.35-30/30 or .33-30/30 Rounds in M-94?

[Advocate]

As a formerly incorrigible bolt action cultist, I have found the lever action board to be among the best on this forum and am developing a great interest in  a type of rifle that I formerly regarded as a pointless, if perhaps interesting,  relic of  the past and a new found respect for its fans whose contributions to this board provide so much enjoyable reading.  The knowledge, innovation and resourcefulness of lever action shooters  and particularly the .35 caliber lever gun shooters, is fascinating.

Now I seem to have the bug too.  

Browsing Cartridgres of the World , I learned that  the .35/30-30 (30-30 necked up to .35) is an old wildcat for M-94 Winchesters. (I"ve never heard of the 30-30 necked up to .33, but why not?  .33 Cal bullets are out there and it would  be a simple re-bore or rebarrel.)  

Does anyone have any experience with the 35/30-30?  I have read that the .35-30-30 approximates the factory loaded .35 Remington and thought it might be kind of cool to re-bore an M-94 to the larger .35 cal wildcat. I'd probably use an Ackley type shoulder on my 35/30-30 though.

Hawk Bullets makes some pretty decent flat point  bullets for the .33 and the .35 calibers and 30-30 brass is far cheaper and more available than .35 Remington cases.  

Another thread also discussed the 357 Bain & Davis, a .44 Remington Magnum necked down to .357. According to the loading manuals and other research on the issue, the .357 B&D also approximates the .35 Remington in factory guise.  You could convert a Marlin M-94 to .357 B&D and have the practical equivalent of the .35 Rem in a smaller, "cuter" package.  


There are a lot of .35 caliber fans on this board who seem to think that the .35 caliber is superior to the .30-30 as a deer and black bear round and I would enjoy hearing your reasponse to these 30-30 based .33 and .35 cal  cartridges.  Would also enjoy hearing why you think the .35 cal is superior to the 30-30 for deer, etc.  


While we'er at it, how about  necking the 30-30 up to take .348 bullets?  One possible objection to this would be the fact that available bullets are designed for the more powerful more capacious .348 WCF round where as the .33 and .35 cal bullets are more amenable to the modest velocities of the 30-30 size cases.

Also while we're at it, is there any point to necking the 30-30 up to larger than the .35 cal?

[John Traveler]

Hi, Advocate!

I was particularly interested in reading your post about the various cartridges you pondered for necking up the basic .30-30 case.  Some of them have been tried already, I'll bet!

As for the "WHY NOT" or practicality of making up some cartridges, chambering reamers, and converting existing rifles, I can offer some opinions:

1.  There is little to gain by making larger caliber versions of the .30-30 Winchester.  The case itself is pretty modest capacity, and not very strong compared to others with thicker walls and webs.  That translates to modest pressure limits and velocity for the rifle in question.

2.  The Winchester M94 and Marlin .336 actions are rear-locking designs, and this places severe limits on how much pressure they will take from reloaded ammunition.  Too, firing bottle-necked cartridges in those actions results in considerable case stretch and more attention to reloading them.  Case life in hot-loaded cartridges would be short.

3.  The .357/44 B&D were designed for use in revolvers and other handguns.  Yes, it's a relatively hot number, but for a handgun!

Now I would be the last to admit that wildcatting is not fun, but most shooters are a very practical, conservative bunch and not prone to "fashion changes" in shooting equipment.

I can count very few lever action wildcat rifle cartridges that made it to the commercial production stage.  Maybe because many shooter figure "good enough" is good enough for them?

[Dand]

I think my old NRA cast bullet handbook  (by C E Harris??) shows a 35/30-30 on the front cover.  I'd think it would be a great conversion. I'd be inclined to the 35 cal just for the huge variety of bullets.  I'm not so sure about the B&D - seems like a long time ago I read an article that wasn't very complimentary of that wild cat - maybe with modern powders its better.

[Advocate]

John Traveler: Browsing through loading manuals I found two creations called the .30 Herret and the .357 Herret.  These were 30-30's that were shortened with 30 degree shoulders for different loading density and for use in 10 and 14" contender barrels.  The users of these two creations, which were ballistically inferior to the 30-30 and  the old .35/30-30  raved about what thunderbolt killers on deer and other big game they were in contender pistols at distances out to 125 yards.

