Author Topic: The .356 Winchester, greatest lever caliber of 'em all (Read 14663 times)

Smokey · « **on:** January 05, 2003, 03:45:21 AM »

Several months ago I was fortunate to acquire a Model 94 in .356 Winchester. I just LOVE this gun and took a small whitetail buck with it on my Montana trip this year. Before I bought the gun, I did a lot of reading about the caliber. One of the 'warnings' I heard was that recoil was pretty stout. After firing a box of Winchester 250 grain commercial loads, I was left wondering why anyone would be scared away from the caliber because of recoil, which was noticeably less than my .30-06 with 180 grain commercial loads. I've acquired an ample supply of new brass and Speer bullets, both in 220 and 180 grain weights, and look forward to using this rifle on everything from deer to (if I ever draw a tag) moose. Though my rifle now wears a Williams peeper, I'm going to replace it with a 4x fixed power scope because 1) these 50 years-old eyes aren't good enough to take advantage of a peep anymore, and because the scope should help me take better advantage of the rifle's power and range, which are both impressive. In terms of ballistics, this rifle with 220 grain loads ought to be the cat's meow for elk up to 200 yds, and it is a superb deer caliber up to 250 yds., depending upon the skill of the shooter. Why Winchester and Marlin don't reintroduce this great caliber is beyond me. Since I bought my first .356, I've been looking for a second...and their harder than snail's teeth to find.

I'd really enjoy hearing others' stories/impressions of the great .356 Winchester.

Daveinthebush · « **Reply #1 on:** January 05, 2003, 05:03:45 AM »

I was reading last night and the author of the artical suggested that the .358 Win is actually the same cartridge as the .356. There was only a few thousands of an inch difference in the rim diameter. And, in fact he was able to insert the .358's in the Winchester. NOT, suggesting you try it!
Either way, the ballistics are nearly the same which makes it a great short range round. The .358 is a sleeper that died of bad publicity as did the .356. Like you mentioned, recoil was the fea on the cartridges butt.
Have fun, I love the .35's!

Graybeard · « **Reply #2 on:** January 05, 2003, 05:47:32 AM »

The reason they won't bring it back is because folks wouldn't buy them when first introduced. The companies have no reason to assume they would sell any better now. The .35 caliber other than the .35 Remington just doesn't sell. Folks want either a .338 or a .375 and just won't buy .358s. Even the excellent .358 and .35 Whelan are nearly dead as far as factory rifles go.

Do not attempt to fire a .358 Win. in the .356 Win. Yes it will physically fit but likely wouldn't eject as it doesn't have a rim. BUT more importantly it is loaded to pressures higher than are safe in the Winchester and Marlin rifles. That's why it wasn't used and the .356 was developed. It operates at lower pressures.

GB

Daveinthebush · « **Reply #3 on:** January 05, 2003, 06:02:45 AM »

I don't know why hunters don't like the .35's. A quick search on four auction sites produced no .356's, only 2 .358's. Interesting though I found about 5-6 .358 Norma Mags. Now there is a .35 caliber for you! Beats anything out there and would be a great Alaskan gun. Found one 760 that was rebarrled to .358 Win. That would make a great brush gun.

jhm · « **Reply #4 on:** January 05, 2003, 06:38:15 AM »

If the majority of the hunter and shooters wanted a 35 cal. it would be on the shelf for sale by all of the major manufacturers. They dont give a flying F what caliber you shoot as long as you are willing to pay and pay dearly for it. They want to keep the calibers in the range where the majority of the public can handle the recoil / accuracy/ ammo cost so they can sell more of them. that is why you dont see the 35 as a hot cal. the general public just dont want it.

JIM

Daveinthebush · « **Reply #5 on:** January 05, 2003, 06:58:33 AM »

Why the 7mm, .338 & .375 ultra. They kick harder and are more expensive! Or, is it because they just want to make you think that you need a new gun that is only slightly better than something that has been around forever. Maybe the gun dealers have some automotive salesmen working for them.

Robert · « **Reply #6 on:** January 05, 2003, 09:13:21 AM »

This cartridge has quickly become my favorite for Contender for serious hunting. I didnt get anything with it this year, but it is a definate shooter. I use data similar to the 358 JDJ, although this case is a little smaller, and I cant fit some of the maximum loads in the case. I dont need the extra power anyway. 235 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip bullets look real pretty in this cartridge, and I am sure they will knock down anything they are pointed at. The .356 also works real well with 158 gr.357 XTP's. Yeehaw, very fast, flat shooting bullet, and I bet these bullets at 200 yds, will still kill better than a 357 at 20 yds. I really want to try them on a yote. Graybeard has an article comparing the 375 JDJ and the 358, and he beleives the 35 caliber has better bullet performance. I agree.

