Graybeard Outdoors (GBO Reloaded)
Politics, the News & So Much More => Truth, Lies and Conspiracy Theories => Topic started by: Matt on October 16, 2006, 05:11:19 AM
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It is my belief that on September 11, 2001 one of the largest government cover-ups took place in America. After having read the Official 911 report and the FEMA report and now the NIST report I am left with more questions than I had before reading them. Before I read them I simply wondered what had happen and why did 3 steel skyscrapers collapse due to fire for the first time ever. After reading them I now wonder the same thing but I also wonder why several people are not in jail and why our government is covering it up.
If you have not read these reports I recommend you do so for yourself. If you have I am sure you are like me and wondering what. It is now my belief that the official story is what I would have expected to hear from conspiracy nuts. To think that a fire that is known to have only reached temperatures of around 1200degrees Fahrenheit could have melted steel beams some of which was 4 inches thick and then turned this into a pool of molten iron that stayed in this molten form for weeks. How is it even possible when steel does not melt until temps of over 2700 degrees? The FEMA report even states that the current hypothesis only has a every low probability. But yet they refuse to investigate any other hypothesis and have closed the investigation.
Folks I am not going to go into a lot of details in this post saying what I think happen as I have found that when I do I am called every name in the book and told how unpatriotic I am or how paranoid and even crazy I must be. I can only say that from an educated prospective very little of the 3 official reports have any merit.
I have also now spent hundreds of hours investigating this on my own and in the course have found many good videos of the collapse of all 3 buildings along with interviews of eye witnesses. Now I am not going to say that I agree with everything the so called conspiracy nuts are saying but there is much more merit and evidence to point to a cover up than there is for the official story.
I would invite you to watch the videos I have linked here and see for yourself. Some of these videos are long and if you watch all of them it may take a day or two. But they are all worth watching. Now I am not trying to argue or really even debate the theory or theories but will with anyone who has read the reports and watched the videos I post. If you feel that watching these videos it a waste of your time and therefore don’t want to watch them, that is fine but DO NOT reply to this post as you are a waste of my time.
I will only debate with educated, informed and intelligent people. I will not enter into a name calling flame war and I will ban your ass from GBO if you try to start one. You have been warned and will not be warned again. I am currently setting up several websites dedicated to this topic and the events that led up to 911 and the events after 911 in which anyone will be welcome to speak their peace and debate the topic till the end of time or we find out the truth.
If you watch the videos and read the reports and yet still think that me and 42% of America is wrong then you better be ready to explain many questions with scientific fact and evidence. All 3 official reports dare not say what caused the collapses with any degree of certainty so do not try and use them as your evidence.
Folks call me paranoid if you like but facts are facts and we are not being told truth.
Video – 911 mysteries: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003&q=911&hl=en
Video – 911 eyewitness: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3498980438587461603&q=911&hl=en
Video – The Truth & Lies about 911: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8797525979024486145&q=911&hl=en
Official 911 commission report: http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/index.html
Official NIST report: http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/wtc_briefing_april0505.htm
FEMA report: http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/official/fema.html
Take a look, read and watch for yourself then decide which side you want to stand on the issue.
Matt
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TM7, I say this in all sincerity. You have mentioned this government's "coincidental theory" several times. I am ignorant of this theory and was wondering if you could point me to an official site that lays out that theory. I am honestly interested in reading it.
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OK, TM7 could you lay out some of these "coincidences" for me as I do not follow any of the conspiracy sites. I would however like to know what you and the conspiracists are referring to. At least then I could possibly offer some arguments as to the coincidences.
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If you will have a look at the videos I have posted and read some of the reports you will see what it is I am referring to.
As TM7 said there are levels to the conspiracy. But there are several varying theories on what happen and why. I will give you a few of the things that the government have said that must be looked at and questioned for what reason they said them.
1) The government says in the 911 Commission report that the towers where hollowed out tubes that allowed the fire to spread quickly floor to floor. It also states that there was not a 47 column 4” thick steel beam core.
In fact the towers were each 3 separate skyscrapers staked on top of each other and each had a 47 column core that was the main support for the structure but also there was 240 columns that made up the outside of the building. It was referred to as a window screen type construction on the outside of the tower by one of the architects who designed it. And just as a pencil in the window screen does very little to the overall structure of the screen. The planes would not have caused enough damage to bring the building down. This same architect stated that the building could have sustained several crashes in each building. This is because the buildings were designed explicitly to sustain a fully loaded 707 crashing into them.
Another fact about the towers is that the amount of movement in the south tower when it was hit was no more than what the buildings move in high winds. So we have already caught the government in a lie and can reasonable be sure that structurally the building was able to take the crash and force of the impact.
2) The Official report states that fire though was not hot enough to melt the steel because it was sporadic and this in theory was what cause the buildings to collapse. The theory says that because the fire was spread out it cause an uneven heating of the beams which caused them to sag and “pull away” from the inner and outer cores. And this caused one floor after another to collapse bringing down the structure.
Now if you ask average person who buys the governments version about the collapse they will refer to it as a pancake collapse. In fact the report states it was not a pancake collapse. Also here they acknowledge an inner core but later deny its existence. But one of the things that should raise the most questions is the fact that the reports state that the current hypothesis has a low probability. But yet they close the case and call it final. what in the world... how is that final if you say your theory is not the most likely chain of events.