So, the .257 Herrett was just a shortened, "blown out" version of the old .35/30-30.   So it would seem that the reamers are already out there as are the loading dies. .357 Herrett loading dies could easily be used for the slightly longer .35-30-30.

Your points are all well taken.  You are right about the "modest" gains  achieved in necking up modest 30-30 cases.   In the opinion of many, however, modest .35 caliber bullets kiil  better than modest .30 caliber bullets.  I've never hunted with either, but it makes sense that the bigger bullet makes a bigger hole (and lets in more air and lets out more blood) than the smaller caliber round, at least according to the .35 caliber lever action hunters on this board.      

The .35/30-30 will never take the world by storm or be commercialized. Too many good commerical .35's (i.e. .358 WCF, 350 Rem, 35 Rem) are either dead or dying from the commercial point of view. Still they have  small but incorrigible fans whose loyaty is based (apparently) on in field experience that has indicated to them that the larger calibers kill differently and more decisively than the smaller caliber rounds.

The .35 Remington, the ballistic equivalent of the 35/30-30 according to "Cartridges of the World," is beloved by its small but  devoted following. There must be some reason the .35 Remington has survived as a chambering in the Marlin 336 and as a favorite of handgun hunters in Contender pistols.  Obviously there is a market for the performance produced by this caliber or it would have been dropped  by Marlin long ago.  That the necked up 35/30-30 is such a modest loading may actually be a point in its favor, considering the fate of  less "modest" and greatly more potent .35's such as the .358 Winchester and the .350 Remington Magnum that  have died and  almost passed from the scene while the more modest .35 Remington has lingered on.  The .358 and .350 are making something of a come back for very good reasons but they are clearly of a different performance level than the necked up 30-30 and the traditional lever action carbines using it.  

The 35/30-30  will not  break new ballistic ground, but rather  will allow existing 30-30 carbines to be converted to  the larger caliber and be able to use cheaper and more widely available 30-30 brass for  forming into .35 caliber.  As noted by Dand,  it will be able to utilze the enormous variety of .35 caliber bulllets available, as well.  

Last but not least, it will provide a source of relaxation and entertainment for  shooters who do not already have enough time on their hands or who simply wnat to try something different.   (Kind of like fishing lures designed to catch fishermen rather than fish?)  
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[w30wcf]

Advocate,

Glad to hear that you are catching the fever!   Leverguns are truly historic and just plain fun!  I have never worked with the .35/30-30, but about 15 years ago a distant friend of mine had a Remington 788 .30-30 rechambered for this round and had high praises for it. As I recall, he was getting 2,000 f.p.s. with heavy 260 grain cast bullets with very good accuracy. Of course pressure was probably in the 50,000 p.s.i. range which was ok in the 788.

I would see no reason that one could not easily obtain 2,000 f.p.s. in the .35/30-30 in a 20" barrel at 38,000 c.u.p. or less with a little slower powder than the load with 4198 shown in Cartridges of The World (25 grs. of 4198 - 1,925 f.p.s.)  since I get 1,900 f.p.s. in my .30-30 Carbine with a 200 gr. .30 caliber cast bullet.

I think an 8MM Ackley Improved .30-30 would be an interesting round.

With regards to case strength, I have .30-30 cases that have been fired 15+ times at 50,000+ p.s.i. in my Remington 788 .30-30 bolt gun (225 gr. cast bullet at 2,160 f.p.s.) and a 110 gr. Sierra H.P. at 3,000+ f.p.s. that are still going strong with nary a bit of a problem.  In addition, about 10 years ago a fellow wrote an interesting article in "Rifleman" about his .30-30 Varminter which was built on a Ruger No. 1 action with a 26" barrel.  He was pushing 125 gr. ballistic tip Noslers at a shade over 3,000 f.p.s.(!) using H335 powder in the standard chambering. A ballistics lab tested the pressure of his load at 52,500 p.s.i.   Of course, 30-30  rounds at these  pressures are best kept in bolt action or strong single shot rifles.


Advocate, just  a suggestion. If you buy a .30-30 levergun for conversion, you might just try shooting it first. You may just like it the way it is!

w30wcf

[Advocate]

30wcf: Enjoyed your response very much. You really seem to know your 30-30's.   You mention an 8mm/30-30 Ackley Improved.  Isn't that just a .32 Winchester Special with an Ackley shoulder?  Would think this has already been tried, but I don't specifically know.  

