Ballistics? .35 Rem vs. .38-55?

[mannyrock]

Dear Guys,

   Sorry to ask, but could someone please post the factory ballistics for the .35 Remington compared to the .38-55? (At 100 yards and 150 yards?)   I don't reload, so no need to list any of those.

  Thanks very much.

Mannyrock

[quickdtoo]

Here are manufacturer's ballistics for Rem, Win and Buffalo Bore.

Tim


http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/comparative_ballistics_results.aspx?data=R35R1*R35R2

http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/cfrdetail.aspx?symbol=X3855&cart=MzgtNTUgV2luY2hlc3Rlcg==

http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/cfrdetail.aspx?symbol=X35R1&cart=MzUgUmVtaW5ndG9u

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=166

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=159


Here's a great article on actual 35 Rem performance.

http://www.suitorsgarage.com/gunstuff/35remington/factoryloadpart1.html

[mannyrock]

  Thanks Tim,

   It looks like the .35 Rem beats the .38-55 in every reasonable way.  So much for the idea of buying a handi in .38-55.

  Thanks,

  Mannyrock

[quickdtoo]

The H&R 38-55 Target is no longer made, last year they made it was 2007, prior to that it had a SAAMI spec'd chamber that was too tight to chamber bullets big enough to shoot well in the .380"+ bore, they required chamber neck reaming to allow .381" or bigger cast bullets to be loaded which then shot real good. I have a 2007 model that has a .379" bore, shoots .379" jacketed and .380" cast bullets excellent. The nice thing about the H&R is it uses the same frame as the Handi which is factory chambered in several high pressure rounds such as 270 win and 500S&W, which allows it to be loaded to 375Win pressures, I use Starline long 38-55 brass and either .380" 330gr gas checked cast at 1850fps, or .379" 220gr jacketed soft points I got from Boer Bullets at 2375fps using 375Win data(NOT SAFE IN 38-55 LEVERGUNS), the 28" barrel makes quite a difference in velocity.  So if you can find a late model CR-3855, go for it. 

Tim

[Cottonwood]

I found a deal on a nice Marlin 336 in .35 Rem, and I think I just may pick it up, as it also has the Ashley Ghost Rings sights too. 

[AtlLaw]

I use Starline long 38-55 brass and either .380" 330gr gas checked cast at 1850fps, or .379" 220gr jacketed soft points I got from Boer Bullets at 2375fps using 375Win data

Ah Timmy!  You've done it again!     So I can use 375 Win data for experimenting with my 38/55!?  Sounds reasonable now that you've said it.      I was wondering why I couldn't load those .379," 265 gr. jacketed bullets I have up some from the rather anemic published loads I've found.  I am now a happy man!   

[quickdtoo]

Richard,

If you mean your 38-55 H&R, yes, 375Win loads are safe, , you can actually go a bit higher in 38-55 brass since there's a bit more room, I went 1gr over Lyman data, in fact, 375Win Big Bore levergun owners use 30-30 and 38-55 brass specifically for that reason. GBO member Haywire Haywood had a 223 Ultra rechambered and rebored to 375Win, sold it to eskimo36 last year.

Tim

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=2137&highlight=.375+win

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,154527.msg1098663624.html#msg1098663624

[Halwg]

I found a deal on a nice Marlin 336 in .35 Rem, and I think I just may pick it up, as it also has the Ashley Ghost Rings sights too. 

I'd jump on it.  You'll really like the 35 Remington.

[AtlLaw]

If you mean your 38-55 H&R, yes, 375Win loads are safe,

Thanks Tim.  I looked up the 38-55 on loaddata.com and was supprised to find that most of the loads listed used comparatively light bullets; cast and jacketed.  I think the heaviest was around 250 grs.  And my nice, new jacketed .379 bullets weigh 265 gr.     But now I have some reference material!  Thanks!

P.S.  Looks like 3031 might be a good place to start!  And I already have with 28 gr.!  Look out 34!!   

[quickdtoo]

Lonewolf5348 has been working with 3031, he's done good, my 330gr loads were worked up using QuickLoad predictions using Lyman 38-55 data to work up from. 

