Author Topic: h4198 in the 7-30 waters (Read 2012 times)

handcanon · « **on:** March 25, 2003, 04:58:55 AM »

Why don't I see anybody using h4198 in the 7-30 waters. with a 120gr bullet in a 14" contender. I have found it to be very accurate and flat shooting with groops under .5" at 100 yards. And I'm getting a very good burn with no leftovers in the barrel.

coltfan · « **Reply #1 on:** March 25, 2003, 10:31:00 AM »

I've only been loading for a short while for the 7-30, but I started out with Winchester 748 simply because it is a ball powder, and I like the charge to charge consistancy with a ball powder. I'll probably experiment with H322 next for that same reason. Is the 4198 ball, flake or stick powder?

handcanon · « **Reply #2 on:** March 25, 2003, 10:45:39 AM »

I think it is stick, but I'm sure someone will tell us.

Duffy · « **Reply #3 on:** March 25, 2003, 03:36:43 PM »

You Don't Know?

?

handcanon · « **Reply #4 on:** March 25, 2003, 03:56:49 PM »

yea I know but there are alot of "smart" people around here.

jhalcott · « **Reply #5 on:** March 25, 2003, 03:59:17 PM »

How are you getting these groups with this 4198 and NOT know if it is stick or WHAT :eek:

I would be interested in hearing where you got your load data as all I found did NOT include this powder
Safe reloading is a responsibility of every one who reloads.

handcanon · « **Reply #6 on:** March 25, 2003, 04:15:53 PM »

well you see I just throwed in a bunch of the stuff I had lay'n around and see'ed if it work'ed or not
No really I got great accuracy out of my 30-30 14" with h4198 so I talked to alot of reloaders and came up with the load and just so you know, jhalcott, it took me a long time to work up the load .01gr at a time. And yes safety is every ones responsibility you will note that I gave no load out to anyone I just ask if anyone had tried it

T/C nimrod · « **Reply #7 on:** March 26, 2003, 01:39:29 AM »

handcannon - to your defense - I believe the reason you don't hear about 4198 being used is (as stated above) it's not a listed powder for the Waters caliber. IMR 4895 and 4064 will (and does) produce equal to or better then the .5" group sizes you are seeing, and are both listed powders for the 7-30. Now, this is not to say that other powder/bullet combinations will not do the same, and for those who experiment outside listed powders, there are even more combinations available. One must know burn characteristics and how they relate to each caliber characteristics to safely put together any combinations outside of manufacture's listings.

I don't feel comfortable doing this, however I do appreciate what others such as yourself come-up with.

handcanon · « **Reply #8 on:** March 26, 2003, 05:59:05 AM »

thanks for the defense T/C nimrod what got me looking at h4198 was it is one of the faster powder for this size case and I'm trying to get a good burn in my 14" to keep from wasting any powder, in the way of a big fireball. With H4198 I get a good clean burn and great bullet stablation with a 120gr. bullet, at 300 yards I'm getting groops anywhere from 2.78" to 4.25" that is off a rest, but I think its not bad for a T/C made barrel.

T/C nimrod · « **Reply #9 on:** March 26, 2003, 07:00:10 AM »

Well, I will share a recent change I made with my 14" 7-30 waters. I was loading IMR4895 over a 120 grain Sierra spitzer, great performance at the range - terrible on game. Lesson #1: bullet performance is closely related to velocity. So, back to the drawing board I went. I picked the Hornady 120 grain SSPB (#12811 which is now th #12810 V max)and IMR 4064. I randomly picked 34.7 grains because it was the charge closest to the 34.9 grains I was using w/IMR 4895. Loaded 7 shells just to get an idea of accuracy and holy cow......this combo shoots tighter and more consistantly out to 300 yards then the Sierra/4895 ever did.

How does this apply to you? I dry swab my barrel between every shot during load development and that charge of IMR 4064 gave a very,very little amount of powder residue. The patches looked as if they had been merely dropped at the range and picked - up. I've since loaded a ramp of this powder for more serious testing, but have not gotten a chance to get to the range. (Seems the good weather also lenghtens the honey-do list)

I'm using Federal match primers and setting the bullets right at the lands. I'm not sure if this oal(col) is conducive with complete combustion or not.