I appreciate your encouragement on the 35/30-30.  Seems as though it would be fun.  
Best

[Advocate]

w30wcf:  Taking a second look at your post.  How do you get 1900 fps from a 30-30 with a 200 grain cast  bullet?   How is thet accuracy?  What is the purpose of this load? Do you hunt with it?  Sounds intriguing.

[w30wcf]

Advocate,

Thank you for the kind words.

I originally got the idea of heavy cast bullets in the .30-30 back in 1981 from Frank Marshall who wrote a column called "Speaking Frankly" for the Cast Bullet Association.  He wrote of using 190 -210 gr. cast bullets in his .30-30 pushed by slow burning W760 or 4350 on deer. So loaded, he said his .30-30 would penetrate a whitetail from front to back or vice versa if that was the only shot that presented itself.

I don't hunt much anymore, but the idea of heavy bullets intrigued me for long range target shooting which I described a little bit in my response on your post regarding the .30-30 T.R. Commemorative.

I have 3 different .30 caliber molds that drop bullets weighing between 200 and 220 grains and I have found that Frank's use of the slow burning powders works very well with these heavy bullets.
 
H414 is the same powder as W760 and has a burning rate similar to 4350.
Hodgdon shows 37 grs. of H414 as maximum in the .30-30 with a 170 gr. bullet  giving a velocity of 2,259 f.p.s. @  37,400 c.u.p. in a 24" barrel.    

With a 200 gr. cast bullet, 34 grs. of H414 with a WLR primer clocks just over 1900 f.p.s. in a 20" barrel and  2, 030 f.p.s. in a 26" barrel.  If I do my part, accuracy with my tang sighted leverguns  is usually 2" or less @ 100 yards.  In my scope sighted 788 Remington, groups usually run  3/4" -1 1/4"  at the same distance.

I have found that the .30-30 loaded with these heavy bullets are just the ticket for the NRA 500 Meter Rams and "Homer", the 1,000 yard buffalo.
FUN, FUN, FUN!

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

Oops, forgot about the 8MM / .30-30 A.I.   I though this might would be an interesting conversion if you wanted something bigger than the .30 caliber. Yes, as you said, it would technically be a .32 W.S.A.I.  and no doubt this has been tried before but I have never seen any data on it.
The reason I thought of the 8MM vs the .33 you mentioned is that there are more bullets available for it that are constructed for the lower velocites of the 8MM Mauser.  Just a thought.

I think your idea of .35/.30-30 A.I. is pretty neat and would be a good conversion.  

To my point of  "If you buy a .30-30 levergun for conversion, you might just try shooting it first. You may just like it the way it is! ", a 170 gr. 30 caliber bullet  .30 caliber bullet has a 10%sectional density rating advantage of .256 as compared to the 200 gr. 35 caliber bullet's .223.
Ballistically speaking, bullet construction and impact velocities being similar, the bullet with the higher sectional density will give the superior penetration.

In looking through P.O. Ackley's book, I found a wildcat called ".35 Lever Power" designed specifically for use in '94 Winchesters and 336 Marlins. It used  .30-40 cases shortened to .30-30 length with the rims turned down.
The shoulder is blown like the Ackley Improved cartridges and the ballistics  show 200 gr. bullets in the 2,400 f.p.s. bracket!

w30wcf

[Majbg]

I'm also in the process of a rechambering/rebarreling idea with a marlin lever gun, but thats another story.  I've used and reloaded the 357/44 B&D in a TC Contender.  You can find reloading data in the TC manuel.  only goes up to 160 gns.  I worked up my loads to the max they listed, I think it was 24.0 of H110, and chronyed it at the published 2087 fps out of 10" bbl.  Its a hot little number, but I didn't like the recoil and got spoiled on 12" hunters (10" bbl with muzzlebrake - BIG difference).  If I could find a 12" hunter in 357 B&D, Id get another one.  Great round.  Paco wrote a couple articles on it as well, if you look in "sixgunner.com" for back issues titled, "One gone, and another one takes its place".  Talks specifically about it in a lever gun. Good luck.  bg

[Advocate]

w30wcf:   8mm\30-30---- You are right about low velocity 8mm bullets. The only problem I see is that most are spitzers which are unsuitable for use in tubular magazines.  Perhaps you were considering a SS or a bolt action.  By the way, some guy named M.L. McPherson, another lever action fan,  wrote a piece on some web site about the superiority of the .32 Win Special to the 30-30  and  presented some very compelling arguments.  Maybe you know of him?  

