Author Topic: Galloper (Read 3662 times)

accuratemike · « **on:** September 12, 2006, 07:17:39 PM »

I've been looking for more info on Rev War 3 pounder "Gallopers" . I'm just about to the end of the internet, and the Google "search GBO" button isn't working for me. (I just keep ending up back at the list of forums, there were two 3pdr threads I can't get to) So I'll just ask. Usually George will save me 9hrs of fruitless hunting.
I did find this

I'm hunting for both a barrel drawing and carriage stuff. The project is a good ways off, I have to build a bed for the GBM and start the GBH. My son plays Rev War drum, and for him to go out on the field he needs a guardian with him. I marched up and down hills at the Battle of the Brandywine last weekend. I couldn't help but notice the artillery guys didn't run around near as much. (BTW, they wore WAY too much clothes in those days) So the wheels are turning. I think I could deal with the ~36" 3 pounder barrel, and a galloper hitched directly to a horse (lest my wife gets involved) ((saving me the only drawback to artillery, dragging the gun up the hill in the first place {although Washington had a tractor this time})) My son is a celebrity, I'm a recruit. It would be a shame for him to see me keel over in a (HUGE) pile of sweaty wool. The folks in the cannon crews looked like they were having FUN.
Anyhow, TIA. MIKE

GGaskill · « **Reply #1 on:** September 12, 2006, 09:04:12 PM »

(-: There is a 3/4 view drawing of a three pounder on a galloper carriage on p. 39 of Round Shot and Rammers but no plan or elevation views which makes a construction drawing somewhat hit or miss. From the table on p. 41 (AD 1764), the length is 3'6" and the weight is 312 lbs if brass, and 4'6" long and 812 lbs if cast iron (table p. 42.)

Double D · « **Reply #2 on:** September 12, 2006, 10:40:04 PM »

Mike,

Try posting your request over on http://www.mlagb.com/cgi/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=cannon That is a Britishsh board and one of those guys just might have a drawing for you.

A.Roads · « **Reply #3 on:** September 13, 2006, 06:43:55 PM »

A very good place for you to begin your research is http://www.manatarmsbooks.com/mrsinventory.html there is a lot of artillery related articles there relevant to what you are interested in. Have your P.C. do a search on the document (via "Edit" "Find on this page") for "Caruana". This will take you to the many articles written by the late Adrian Caruana, who was one of the world's leading artillery authorities. You will also find a book there of his, Grasshoppers & Butterfiles - that I believe will be of value to you. Adrian.

accuratemike · « **Reply #4 on:** September 13, 2006, 08:41:47 PM »

Thanks ! I'll get some books together and go from there. I appreciate your help. MIKE

threepdr · « **Reply #5 on:** September 18, 2006, 07:52:26 AM »

Your pic did not come up on my PC so I don't know what you have already. "ATreatise on Artillery", 1780, by John Muller has a drawing of a galloper carriage and all the dimensions. Muller's book has been reprinted and is avilible from several sources.

The carriage was suggested by Muller as an alternative for small bore guns, 3 pdr and smaller. It is not intended for any specific tube.

I do Rev War artillery in the Brigade of the American Revolution and the Contental Line. The Galloper is often a subject of conversation. The reason is that we cannot find any period source that proves that they were actually used. Yes, Muller suggests them, and lots of secondary sources such as "Round Shot and Rammers" and "Artillery Through The Ages" describe them, but we can't find any ordinance returns or period accounts that prove they were used. We suspect the secondary sources are relying only on Muller's Treatise for including them in their works.

Here are some shot of my full size Congrieve that we use in Rev War and War of 1812 events

http://news.webshots.com/album/231133419pBaOUJ

Mark Hubbs
First Continental Artillery

accuratemike · « **Reply #6 on:** September 18, 2006, 11:29:11 AM »

threepdr, we must be on different internets. I wasn't able to se your pics either. Thanks for the leads on Galloper info. I'll be buying some books soon....Here is the pic I found in link form: http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/images/Galloper18thC.jpg . Thanks again for your input, MIKE

GGaskill · « **Reply #7 on:** September 18, 2006, 11:55:50 AM »

There does seem to be evidence that Burgoyne's army had three pounders in its TO&E.

accuratemike · « **Reply #8 on:** September 18, 2006, 03:09:45 PM »

Quote from: threepdr on September 18, 2006, 07:52:26 AM

I do Rev War artillery in the Brigade of the American Revolution and the Contental Line. The Galloper is often a subject of conversation. The reason is that we cannot find any period source that proves that they were actually used.

