane of this type action. Shimming helps as you know...but to truely have a sub 1/4" shooter it has to be .0015" or less to begin with...My 25-06 & 280 are .001" or less..

Measuring this gap...then setting your dies to accordingly it is the only way to get repeatable sub moa groups from the rifle...at least for me it is...and a few others that now own a few of my earlier barrels and rifles...The Handi's actions flex..sometimes they flex a-lot...especially if starting off with a visable gap between the frame and barrel..Decrease the flex..will make it more accurate with the ideal load..Each barrel will shoot differently as you are well aware of...A number of things I do...reduces the amount of variables always present...Bench technique,barrel/action prep( bore & chamber polishing),..my cleaning regime (before&after)..case prep..loading technique,and how I set my dies up all are part of many years of trial and error with the Handi's...and some fine free information given to me by Redding...all help to make shooting sub & moa groups with the Handi... as easy as any other type action...This my draw these rifles...not their price..but..the accuracy that is easily attainable......This makes them more of a value to me,than just cost alone...That and the look on some of our bolt gun brothers faces at the range who have just spent a few months saleries on their new toys when we walk down range and compare groups...Funny...they always get around to asking..."How much did that cost? :P

NFG...Good reloading tools are a boon...but...are not always a needed to shoot good groups...While I do love my Redding & Forster & Wilson equipment...my Hornady,RCBS,Lyman,& Lee equipment works great too...and yes...I do know of and owm quit a-bit of the specialty equipment that makes reloading more pleasurable time efficiant...but...I could and have shot repeatable moa groups on my old 30-30 pound dies with my first 30-30 Handi...I used them for a couple seasons...and did exceptionally well with them...As the saying goes...it's not always the car...but the driver that wins a race...I too have to ask...is your 338-06 the wildcat version...or is it the A-Square...mine and Quickdtoo's are the A-Square version...I will be honest with you...I would just rebarrel it and have it cut & throated properly with a good #3 contoure Shilen fluted stainless barrel...then you could see just why I love shooting the lighter weight bullets as I do...About the largest bullet I'll ever need to shoot will be the Nosler 210 Partiton...if I can't kill whatever I hunt with that...it time to call it quits...

Rod...Looking forward to hunting and chewing the fat over a good camp fire this fall...and I'm sure we'll get in a little target practice ;)

Dave Allen...I hope we haven't strayed too far off you given posting here...I'm sorry if we have...

Mac
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Offline Dave Allen

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Re: headspace...
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2006, 04:08:16 AM »
Mac, i appreciate the comments...i'm fine...i need to mull all of this over...hopefully tonight i can do so..unfortunately i'm at work now...i think it's turned out to be a great thread !!

Offline NFG

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Re: headspace...
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2006, 06:52:46 AM »
Mac;  My 338-06 is a wildcat version, the A-square didn't come out until some 25 years later.  It is the standard 30-06 case necked up to 338, no other changes.  There were/are several other iterations on the theme using a 270 or 280 case, blown out and the blown forward, etc.  I'm glad I chose the "standard" version, although the Ackley improved version was a good one also.  All the virtues of minimum taper and sharper shoulder

All this talk had me wondering so I checked my notes a little closer, plus the box of loaded ammo, to see what was what.  I found 10 rounds with the 225 Hornady load and 10 rounds with 200 gr Nosler CT silvertips.  The 200 gr load was 61.5 gr Varget at 3.55" OAL, 7/8" group, so my memory keeps playing tricks and I just keep lying like a dog.  My Load Disk shows that loading to be way too high on the pressure at around 62,000 and 3050 or so on the velocity, but I'm sure I wasn't getting any pressure signs or the load wouldn't be on the shelf waiting for a chance.  I will break out the Chrony today and check out the parameters.  Having a 0.300' to 0.400" freebore reduces the peak pressure and allows higher velocities but too much pressure is too much pressure.  One of these days I will pop for the newest Oehler with the pressure testing system so I won't be guessing.

My rifle has a chrome moly 26" Douglas air gauged #4 (I think) because I wanted a little more weight plus more meat at the end of the barrel.


Tell me how you go about shimming the Handi, Mac.  My 45-70 doesn't like to  close on a 0.002" feeler gauge laid across the barrel.  Fitting a shim in the barrel block where the round frame pin fits and epoxying it in is the only place I can think about??  That would move the barrel closer to the frame and close up that gap.