Now, these are listed loads and work in my firearm. Please, if anyone loads from this post, do so using proper loading procedures - start low and work up.

handcanon · « **Reply #10 on:** March 26, 2003, 07:09:50 AM »

T/C nimrod
Thanks i will try this when I can get back and shoot, I will try dry swabing me barrel between every shot I would like to see how much residue I'm getting but I dont think it will be much.
BTW: this is with the 120gr sierra spitzer.

T/C nimrod · « **Reply #11 on:** March 26, 2003, 07:24:51 AM »

I really liked the Spitzers until I picked up the Hornady's. It seems as if the Hornady's are also more consistant in weight out of the box. I would probably set aside 20-30 Sierras because they didn't stay within +/- .2 grns. from the same lot.

If you are going to use these bullets for deer sized game, please learn from my mistake. I had the opportunity to harvest two(2) whitetails in Pa. last year. One was shot at 62 yards the other somewhere around 12 feet. Bullet performance on both deer was nonexistant. Same size entrance hole as exit hole - zero expansion. On paper these bullets shoot great, but they are designed for rifle velocities not handgun velocities. Maybe you'll have different results, let us know.

Just as a side note - I used this caliber on groundhogs during load development, and I should have realized then that the bullets were not doing what they were supposed to do. I "dispatched" many 'hogs, but always had a problem finding wound channels.....there were none, bullets never expanded. You'd think I'd take a clue!

handcanon · « **Reply #12 on:** March 26, 2003, 07:39:21 AM »

T/C nimrod
thanks I will get a box of Hornady's 120 grain SSPB this weekend. And see what they do. In wet news paper sierras did great, I have 2 of the recoverd lead if you would like to see. But I will get me a box of the Hornady's. Thanks

T/C nimrod · « **Reply #13 on:** March 26, 2003, 09:32:49 AM »

If it looks like the one I have, it's an almost perfect mushroom, and it lost about 10 - 15 grains. (mine lost 12.2 grains) Another bullet that performed well for me was Nosler's 140 grain ballistic tip #39587; with one exception - the wet phonebook test. That bullet lost 22.5 grains and therefore was never loaded outside of testing. I haven't shot the Hornady's into phone books (wet) yet - that will happen this summer.

SD Handgunner · « **Reply #14 on:** March 26, 2003, 05:36:53 PM »

Interesting topic. I too had thought of using 4198 when I had my 10" 7-30 Waters Barrel just because of the shorter barrel. I contacted both IMR Powder Company and Hodgdon Powder Company inquiring about this option, and both told me that they had never done any testing with this powder, so they could not recommend it's use.

However when I was testing my .243 Savage Striker I tired of the horrendous muzzle flash with certain powders and tried both IMR & H - 4198. I was very pleasantly surprised by it's performance (bot Velocity and Accuracy) and after the fact really wished I had given it a try in the 10" 7-30 Waters.

Good topic.

Larry

handcanon · « **Reply #15 on:** March 27, 2003, 03:55:41 AM »

T/C nimrod
no mine look like they came all apart just fragments.

SD Handgunner
It just looked like the right powder for the shorter barrel, its not like I tried to used H110 in it, like some people have acted like I did.

T/C nimrod · « **Reply #16 on:** March 27, 2003, 04:23:12 AM »

Now there's a box of worms to talk about - bullet performance. You said the Sierra's worked great in wet newspaper..."no mine look like they came all apart just fragments. " So, you are looking for fragmentation.

I look for weight retention. I guess the reasoning behind my thought is the loss of weight means less penetration. From your view-point, (and my varmit loads), the more fragmentation - the more interior damage w/little to no (none) exit. Wonder what others think about this?

handcanon · « **Reply #17 on:** March 27, 2003, 04:40:07 AM »

I like the fragmentation it gives more damage inside and like you said not exit hole so all the force in delivered to the animal and thus a clean kill, to my years of shooting deer, and large varmints in Mississippi, that is what I like. Now if you want to track your kills the exit hole is great, that way more of a blood trail. But that is why they make more that one kind of bullets..