.35 Leverpower:  I remember reading about the "Leverpower" rounds in the mid-'60's in an article by Pete Brown in Sports Afield magazine. (My age is showing).  They were developed by a gunsmith in Phoenix AZ (where Brown and I both resided, coincidentally)  on the 30-40 Krag case for use in M-94 Winchesters and were available in 30 and 35 calibers as I recall.  I had completely forgotten about them and do not recall ever reading anything else about them until you mentioned your reference to P.O. Ackley's book.  Apparently they never achieved much popularity.

The same guy also developed a complicated  kind of Rube Goldberg scope mount for the top ejecting  M-94 that allowed a normal eye relief type scope to be mounted directly over the receiver.  It was rigged up so that when the lever was cycled, the scope pivoted to the left out of the way of the ejected cartridge casing (!), and then pivoted back over the receiver when the action was closed and a new round was chambered.  Never actually saw one nor did I ever see any other reference to it.  Seemed like a lot of work and he deserved credit for it, but, like his rifle calibers, it never achieved much popularity either... for obvious reasons.  

At the time, you could  buy a Marlin 336 for use with over the counter scopes and mounts.  Interestingly, I never heard of him converting the Marlin lever action for Lever power rounds but dont' see why it couldn't have been done. Seems much more sensible to me, but I guess he liked Winchesters or something.

Also at that time you could buy over the counter lever action .308's  in either the Winchester M-88 or the Savage M-99 and use over the  counter scope mounts and over the counter scopes on rifles that were ballistically superior and had box magazines that allowed the use of sptizer bullets in popular, widely distributed factory caliber for which you did not have to embark upon a handicrafts project to make casings.  
 
Depending on your perspective, the guy was either way behind the times, or way ahead of them, in light of the subsequent development of the .307 Winchester and the Angle Eject feature of the new, re-designed M-94's.

One more point, on the issue of penetration of the 200 grain bullets in .30 and .35 caliber. You correctly point out that the .30 cal. 200 grain bullet will have  greater sectional density and greater penetration, but isn't the effect  of the .35 cal bullet to achieve greater killing power by creating a larger wound channel?  I have never hunted with the .35 caliber, but those who have make that argument.

I  am intrigued by the idea of achieving full penetration of deer on going away shots with the 200 grain 30-30. If this is the type of shot one typically gets, it really adds a new dimension to  the 30-30.  But,  would not killing power be greatly diminished by the lack of expansion conventional  broadside shots in using this load?  Even as the load would be more effective under certain hunting conditions (i.e. going away shots) would it not be less effective on others (i.e. broadside shots)?

I look forward to hearing from you.  Best.

[w30wcf]

Advocate,

Yes I have heard of and did read his article on the .32 W.S.  which I felt was  interesting as well.  He did make a few incorrect observations though.
The .30W.C.F. was made from the .38-50 Ballard case of 1876 necked down, rather than the .32-40 he mentioned.  The .32-40 & .38-55 were longer versions of the .38-50.  Also, no .30 W.C.F., .30-30, or .32W.S. cases were semi balloon head cases. They have all been solid head. The primer in the .32 W.S. case that was illustrated is a W5 1/2, a "protected" primer.  The W was used to identify that the round was loaded with smokeless powder,  probably L&R Lightning.
 
One advantage the .30-30 has over the .32 W.S. is it's ability to shoot heavier bullets due to the faster 10"(Marlin) and 12" Twist (Winchester).  Early last year he wrote a several page article on the .30-30 for the Accurate Rifle publication and I see that it is now on the Sixgunner website.

Now that I think of it, the .356 Winchester would have been a close commercial version of the .35 Lever Power.

Interesting about the pivoting scope! That was a new one on me!

Actually, the 170 gr. .30 caliber bullet has a slightly higher s.d. than the 200 gr. .35 bullet.  Obviously a 200gr. .30 caliber bullet has significantly more.  Theoretically speaking, at similar striking velocities the .35 bullet should produce a slightly larger wound channel, but both would produce life extinguishing wounds and dead is dead, as they say.

