Bullet Expansion – Not sure if I believe it…

[utahman]

OK, I do believe it, but not for certain .22 LR hunting.  Keep reading!

I jack rabbit hunt with my .22, and my question is about bullet expansion.  I usually use HV 38g American Eagle Hollow Points as my gun shoots these very accurately.

Most of my shots are between 50 and 75 yards.  That puts the velocity at around 1050 and the energy left at about 100 ft-lbs.  I don’t think the bullets are really expanding much if at all with these ballistics.  To be honest though, I’ve never opened up a rabbit after one of these shots to see…don’t touch the jackies…

Here is my reasoning:  The bullet is hitting the rabbits at about the same muzzle velocity as a subsonic round.  I’ve looked at some tests done here:
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189675&highlight=Buckmark+ammo+testing+Pt.+I
I’m assuming these test were done a fairly close ranges.  (Getting verification on this.)
His shot #5 was from a Remington sub-sonic HP round.  As shown in the thread above, the bullet expansion was…well, didn’t happen.

Is my above theory valid?  Can someone give me proof that expansion truly does happen with .22 LR HV Hollow Points taken between 50 and 75 yards? 

Now, lets not get started about the whole water jug testing theory, I see it this way, from another “tester”.  To paraphrase, he said water should show the “maximum” upset that occurs to a bullet in soft tissue.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot13.htm
Tests revealed only very slight expansion.  Again at close range.

Also on this site, it shows expansion on various bullets in ballistic gelatin:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/22LR.html
Don’t know much about ballistic gelatin, but some expansion seemed to happen, but all at close range.  However, in this ballistic gelatin test the subsonic Aguila SE 38g lead hollow point bullet did expand, unlike the water jug tests mentioned above.  Expansion was .340 and .344 at 1002 ft/sec.  But at what point is the bullet expanding, if at all in a jack rabbit?  For all I know, the bullets that did expand in the ballistic gelatin tests expanded during the last 2 inches of their 10 to 15” travel.  Most jack rabbits are less then 6” thick.

Can anyone shed some light to this?  Anyone concur or would like to rebuttal?

[aulrich]

Bullet test are more of a guide line than anything, a very in-exact science. For years I loved that AE load shot lots of grouse and rabbits. But the real test of 22 lr expansion is ground squirrels, and the are load that you you talk about is mediocre at best at anchoring a gopher (which bugs the crap out of me because my 10/22 loves them). Now for me my two favorites are cci minimag HP and yellow jackets, now those will anchor a gopher at 75 yards, with a nice resounding POP!. I never have used velocitors or stingers I don't see the need the hmr does such a better job at 100+.

If you want to get expansion at those ranges you should try the mini mags, yellow jakets or an hmr.

[SHOOTALL]

use solids ! with a shape like a Remington viper , it works on ground hogs where yellow jackets give alot of surface damage but not penetration !

[utahman]

Bullet test are more of a guide line than anything, a very in-exact science. For years I loved that AE load shot lots of grouse and rabbits. But the real test of 22 lr expansion is ground squirrels, and the are load that you you talk about is mediocre at best at anchoring a gopher (which bugs the crap out of me because my 10/22 loves them). Now for me my two favorites are cci minimag HP and yellow jackets, now those will anchor a gopher at 75 yards, with a nice resounding POP!. I never have used velocitors or stingers I don't see the need the hmr does such a better job at 100+.

If you want to get expansion at those ranges you should try the mini mags, yellow jakets or an hmr.

Interesting comments about the cci minimag hp.  To me, the AE would be a better round, at least on paper they seem to be.

(quoted from manufacture’s websites unless otherwise noted.)

The CCI Mini-Mag 36gr HP
BC: 0.126 (http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...ad.php?t=57007)
Bullet Weight: 36gr
Bullet Type: Copper-plated Hollow Point
Muzzle Velocity: 1260 50yd 1104 100yd 1003
Muzzle Energy: 127 50yd 97 100yd 80

American Eagle 38gr HP
BC: 0.132 (http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...ad.php?t=57007)
Bullet Weight: 38gr
Bullet Type: Copper-plated Hollow Point
Muzzle Velocity: 1260 50yd 1110 100yd 1010
Muzzle Energy: 134 50yd 104 100yd 86

Many people rave at how great the CCI Mini-mag is. If your gun shoots one better then the other, then I would think it to be a no brainer. However, by the looks of things, the American Eagle has the edge, and on sale, a box of 40 are only .89 cents!

So, tell me what I’m missing here about the mini-mags? I just don’t get it…

[aulrich]

One of the things that is good about the mini-mags is it's general accuracy in a world where "feed it what it likes" is the rule I have not seen a load liked by so many rifles. But no matter how accurate or how much energy it has if it does not expand and use that energy it's not worth it.  What we found actual  ammo cost using mini mags to be darn near the same, with most of the lower cost ammo we found it 2 or 3 shot were required to  stop the crawlers, where with the better ammo they are DRT.

I still grind though alot of bulk quality ammo but at the flipper target or grouse.


I would recommend you buy some and try them you will see the difference.

[Scibaer]

Im nearing the end of a testing session, testing the effectiveness of Hp's vs soilds. by weight or velocity, i  saw no difference in HP's i did not find them expanding or otherwise outperforming solids.  what i did find, is the heavier and faster the round the better it worked ( no brainer ) .. Hollowpoints  did not factor in.
my tests were not that scientific and i copyed 'the box of truth" guy and how he tests ammo.
glenn

[trotterlg]

Question would be answered by you if you would just open up a rabbit and take a look.  Seems like an easy thing to me, am I missing something?  If you want to know what it does in a rabbit I would take a look at a bullet in one, then you can tell us all.  If you can't stand to cut one open perhaps you can find a friend who can.  Larry

[GatCat]

If your bullets are going through the rabbits, why don't you prop up a dead one, with a thin piece of stiff cardboard, or a thick piece of paper behind it, shoot it at your normal distance, and take a good look ( or measure ) the entry hole in the paper. If your bullets don't exit, maybe do the same, but aim for a thinner or "softer" part, so you get an exit, and can see effect on paper.
Or, if the bullets don't exit, blast a dead one 5 or 6 times, and bury the carcass in an anthill. Come back in a month or so and if some bigger critter hasn't got to it, there should just be some bones, some hide, and your bullets in the area.
Mark

[Badge54]

 I once heard someone say "Shooting squirrels with a .22lr is like hunting deer with a .50cal Barret."

Next time you are at the range take a phone book that has been soaked in water and shoot it.   You can then peel the pages to retrieve the bullets.  I put them in a cooler of water before I went.  Some neat looking rounds recovered.  Some expand some don't.

Badge54

[mcwoodduck]

I've used Badge54's method in the past but have found that a 2 liter bottle filled with jello lets you see the path and the wound canal. (Cool or cold days are best.  The sun will melt the jello and fill in your canal)  Shoot them in the bottom angled away.  Believe it or not lead is a pretty tough metal.  Besides who cares if they expand  Most probably zing right through the Rabbit and cause enough damage to be fatal.   .22 lr is a lot better of a round than we give it credit.
By the way I use either CB longs or .17Hmr on Jack Rabbits.  The CB is quiet for around the house and the HMR I do not have to worry about a ricochet here in So Cal if I miss or do not hit bone.