Smokey · « **Reply #7 on:** January 05, 2003, 10:42:06 AM »

There's this funny dance that has always gone on between what the industry believes people will buy and what they actually do buy. I believe that if a product is developed based upon a solid idea, all that stands betwwen it and success is some combinatin of marketing and timing. I think the failure of the Winchester Big Bores in .307 and .356 to sell widely enough to remain viable is, to a large degree, a function of some combinatin of timing and Winchester failing to properly market the gun. But now, there is clearly a resurgence of interest in the lever gun, even in the calibers that really sock the shoulder like the .444 and .45-70. The .356, .348, and .307 are ballistically superior not only to these calibers for the hunting most people do, but they are superior to the great .30-30....by a considerable margin. The bummer is that customer demand for these guns because demand is measured through actual sales and these guns aren't made anymore. So, I say 'bunk' to anyone who believes these guns are losers. More accurate, in my opinion, is that Winchester and Marlin can be blamed for not having enough interest in their customers to reintroduce and promote them even if only to test the market.

Daveinthebush · « **Reply #8 on:** January 05, 2003, 11:33:10 AM »

Well said Smokey! :agree:

John Y Cannuck · « **Reply #9 on:** January 05, 2003, 01:36:58 PM »

Check your Browning dealer, the 358 is back, in the BLR with a straight stock!
Anyone want to buy me one? :roll:

mart · « **Reply #10 on:** January 05, 2003, 05:22:26 PM »

I picked up a Winchester 94 in 356 about 3 years ago. I wasn't looking for one and really had no interest in one until a buddy showed up and asked if I still had my old saddle and would I like to do some trading. He gave me the rifle, dies, and 140 rounds of new brass for a saddle that was taking up space and would probably never be on a horse again. I immediately dove into research on the round. I settled on the Speer 220 FP and mounted a 3x Leupold on the rifle. That was no easy task as the front scope mount holes are radially drilled on my 94 instead of drilled parallel to the bore. I finally found the mounts at US Repeating Arms parts department. To make a long story short, I took a mule deer doe with it, rather unspectacularily. She just fell over, about a 100 yard shot and minimal meat damage. But it handles beautifully and is accurate enough for 200 yard deer and elk shots and arrives there with the authority to complete it's mission. I think you will really enjoy your rifle. Good luck. Mart.

Rocky · « **Reply #11 on:** January 05, 2003, 08:29:18 PM »

Smokey,

You left out the part about the majority of shooters and hunters not having enough experience and/or knowledge to really ascertain what's what. That, plus some of the garbage the gun writers spew forth certainly doesn't help matters much either.

Rocky

markc · « **Reply #12 on:** January 06, 2003, 03:20:51 AM »

to consider is that a large majority of people believe everything they read in magazines. When those fine calibers came out few magazine articles were written that gave them the credit they deserved. Today what we read the most is a magnumitis thing. If it isn't the latest and greatest magnum something or other then you just can't get by without it, and many people reading these articles are believing it.

If the .356 or .358 were re-entroduced today, it would take some knowledgable gun magazine writers promoting them to make it sell. When they begin to sell, the manufacturers make money and everybody is happy.
markc :-)

Smokey · « **Reply #13 on:** January 06, 2003, 03:31:29 PM »

I couldn't agree more that the gun rags have become all but delivery systems for corporate promotional messages. Still, it takes people willing to swallow the messages to keep the promotional train on the tracks. I'd love to see more forums and other forms of communication between hunters, shooters and reloaders that challenge the bigger-is-better mentality. As far as I'm concerned, effective and efficient are better, not bigger. To me, effective means having enough gun to get a job done cleanly/humanely, and that doesn't encourage taking irresponsibly long shots. Efficient means getting the job done without undue recoil (to hurt the shoulder) and powder (to hurt the wallet). I really object to the "what if" messages in magazines and on television that have hunters in circumstances they'll seldom if ever find themselves. We're constantly being asked, "Shouldn't you seriously consider buying the mega magnum so that you'll be able to make that long shop across the deep ravine and won't need to chase the animal 'cause it'll drop dead in its tracks from the power of that magnum, and of course you've got to be able to take that marginal shot and still kill the animal 'cause you paid so much for the hunt in the first place"? and on and on. When we purchase and use firearms based upon real life circumstances instead of fantasies and 'what if' scenarios, I think we'll start seeing more of the truly effective but not necessarily sexy calibers start to make a comerback. At least the fact that the .270, .30-06 and .30-30 are still selling well suggests that we haven't completely lost our senses. Now, if only the industry would provide leadership instead of trying to create marketing mirages...