Thanks  NFG

Offline NFG

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Re: headspace...
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2006, 07:49:16 AM »
Quick update/deliar/I knowyou'rebreathlesswaiting  ;D


One nice thing about having a range in your back yard, it doesn't take long to check things out.

I ran the Nosler 200 CT across the Chrony and it came up 2920 f/s ave for 5 rounds.  The bullet touches the lands at 3.89" and is seated 3.55" OAL, so there is a 0.340" jump which basically lowers the peak pressure.  The Rem 9 1/2M primer is flattened but still has a rounded edge and there is no bolt lift stiffness or case head markings, so the load is OK for this rifle.  Not much recoil compared to the 45-70 400 gr or 416 Tayor 35 gr loads.  ::)

Maybe a little high on pressure according to Load Disk.  Under these circumstance I would usually take one case and keep reloading it until it was near used up to see just how many reloads it would take.  Anything over 5 and I would consider the load to be within the rifles safe capabilities.  These cases look like they will go well over 5 but I am out of the 200 gr CT's.  I loaded the last 21 and I'm down to 16 now.  I will pick up a bag next time I'm through Bend Or, because these 16 will end up wasting a few squirrels while I sort out the real drop figures.

I might just keep this one and forget the 225 Hornady load.  A difference of 200 f/s makes for a longer point blank range, slightly less drop and quite a bit more energy out to 300 yds.  And the groups are almost as good as the Hornady bullet.  ::) 8)

Offline Mac11700

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Re: headspace...
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2006, 08:14:50 AM »

NFG:

Quickdtoo & another notable poster here Fred M have just about everything you need to know about barrel fitting...it's in the FAQ's..but..you can click here..

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,82412.0.html

http://www.angelfire.com/ma/ZERMEL/gapfp.html

Myself..I prefere not altering the hinge or pivot pin..so a simple shim from feeler gauges works fine...if unavailble..some standard brass shim stock of appropriate thickness or a soda can will suffice for expermentation...

3050 fps for the 200 grain CT bullet is what I am striving for...and 3000 fps for the 200 grain Northfork...This will make a truely awsome loadings for deer and elk...and just about anything else in between...It will also take some long range shooting to see the actual differences between the 180 grain Accubond and the 200 grain CT bullets...but I suspect there won't be too much difference...

Take Care

Mac

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Offline Dave Allen

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Re: headspace...
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2006, 03:31:31 PM »
 hello gent's...i will admit to some degree or another i am in over my head...i have plenty of learning to get in your guys shadow..."however" all things considered do you think i should get a neck sizing die & see what happens in regard to accuracy ?? i will have to learn how to bump a shoulder back...& i'm sure i will..i will get a stoney point headspace gauge shortly...i figure that i need to measure a fired case & then learn tp adjust my dies to bump it a bit ??? maybe unless i am trying to get max life out of brass without "bumping" a neck sizer may work ?? sorry if i opened a can "o" worms here...i don't expect instant help via...the internet...however i do appreciate the fact i can gain the knowledge from your guy's experiance's...my gut feeling is to try a neck sizer...thanks.

Offline Mac11700

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Re: headspace...
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2006, 07:03:50 PM »
Davw:

A neck sizer die isn't a bad thing :D...and FWIW..I say by all means pick up one...All of my die sets are of the 3 die type..and they do just what they are supposed to do...and the beauty of using them..is you don't have to worry about pushing the shoulder back or sizing the case down...

As far as learning to bump the sholders back...this is really a-lot easier than you can imagine...all it takes is a candle or bic lighter..and learning how to smoke the case so you can actually see where the die is making contact...Some folks size all the way down to the shoulder-neck junction..some only size a bullet diameter lenght down the neck from the case mouth...some bench rest shooters...well...they do all sorts of things to squeeze the tiniest fraction of accuracy from it...in their world...attaining the perfect 0 is what it's all about...and .0001" make or break winning and losing matches...We don't have to go to that extream...but...you can if you want too...

Redding and Forster dies are some of the best mass produced dies as far as I am concerned...They aren't as cheap as say Hornady's,Lyman's,and RCBS...but..if you can afford them...they are a worthy investment. You can find some really good deals on used sets on our classifieds and e-bay...I've gotten quite a few used sets this way...and sent them in to be reconditioned for a fraction of their original cost...My last 3 die set of Forster's 25-06 dies cost me $5.00 :o...and I sent them in to them..and had them back in a week, looking like brand new fully reconditioned for $30.00...so..it is worth keeping an eye out for them...

Good Luck

Mac
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