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,146357.msg1098598442.html#msg1098598442

[Blackhawker]

I use Starline long 38-55 brass and either .380" 330gr gas checked cast at 1850fps, or .379" 220gr jacketed soft points I got from Boer Bullets at 2375fps using 375Win data

Ah Timmy!  You've done it again!     So I can use 375 Win data for experimenting with my 38/55!?  Sounds reasonable now that you've said it.      I was wondering why I couldn't load those .379," 265 gr. jacketed bullets I have up some from the rather anemic published loads I've found.  I am now a happy man!   

Richard,
I've been tinkering with my 38-55 for a while now too.  I'm not using the longer version of the 38-55 brass so my data is a little different from Tim and Lonewolf.  Nonetheless, YES, you can crank up the charges.  I've started some experimenting with mine as well, using IMR-3031, IMR-4198 and 2400 powder as well.  I've yet to find any published data for 2400 so I guess I've been developing my own loads here.      The 2400 has been working well for me.  Still might be anemic for you though.  I think my most accurate loads are running 265 FPGC's at about 1600 fps or so.  (I wish I had a chronograph!)

Anyway, I've found that I can't get repeated accuracy when I get up to the loads that Tim and Lonewolf are using.  Perhaps it's because of the length of the brass, perhaps my bullet type?  Not quite sure.  Whatever the case, my loads are on the heavier side of the published data but when I push them further, my accuracy suffers.  Since I have boatloads of the shorter brass, I'm probably not going to go to the longer version just yet.  If you haven't bought much brass yet, I'd recommend getting the longer stuff before you get too deep into the shorter stuff.  I wish I did that when I got started with my 38-55.

[AtlLaw]

If you haven't bought much brass yet, I'd recommend getting the longer stuff before you get too deep into the shorter stuff.  I wish I did that when I got started with my 38-55.

I've got a hundred pieces of new Winchester brass.  Never even thought about the short or long issue when I bought it... 

[coyotejoe]

Wait a minute, I thought this was "Lever Action Rifles", how'd we get into H&R singleshots?

[AtlLaw]

Wait a minute, I thought this was "Lever Action Rifles", how'd we get into H&R singleshots?

Uh Oh!  You right!     I just got caught up in the question and forgot it was limited to leverguns... Mia Culpa.   

So then, limited to the same pressure levels, are we saying that the 35 Rem. out performs the 38-55?     By what criteria?  Velocity?  What about bullet diameter and weight?

And since the 38-55 can be loaded up to approach or match the 35's velocity wouldn't that make it ballistically superior to the ol' 35 in all respects?

So I guess that makes pressure the governing variable here.  And, since we are in the levergun forum we should assume that limitation or this whole discussion should be in the handloading forum!   

Now, if the rifle in question won't handle the higher pressure that would simplify matters somewhat, but we don't know what rifle Manny is going to use.     So, as a little background:¹

"Someone at Winchester came up with the idea of modernizing the ancient Winchester Model 94 on the inside, while keeping the basic configuration on the outside. By beefing up the Model 94, the grand old design would be able to accommodate pressures in the range of 37,000 to 52,000 CUP (Copper Units of Pressure)."

"Three new cartridges would be introduced. ... the 100 year-old .38-55 was modernized into the .375 Winchester."

"The .375 Winchester came first in 1978 in the then new Model 94 Big Bore.   ...   Marlin also jumped on the bandwagon, but not for long. The .375 Winchester would be produced from 1980 to 1983"

"The .375 Winchester, which was nothing more than Winchester's attempt to modernize the .38-55, had died. Strangely enough, the .38-55, a black powder cartridge dating back to the 1880s, is still available in current production leverguns."
To be continued in the next post

1 - all quotes from Guns Magazine, August, 2003, John Taffin

[AtlLaw]

Now, assuming the quotes to be accurate, if Manny is using a Winchester lever gun, unless it is an old "Big Bore" he is limited to SAMMI pressures.  But nothing in the cite indicates that Marlin needed to strengthen their receivers to handle the 375 Winchester, so it is reasonable to assume the 38-55 can be loaded to, at least somewhat higher pressures in that weapon.  And, just for the sake of comparison,    we know that the H&R can handle higher pressures still!