Loozinit · « **Reply #14 on:** January 06, 2003, 04:23:12 PM »

Advocate, you got it!! We might as well read Car and Driver for the latest spin on what's hot. Not to stir anyone up, but I'm convinced this is a huge factor in the selling of the in-line muzzleloaders - it's all about the latest toy. The manu's profit from out-of-country sweatshops and the states profit from increased fees.

Pleeeeze - someone kick that box out from under me fast!!!!

Smokey · « **Reply #15 on:** January 09, 2003, 03:55:45 PM »

I hunted in central Montana this year - the Little Belts for elk (no luck...didn't even see an elk), and just outside of Lewistown, in the Snowies, for whitetail and mulies. I took a nice 8-pt whitetail and two anterless deer (one whitey and one mulie)...used the .356 on the anterless whitetail. Dropped like a stone. My brother-on-law lives in Lewistown so we had easy access to the areas we hunted. Hope to return next year though the chances are slim of getting another elk tag as I'm starting over with prefernce points. Sure do have some really friendly folks in Montana. My mother-in-law, two sister-in-law and their families all live in the Columbus area.

There's a .356 for sale now at auctionarms.com - the guy wants $495 for it. It's a newer model with the cross-bolt safety. That safety may work well but it's butt ugly! Keep your eyes peeled as ya never know when a .356 for sale will show up on one of these web sites. What a great rifle to find for one or both of your boys. By the way, Hawk Bullets makes flat points in .358 caliber (180, 200, 220 and 250 grainers). Their bullet index site is: http://www.hawkbullets.com/P-LIST.htm. Good luck with reloading!

GooseGestapo · « **Reply #16 on:** January 10, 2003, 08:13:34 AM »

I agree with Smokey and Advocate.

My problem with .356WCF is that I wanted/want a Marlin 336. I've never seen but one and let it get away before I could get back to shop with $$$. Tried to get dealer to order one, none of distributers could locate them. Seems that Marlin only made X number of them and after that, they dropped it before word could get out on it. With 180gr FN Speer at 2,700fps, it will kill deer better than most .300 and smaller magnums to 200yds. With a 220 Nosler FN partition (not presently made), it would be fabulous.
Today with internet and increased interest in good quality lever-guns, it would probably make a GO.

Marlin, if you're listening: I want mine in Stainless Steel, with GrayFinish like Ruger's, with HALF MAGAZINE, 22" bbl with Ballard style rifling, and either Walnut (checkered) finish stock or CAMO synthetic. PLEASE !!!!!!!!!!!! PRETTY PLEASE !!!!!!

Win71 · « **Reply #17 on:** January 10, 2003, 11:32:34 AM »

I'm with you Smokey and Advocate !! I'll go along with the 356 being a great lever action load. But it is going the same way as the rest of the great cartridges in this category if "real" hunters don't get their point across to the manufacturers. The gun companies with the different forms of media support have killed off all of the great lever cartridges of the past with the exception of the 30-30, 44-40 and 45-70. The 444 Marlin is still hanging around because of it's likeness to the 45-70 and Marlin is smart enough to see this. But they wouldn't keep the the 375 Winchester alive in the 336 Marlin after Winchester dropped it from the 94. Browning saw what a great rifle the Winchester model 71-348 was after it was dropped by Winchester for 20 years. It had a short life 'cause it didn't get the media guru's blessing and it's gone again! All the short magnums are hot now, watch out for goes down if we don't tell them that we don't need this crap. Don't watch the outdoor programs on TV with the corporate pretty boys shooting deer or what ever in a preserve tell you what the best rifle is. We know what it is!We've been shooting them for longer than these jerks have been around. We need the Savage '99 back with it's various loadings; 250,300,308,358. We don't need 6 versions of the 110 in Short Mag calibers. We need to tell Marlin, Winchester and Savage what we want. Don't let some bean counter do it for us ! Like someone else said kick out the soap box. I'm ranting to much I guess, or maybe just too "old fashioned". Bye !!!