Mark, I visited the B.A.R. site and was wondering, would this preclude being able to participate with a galloper ? I'm new to the hobby and this correctness thing scares me. I think my haversack may be canvas too

If so, I have also looked at grassshoppers a bit. Any record of these being used ? I guess I'm looking for a minimalist set-up for a 3pdr barrel. Something that can be towed on a utility trailer behind a SUV (not a huge one either), and moved around a bit under (old) manpower. A galloper's limberlessness seemed to be a plus for me too. Over time I might be able to bring a horse (emphasis on "A", i.e. single, horse) to the party. I live on enough land that my wife has ALWAYS wanted one (could be just enough of a lever to get cannon permission). This pic of a model is pretty close to where I would like to end up

( http://www.anticsonline.co.uk/l.aspx?k=1262343 )

BTW, we are going to Yorktown, I'm sure there will be plenty there to see. Thanks, MIKE

threepdr · « **Reply #9 on:** September 18, 2006, 03:14:09 PM »

Mike,

I'm on my home computer now and I can see your pic. That is the pic from Muller's Treatise. The book also has a page of measurments for the varisous parts of the carriage. The wheels are 50 inch if I remember right, and the shafts are about 11 feet, so that will give some scale for you.

GGaskill mentioned that Burgoyne's army had 3 pounders in its TO&E. This is absolutely correct. In fact every army had them in use for the entire war. The only other size more common was the 6pdr.

However, it must be understood that 3 pounder does not mean galloper. The galloper is only a carriage style, not a gun size. It is the galloper carraige that we can find no documentation for use.

There were two basic sizes of 3 pdr field guns used. The first was the standard size gun. (See link in my previous post). The standard size gun was either bronze or iron, had wheels from 42 to 50 inches in size and wieghed around 1000 - 1200 lbs with its boxes and implements.

The other three pounder was the "Grasshopper" or "Butterfly" (carriage differences) with the Verbruggen tube. these were small bronze guns that were much lighter and manuverable than the standard gun. Although they had a 3 pdr bore, they shot a smaller charge and did not have the same range and capabilities as the standard size gun. They wieghed only about 600lb if I remember right. Only 73 Verbruggens were made and probably only about half of those found there way to North America. They were relitively uncommon.

threepdr · « **Reply #10 on:** September 18, 2006, 03:24:15 PM »

Mike,

No I don't think that the galloper carriage would preclude its use. I have seen a few at events. They are, after all documented in a period source (Muller's Treatise) so no one questions them. It is just that us purists debate the first person documentation thing a bit!

The 3 pdr Grasshopper is the most common size gun I see at events, even though they were relitively uncommon during the war. My standard size 3 pdr is one of the larger size gun I've seen. I've only seen 2 six pounders in all the years I've been doing this.

Generaly, artillery in Rev War reenactments is not nearly as well done as in Civil War. Many of the guns are subscale and of questionable construction. If you did a really good quality galloper carriage, really did it right according to Muller's, you would actually be ahead of the game.

We will be at Yorktown. Long driver from Alabama. We will get on site Friday night and have to leave about noon on SUnday.

Mark

accuratemike · « **Reply #11 on:** September 18, 2006, 04:32:17 PM »

Quote from: threepdr on September 18, 2006, 03:24:15 PM

Mike,

No I don't think that the galloper carriage would preclude its use. ... Many of the guns are subscale and of questionable construction. If you did a really good quality galloper carriage, really did it right according to Muller's, you would actually be ahead of the game.... Long driver from Alabama.

Mark

Mark, that's what I wanted to hear. Gotta have my goals. If I think about a cannon enough, it may eventually happen. I guess I'd better be saving my nickels for a musket too. And working on my Manual of Arms (this indulging my 14 yr old's drumming is getting tough). I did roughly ~1000mi each way from Chesapeake City, MD to Hartsell AL (solo) to pick-up a tractor once (grey-market Yanmar). I feel your pain. Maybe we'll see you at Yorktown. I'll be the really sweaty guy in the VI MD. My son will be the drummer that looks like he is having fun. Thanks again for your help, MIKE

Cannoneer · « **Reply #12 on:** September 19, 2006, 11:04:48 PM »

http://johnsmilitaryhistory.com/threepdr.html

accuratemike · « **Reply #13 on:** September 20, 2006, 12:26:27 PM »

I have seen that "Grasshopper". Grasshoppers and Gallopers are very different carriages. A Grasshopper gets it's name from two long extension "pikes" that could be slid into the trails to allow some movement under human power. The name comes from how it looked with these in place (long legs). A galloper has wide enough trails to be hitched directly to a horse (no limber). I think "Grasshoppers" are sometimes also called "Butterflies". Either that or, a Butterfly is another beast alltogether. Pretty nice details in the pics on the "Grasshopper" site though. I have spent a good bit of time looking at that one

. MIKE

EDIT: I just read that "Butterfly" was used to describe a light gun (grasshopper ?) on it's limber.....