So, the question now becomes "how much can the pressure be increase and at what point does the resultant increase in velocity out weigh that advantage resting in the 35 Rem, factoring in the increased bullet diameter and weight of the projectile used in the 38-55?   

Remembering the title of this thread is Ballistics?  .35 Rem vs. .38-55?, if we refer back to the original post we see that...     we see ...     Oh crap!   

All Manny said was "could someone please post the factory ballistics for the .35 Remington compared to the .38-55?"  and what's more he said "I don't reload"   

It looks like Tim answered that question in the very next post!     So how'd we get into reloading the 38-55?  Everything after Tim's post was a waste of breath!     Well, maybe not actually breath, but you know what I mean... Oh well, sometimes I like to comment on things that really don't make any difference.   

[quickdtoo]

I'll take the blame for bringing up the reloading aspect since that's the only way to get the H&R to shoot accurately, ain't gonna happen with factory ammo unless maybe if it's a 2007 barrel anyway. Since Mannyrock's question was based on an H&R rifle, I'll move this thread to the H&R forum. 

Tim

[AtlLaw]

 

[Blackhawker]

Hey, sorry guys.  I guess I got side-tracked too.  The thread IS for factory loads.  I guess I was just in a big hurry to leave the office when I posted on Friday.  Despite the discussion of load data, I see I even mixed up some of my info on powder comparisons too.  I'll remove the comment about Unique and Trail Boss.  I guess I was confusing things with my 45-70 loads.    The 2400 info still holds though.

As far as factory ammo loads and levergun loads go, I suppose it would be fair to just compare the Buffalo Bore loads for comparison of modern rifles.  The Winchester ammo is made for old lower pressure 38-55's as I understand.  Plus, if one does get into reloading down the road, these loads can easily be reproduced and still should be safe for modern 94's and 336's. 

When comparing by velocity alone, the 35 Rem wins but if you consider bullet weight, bullet design, and overall kill power, I think the added 25 grains and flat point might be worth considering.  (I didn't do the math for balistic info...sorry)  Plus, out to 150 yards, there doesn't seem to be a significant difference in bullet drop.  When just "eyeballing" that data, I'd say the're about the same so I guess the next thing to look at is cost.  It looks like the 35 Rem is a little cheaper.  So there ya go....

[coyotejoe]

I'll take the blame for bringing up the reloading aspect since that's the only way to get the H&R to shoot accurately, ain't gonna happen with factory ammo unless maybe if it's a 2007 barrel anyway. Since Mannyrock's question was based on an H&R rifle, I'll move this thread to the H&R forum. 

Tim

This is all too funny Tim!   Where did you get the idea Mannyrock was asking about H&Rs? He only asked about ballistics of .35 Rem vs 38/55 and since he originally posted in leverguns and since H&R has never built a .35 Rem I think it more likely he was not at all asking about H&R.   But with your post of factory ballistics you did give him the only answer he got!

[quickdtoo]

Your eyes are failing you CJ, I hope you can still shoot better than you read!!  I didn't breech the H&R topic until he brought it up, and this thread is his afterall. H&R was gonna offer the 35Rem, Able Ammo had it listed for a while, but there weren't enough distrubutor preorders and the run was canceled for this year, may still happen, but I suspect the 35 Whelen popularity will preempt it.

Tim

  Thanks Tim,

   It looks like the .35 Rem beats the .38-55 in every reasonable way.  So much for the idea of buying a handi in .38-55.

  Thanks,

  Mannyrock

[Blackhawker]

Actually, in Tim's defense, Mannyrock didn't say anything about leverguns in his first or second post.  Leverguns weren't mentioned until Montanan brought up the Marlin 336.  Albeit that H&R never made a 35 Rem in a Handi, I still never saw the word "Levergun" or "Lever Action" in the original post. 

Oh well.....  All in good humor!