With regards to cast bullet expansion, Frank made his bullets from 1/3 lead and 2/3 Linotype which gave some expansion and killed just as well as the 170 gr. factory bullets on broadside shots.   In an article entitled Wheelweights & Whitetails,  C.E.Harris used straight wheelweights & 4% tin and got good penetration and almost a classic mushroom.  The other option is to make the forward portion of the bullet from a tin/lead alloy and the back portion from a tougher alloy which is a pain but performs well, giving classic mushrooms, so the pictures I have seen show.

w30wcf

[Advocate]

w30wcf:  On the issue of expanding cast bullets, "Paco Kelly" wrote an on line piece about the .358 Winchester and described a procedure for achieving good expansion and penetration in 290 grain .358 caliber cast bullets.

He dropped them from the mold into cold water for purposes of initial hardening. Then, he set up the bullets on their bases in water  that came up  to the bullet's shoulder and applied a propane torch to the tip of the bullet that was above the water line.  When the bullet tip "changed color" he would withdraw the torch and allow it to cool.  This would soften the tip  which would "mushroom" upon impact, while allowing the still hard bullet shank to penetrate  and push the mushroomed bullet forward.  Have you ever tried this?  

I admire your detailed knowledge of the history of the 30 WCF cartridge and the proficiency and working knowledge you have obviously achieved with it.  I am very curious to know what caused you be be so interested in this cartridge and to devote so much effort and time to its mastery?

[w30wcf]

Advocate,

Thank you for the reminder.  PACO's technique that you described was written up by another experimenter in the Cast Bullet Journal back in the 1980's.  I have not tried it, but I do heat treat 200+ gr. w.w. alloy bullets if I am going to push them over 1,800 f.p.s..  I heat treat in a small toaster oven since it is a much more reliable method to get the   brinell hardness pretty consistant throughout the bullet.

With regards to the .30 W.C.F. /.30-30,  my dad owned a M94 Winchester in that chambering when I grew up and it had a mystical affect on me, you know, dad's big game rifle and all.   When I was old enough I started reading sportsmens publications and was surprised that it seemed like everyone looked down their nose at this venerable cartridge/firearm.  Well being one that roots for the underdog ...........

By 1968, I took up handloading and was determined to show my friends and anyone else that would listen, that the .30-30 was a very effective round for what it was designed for, and thensome!  My adventures in handloading for this classic cartridge are too detailed to go into here, but, let me say that over the years, I was able to surprise many people, and myself, with what the old  .30-30 could do.  Several of my friends are lever action converts today because they learned that they are just so darn fun to shoot!  

In 1994, several publications put together the history of the Model 1894 Winchester but not much on the cartridge itself. As 1995 approached,  I felt that the historical journey of Winchester's most famous cartridge needed to be told.

So,  began a quest for some historic information, which I soon found wasn't going to be as easy as I thought.  I eventually was able to find and attend a cartridge collectors show and began asking questions, got some interesting information and additional references about  other cartridge collectors to contact, which I did.  As with any research project, new information always leads to more questions! And on and on.  

I had the good fortune to eventually find a cartridge collector in Canada who specializes in collecting .30 W.C.F. / .30-30 cartridges and currently has over 700 variations!  Different bullets, headstamps, etc. I have been able to gather lots of info from him.  

I was able to acquire copies of a some  old Winchester and Marlin catalogs (1895,1897,1899,1905,1906, 1916, 1923)  which gave me some  additional insight.  I then found a gentleman that had a lot of the old Winchester ballistic lab records, who has been very helpful as well.

Through the help of several cartridge collectors, I have been able to locate numerous rounds of old ammunition and cartridge boxes. I think the original "Short Range" rounds were pretty interesting and put some information about them earlier on this forum.

Well it's been almost 10 years and I have been slowly pulling this all together into a .30-30 Journal so to speak and name it something like -  Historic .30-30 W.C.F........100+ years Of  History.  

As a quick overview,  I have found evidence of factory loads using the following bullets: 55J, 85J, 100L, 100J, 110J, 114L, 114J, 117L, 117J, 125L, 125J, 150J, 151J, 160J, 165J, 170L, 170J & 180J.     L-lead  J-jacketed

It is a very diversified cartridge having been  loaded with these numerous bullet weights and types, with velocities ranging from 1,000 f.p.s.( lead bullet short range) to 2,720 f.p.s.(110 gr.), making the .30-30  adaptable to a wide variety of uses over the years and just plain fun to shoot!

Thank you for asking,

w30wcf