Cannoneer · « **Reply #14 on:** September 22, 2006, 08:51:48 PM »

Mike, I knew the galloper and grasshopper were different carriage types. Threepdr had mentioned the grasshopper and I thought there might be some interest in seeing the photos. I've seen the drawing you posted on a Polish artillery site and I remember another European site that had a couple gallopers that were photographed in an historic battle reenactment but for the life of me I can't recall the name of the site; if I should happen to remember it I'll post it. This is from the Canadian Cannon Company, I don't know how accurate the content is; "Colloquially the galloper carriage was sometimes called a grasshopper carriage to distinguish it from a light gun with a limber, which was called a butterfly. These were slang terms, however, and sometimes they were used very loosely".

accuratemike · « **Reply #15 on:** September 22, 2006, 09:38:20 PM »

And I just read the same on a modeling site's page (that gallopers were called grasshoppers to differentiate them from butterflies), credited to “The Book of The Continental Soldier” by Harold L. Peterson. I think this is a pretty loose area for sure. I first downloaded/saved the pics of that grasshopper in March, before I was even thinking that way, because there is alot to see there. I'm leaning twords a Verbruggen sized 3pdr tube on a galloper carriage. Mostly just wishful planning. Thanks, MIKE

Cannoneer · « **Reply #16 on:** September 23, 2006, 04:05:59 PM »

Mike, this is the site I was referring to, it's Scandinavian, so I'm guessing both gallopers are probably of northern European design. Do you know anything about the history of how the driver of the horse was mounted? Just from looking at them, I always assumed the galloper carriage was driven the same way our later Mt. Howitzer on a prairie carriage was sometimes driven; with the artillery driver mounted on the horse or mule. The same as the photo of the British miniature from Antic's that you posted. In fact from the few drawings I've seen they would have had to be driven this way, because I don't recall seeing any cross-brace spanning the two trail poles. One of the gallopers in these photos has padded leather over the cross-brace. Woudn't this have been done to sit on it? This would also explain the length of the two poles. It's curious, it seems to me this would be dangerous. The driver would have had a terrible field of vision and what would he have done with his legs, thrown them over the poles. In any event, here's the site, click on the picture.

http://www.arkeliet.net?::

accuratemike · « **Reply #17 on:** September 25, 2006, 12:05:10 PM »

Boom, I looked over the Scandinavian site. I couldn't navigate my way to Gallopers though. I have no idea how they were actually driven. I too, assumed that the scenario in the model picture was how it was done. I tried to find a translator for Scandinavian to English, alas, no Babelfish for that one. I'll dig around on that site more soon. Thanks, MIKE

Cannoneer · « **Reply #18 on:** September 25, 2006, 10:01:42 PM »

Mike, when you open the site I posted just click on the large photo, then a photo file will come up with the two gallopers and some other 18th century guns.

brass cannon · « **Reply #19 on:** September 28, 2006, 09:30:59 AM »

I have spoken with several established experts about gallopers for several years and have come up with the following. Muller has dimensions for a galloper in his "Treatise on Artillery" and he suggests it might serve for 3 pounders. That could include a King Howitzer. We can find no documentation for galloper carriages having been used on this continent. This morning I noted one at a reenactment on a Swedish site. That might be a copy of an original but who knows. The probability is that Muller was documenting a common carriage of the time. There is a drawing from the middle ages showing a "galloper" carriage on pg 18 of "Guns - an Illustrated History of Artillery" by Jobe. The original drawing is at the University Library at Basel Switzerland. Paul Ackerman, a curator at West Point Military Museum and Inspector for the BAR doesn't have a problem with gallopers on the field of a BAR event but its lack of documentation needs to be pointed out when discussing it. Personally, I have made a two shafted cart which I can use to carry supplies around the field. It will also mount my King Howitzer which Ackerman says will be interesting in a battle scenario. There is an artillery company in the north east which has built a nice galloper and it may be at Yorktown. I'll also be there with Lamb's Artillery.

threepdr · « **Reply #20 on:** September 29, 2006, 08:38:45 AM »

Brass Cannon,

When you say King Howitzer, do you mean a Daniel King Howitzer? If so, those were not made until the 1790s. I'm surpised Paul is supporting its use at BAR events.

If not a Daniel King, which size howitzer do you mean? It would be intesting to see how it is mounted on a Gallaper.

mark hubbs
1st Cont Arty, BAR

GGaskill · « **Reply #21 on:** September 29, 2006, 08:48:59 AM »

Mr. Hubbs,
You might read this article from Military Collector & Historian that talks about King Howiters during the Revolutionary period.

threepdr · « **Reply #22 on:** September 29, 2006, 04:43:17 PM »

GGaslill,

Very interesting! What issue of the MCH did the "further notes" come out of? I had read the earlier articles but the info in the further notes in news to me.

Based on the evidence presented about the work location of Daniel King and the other notes about the Howitzers and Petronos (sic) he was making during the Rev War, I'm not totally convinced that what he was making then is the same howitzers that we know he made in the 1790s. However the other research does proves to me that some style of brass and iron 3pdr howitzers were being used. "four 3-inch Howitzers, 1060 shells, 200 grape shot, 200 canister shot, 200 "Round Cartridges," 200 tubes, and 1068 fuses." That quote is pretty convincing to me.

Opens up a whole bunch of possibilities!

Mark

GGaskill · « **Reply #23 on:** September 29, 2006, 08:19:32 PM »

The MC&H issue is Vol. XXXIX No. 4, WINTER, 1987.

accuratemike · « **Reply #24 on:** September 30, 2006, 07:41:00 AM »

Boom, I looked at the Scandanavian Gallopers and I agree, those seats don't look like a good idea. I have not seen such seats on others. Possibly because the driver would have been directly subjected to the horse's "tailpipe emissions". I like the driver being mounted on the horse, as in the pic of the model above. Thanks again, MIKE