Dand · « **Reply #18 on:** January 10, 2003, 11:28:31 PM »

I know a young lady who took a Montana bison with a .356 - one shot at about 70 yards. It was a game farm hunt or something. The guide told her to aim for the ear tag - she did - she literally punched the tag and down came the critter. She's also taken a modest brown bear with a 270 - she practices before she hunts.

Enforcer · « **Reply #19 on:** February 25, 2003, 04:03:16 PM »

:grin: The 356win is a great round.I have one in a win M94AE-XTR and one in a Marlin M336ER.But what it ain't is no 358Win, 348win or 375Win.Heres why:

356Win 200gr 2460fps-2688fps,Winchester or Conley
348Win 200gr 2560fps-2909fpe,Winchester or Conley
358Win 200gr 2700fps-3236fps,Conley
375Win 200gr 2512fps-2801fpe,Accurate

356Win 220gr 2315fps-2617fpe,Accurate
348Win 220gr 2470fps-2979fpe,Conley
358Win 220gr 2500fps-3054fpe,Speer
358Win 225gr 2550fps-3248fpe,Conley
375Win 220gr 2372fps-2754fpe,Accurate
375Win 225gr 2300fps-2642fpe,Conley

I have over 30 lever actions.While i love my 356Win.I realize it ain't in the same league as some of the others.It always comes up a little short when compared to the big dogs in its class.And when i handload in my Savage M99a in 375Win.I can exceed COL(I'm at 2.66),pressure up to 60,000psi if needed,and 22in barrel,and spitzer bullets.My 356Win can't catch my 375Win.Even though the 375win holds less powder than the 356Win.In this case the rifle makes the cartridge(375Win). Thanks

Buckeye · « **Reply #20 on:** February 28, 2003, 04:35:09 PM »

HEY ENFORCER , I 've had a WIN.94 .356 for a while and hand loaded a few in necked up .308 cases and fed and cycled fine . have you ever tried .308 cases or .358 cases.?

Enforcer · « **Reply #21 on:** March 01, 2003, 05:32:23 AM »

Quote from: Buckeye

HEY ENFORCER , I 've had a WIN.94 .356 for a while and hand loaded a few in necked up .308 cases and fed and cycled fine . have you ever tried .308 cases or .358 cases.?

No i have not.I have a ton of brass for the 356Win,other wise i would.As I know quite a few people that have done it.

K_Conrad · « **Reply #22 on:** May 20, 2003, 12:17:23 PM »

Hello kind folk....
Im new here and this is my first post Y@Y!!!
I am planning on my first elk hunt this season in the High Uitah Mountains on the border of Ut and Wy.. and im in need of an "elk" rifle that will suit this one time hunt but also serve me in other aspects ...ok ok.. yes its an excuse to get another rifle!!
I have long loved lever rifles and have been a fan of medium to larger bore caliber's..sound pretty simple since there are many medium bore lever guns .... right??
Well... I have been hunting for about 20years now and have taken every large game animal with a .270 or an 06..here in UT you just cant go wrong with either. Part of the reason for my choice is simplicity ... easy acces to cheap rifles and likewise on the ammo... and part of the reason is I have succumbed to the fantasy that I might just need to be able to take that 500yrd shot some day....you know the one that all the mag's say you need a STW or an Ultra mag for??? Well... im a pretty damn good shot (practicing for that sniper like field performace) but Ive yet to take any game past 300yrds!
Some of the longest shots Ive taken werent at deer at all.. in fact the longest shot I taken in the field was on a jack rabbit; a little over 400yrds by way of pacing, with a 7mmMag.... and nothiing but fur! The best I can tell, the longest shot Ive had to take on a Utah Mule was a little over 200 .. and honestally I could have sneaked up on it a little more if need be... one Mule was taken at a paced 70yrds (WOW.. can I just say how much damage a 270 will do at 70yrds!!! there was meat and fur on brances opposite the poor deer) ... so... my delima is I WANT A Lever gun!!
I am hearing here storys of people here hunting elk with a 356Win... and I noticed atleast one of these fellows here are in Wy (very similar terratory!)... so .. would I be giving my self a serious handycap by selecting a Win94-.356?? In my practicle mind Im sure my shot will likely be between 200-300yrds... just guessing.. Ive never tryed to sneak up on a UT Elk... and everyone I know says "you want a 338"... well I dont want a 338.. I have no use for that much rifle.. and I doubt I will have many more oppertunitys to hunt elk here in UT (I will be moved somewhere back east by next season.. or so the plan goes). From ballistics programs I can see that the 356 dosent really pack a significant punch past 200\250yrds .. and honestally I have no reservations about sneaking up on my game.. thats hunting right??
So.. Im looking for some sort of confermation ...I could just go with one of my 06's and be quite contient... but then I miss an oppertunity to buy a new rifle, and takes away from the mystic of my first elk hunt... Ive even concidered one of the new model Win 1895's in 405 or 06 with a scout scope mounted ... is it difficult to mount a scope on the 94's?
Have I rattled on enough?? sorry .. dont mean to make my first post a pain in the a$$ but Im like a kid in a candy store now :-D
Hey, thanks guys.. for listening to me ramble .. and for any insight you might be able to offer...