SD Handgunner · « **Reply #18 on:** March 27, 2003, 05:45:28 AM »

T/C Nimrod & Handcannon

I have been Hunting Whitetails with Long Range Handguns since the early '80's. In that time I have aquired some great memories, and I like to think I have learned a thing or two (sometimes can sort of be blockheaded so it takes some effort to convince me at times) in the meantime.

At any rate on the topic of bullet performance there are indeed two schools of thought. Like has been stated one is that the bullet should penetrate the animal completely at all costs, while the other is that the more bullet upset and the quicker that bullet upset occurrs the more humane the kill.

I believe the truth lies somewhere in between these to schools of thought. However in the rifle-type cartridges I have hunted with in Handguns, bullet expansion has become the largest concern. I have had the misfortune of having to track several Whitetails through the years due to lack of Expansion, but have never had to track a Whitetail because the bullet didn't Penetrate.

I do not have all the answers, but do have some ideas as to what I believe works and what does not work. Given muzzle velocities of 2400 FPS or more I have had excellent results with Nosler Ballistic Tips. In the case of the 7mm's, I had even better success using the old Nosler Solid Base Spitzer Boat Tails (wish I would have purchased all I could before they were discontinued). In the 6mm's I have had the best results with the 80gr. Speer Spitzer Flat Base, but am fixin to try some 80gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips in my 6mm T/CU this coming fall. Heck I even had respectable bullet performance with a 55gr. Hornady SX driven out of a Super 14 .223 Remington Contender at a muzzle velocity of 2800 FPS, a perfect mushroom, and the Whitetail never moved after the shot.

No I have never tested these bullets in an artificial testing medium, so I do not have any opinion as to how they would perform in this instance.

There are a lot of possibilities out there for the proper bullet to use, and the bullet manufacturers are given us even better bullets all the time.

Again, good topic, and I particularly enjoy seeing how others experience relates to my own.

Larry

handcanon · « **Reply #19 on:** March 27, 2003, 06:05:41 AM »

SD Handgunner
Thanks for the info, I've been hunting deer since the late 60's and in a perfect world I would like to have a lot of expansion and penetration both, that is why I use a 14 45-70 SSK contender with 300gr. HP to hunt with, the 7-30 is something I use to hunt coyotes and to target shoot with. Next year I may try it on whitetails; I didnt get the 7-30 till late in the deer season. I also just got a 7mm TCU 10 on its way for my 12 year old to hunt with and I will stay with 120 bullets for it but I am going to try the Hornady 120 grain SSPB that T/C nimrod said worked for him, in both the 7TCU and the 7-30 waters.

SD Handgunner · « **Reply #20 on:** March 27, 2003, 10:58:39 AM »

Handcannon

Sounds like you are going to have all of your bases covered, and then some. You are a brave man. I am not sure I would like shooting a Super 14 .45-70, but then again I have never tried one either. I have heard a lot of good things about the 120gr. Hornady T/C Nimrod speaks of, and if I currently had a 7mm Handgun would indeed give them a try.

Larry

handcanon · « **Reply #21 on:** March 27, 2003, 02:39:05 PM »

SD Handgunner
I'm not that brave I think its I'm not quite right in the head. But I have never had to track a deer I hit with that badboy. :wink:

PJ · « **Reply #22 on:** March 29, 2003, 05:53:59 PM »

IMR4064 was the best powder, I tested in my 7x30 with 35grs for the 120grNBT under 1/2' groups at 150yrds was no big deal :-)

handcanon · « **Reply #23 on:** March 30, 2003, 04:18:13 AM »

PJ
Isn't IMR4064 a bit slow for a 14" barrel, dose it all burn in that leanth? I'm not saing you are rong I'm just asking. I would just like to know. Thanks

OLDMAN · « **Reply #24 on:** March 30, 2003, 07:33:16 AM »

I am the lucky owner of PJ's 7x30 waters. PJ told me to use IMR 4064 and he was right. It burns every bit of powder. I shoot 50 or 60 rounds and the barrels still shines with no residue what so ever

handcanon · « **Reply #25 on:** March 30, 2003, 08:24:31 AM »

OLDMAN
Cool I will have to try it. I'm always ready to try something new.
Thanks