Wildcat Crazy · « **Reply #23 on:** May 21, 2003, 04:37:22 AM »

According to information I have SAAMI MAX PRESSURE for the .358 Win. and the .356 Win. are both 52,000 CUP.
Dies are now marked .358 Win,/.356 Win.
WC

45LC-Man · « **Reply #24 on:** May 24, 2003, 01:18:47 AM »

I may be wrong but in my research the .356 was initially loaded to the same pressures as the .358 Win. Only in recent years has it been loaded down several thousand PSI's. I have a couple of the older manuals that have them listed the same for pressures. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying "go ahead and load 'em up boys". Just a historical note.

eroyd · « **Reply #25 on:** May 24, 2003, 03:13:05 PM »

I recently acquired a older BLR in 358. I see Brownings re-introducing them in that caliber and few others including 450 Marlin (Ouch!)

I topped it with a 1X4 Leupold and really like it. It's a nice compromise after getting beaten up by 45/70 hunting loads.in

35 cals have always had a loyal following. Mostly by people who know there stuff. Winchester 88's and Browning 358's and Remington 600s in 350 mag never sit around in store racks or gun shows that long. 348's don't even make it in the door.

Fact is, when we get over the magnum mania, the above type cartridges, as far as big game hunting go just make plain good sense.

- They have ample killing power within there range. Nice combination of mass and frontal diameter at decent velocities.

- They shoot flat enough for practical shooting distances.
(Most folks have no business shooting at game outside of 200yds.)

- The rifles they come in are just plain handy.

hans g./UpS · « **Reply #26 on:** May 25, 2003, 03:47:44 AM »

Just a reminder to you 356 Winchester shooters, I've got 2 factory boxes of Winchester ammo[200gr Power Point].I'll trade them for -other-ammo e.g.35-8-Win,etc.

Johm D M · « **Reply #27 on:** June 16, 2003, 10:36:14 AM »

Attn K. C. Conrad, Wyo. and the unitah are close but not the same country. When I moved from Id to Western Mt I redifined thick brush. The 356 is my brush gun but if you can see over 30 yards where you hunt your 30-06 or 270 will kill them just fine. I can hit 2700 fps with a 180 gr speer and would love to try this gun on antelope [3x9 burris] but the accuracy falls apart when it gets warm. I mainly shoot it with cast and 215 gr LY or a 260 gr custom at 2000 fps and it will kill a deer just fine and an elk if the heavy bullet is used. If you just wnt a new gun this is a great one for a lever but so is a 375 W, 444. or 45-70., my 2 cents.

Buckeye · « **Reply #28 on:** June 30, 2003, 01:28:48 PM »

Im sorry but I disagree with Graybeard !
The .356 operates at 52,000 cup the same as factory .358!

I use .358 brass thru my Win. 94 .356 and it is digested prefectly every time.
The 356win. can't keep up with the .358 for 2 reasons ,1) the bullet is seated deeper 2) it can't use pointed bullets.

Enforcer · « **Reply #29 on:** June 30, 2003, 03:38:55 PM »

Buckeye,all true and well said.They are indeed loaded to the exact same pressure.And as you said the 358win gets the nod in velocity.Not because it holds more powder,because it does not.But because the 356Win must be seated deeper to clear in AOL of 2.56 of the Marlin M336ER and Win M94AE-XTR.The 358win does not have to contend with that,as it is loaded to COL of 2.78 in its levers Savage M99,Browning BLR,Win M88.

Water measurements show the 356 and 358win to hold the exact same amount .The added weight of the 356Win case comes from the rim,not from a thicker case.Good Day