Also let’s mention that only 200 pieces of the debris was saved for closer investigation. Also did you know that the debris was for the most part all in 30’ sections? This made clean up much faster and easier to ship the debris to Asia as it was very quickly during clean up. Also lets remember that the Official commission says that the steel weakened and sagged but yet in the data that UL presented for the NIST report stated that the steel passed a test were it was unprotected (no fire proofing) and exposed to temperatures of 2k degrees for 6 hours and showed no sign of weakening. So now here we have UL and NIST saying that the steel could have withstood the mere 1200 degree temp that is known to have been present, but yet the 911 Commission bases its low probability hypothesis solely on it not being able to withstand the temp.
And lets not over look that also UL states based on evidence from the steel studied around the crash location it was only exposed to temps near 500 degrees. This was based on the paint on the steel and tests to see at what temps exposed and protect it burns. But in spite of the relatively small amount of fire and temps of only 1200 degrees max we have molten steel at the base of all three builds for weeks after. And let’s not forget that almost 50% of Americans do not even know that there were three buildings that fell and it takes 2700 plus degree temps to melt steel.
Ok now let’s look at another level of the conspiracy. The last was the level stating that the buildings did not fall due to fire. Here we have one of the “who did it” conspiracies. Now Larry Silverstein acquired a 99 year lease on the WTC complex in I think it was May of 01. In his lease he negotiated the right to rebuild in the event of a disaster. Throughout the summer of 01 Silverstein reworked the insurance policies on the complex to ensure it was covered for terrorist attacks for the sum of 3.5 billion dollars. Just a few weeks after he acquired the property strange construction begin. Also let’s note that the company who provided security to the WTC complex was Securecom which was chaired by GW Bush’s cousin. And also from 1996 to 2000 by GW’s little brother Marvin. Now let’s skip ahead to just a few weeks prior to 911 when more strange construction began and many evacuations were conducted. The weekend before 911 the WTC saw a complete power down which was unprecedented at the time. Also thousands of rolls of cable were being brought in said to have been internet cable. Not to mention the fact 5 days before 911 the threat level was lowered and bomb sniffing dogs removed.
Now let’s look at WTC7. This building housed headquarters for: CIA, FBI, IRS, SEC to name a few along with many others to include banks and large insurance companies. Also Lets look at what went away in WTC7 on 911. All records and files on the WorldCom and Enron investigations. And the 60 billion dollar California Power scandal. Not forgoing the fact that the WTC complex was seeing lower rental of the offices and the fact that it was under order to clean up all the asbestos from the complex estimated at a cost of $1 billion. Which no insurance company would cover.
Now lets look back at Silverstein, In an interview that he gave PBS he states that he got a call from the fire chief stating that “they did not know if they could control the fire in building 7” so he told them “due to the great loss of life maybe we should just pull it; so they made the decision to pull it and they watched the building fall.” Now “pull” is a term used by demolition experts to refer to a controlled demolition. This very term is also on video being used by one of the clean up engineers when he tells someone he his talking to “they are getting ready to pull number 6” Silverstein later said he was referring to pulling the fire fighters but yet FEMA and the NYFD both say that all firefighters were ordered out of the building at 11:30am on 911 so at 5:20pm there was not any firefighters in Building 7. And thus with these facts we can see how the “how” conspiracy level comes about which is said to have been a controlled demolition which I happen to agree with. Oh and don’t forget that Silverstein sued his insurance company claiming that the double high jacking represented 2 acts of terror and therefore was awarded 7 billion dollars as a result, nice return on the 15 million he invested don’t you think.
There is so much more to this and you should really watch the videos and read the reports if you truly are sincere about wanting to know. The only way you will ever know is to investigate it for yourself as I have. Prior to me getting curious and doing my own investigating I thought all of the 911 controversy was a load of BS but now I know the only BS is what we are being told by the government.
Matt
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But you know the one thing that I did not point out that to me is the most disturbing part of the whole thing and that is the value that the current administration places on American life.
Here we have a disaster of unprecedented magnitude that killed more than 3k US citizens and yet our government is satisfied with accepting a theory that by its own conspirator’s admission is not really probable. Where are the answers for the families that lost love ones on that day? Families ripped apart and yet the government pushes it under a rug and blows it off. And the media plays right along doing all it can to silence those who try to have a voice. And yet more than 50% of America seems to care less. what in the world...
People it could have very easily been your town according to the government and yet you don’t want answers and don’t questions irregularities rather shun and flame those who point them out to you...
Well I plan to scream at the top of my lungs until I get truthful answers to my questions.
Matt
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TM7 you watch the Bush speach? What kind does it take to stand there and lie like that?
You know he like to reference 911 but yet not really talk about it... funny how that works...
And to say he signed that bill on behalf of those who died on 911... :o :'( >:(
Matt
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Sorry fellas, but I simply don't have the time or inclination to spend days and days reviewing every crackpot conspiracy website and video out there (did you know that Lincoln had a secretary named Kennedy and Kennedy had a secretary named Lincoln). If you take things out of context, list them in a sinister fashion and describe them in argumentative terms (i.e. "strange construction") you can make Christmas look like a conspiracy. I for one do not see the Dem's or the media giving Bush a pass on this, if it were true. As much as they despise him, if there were a shred of truth to this conspiracy theory, they would be all over him. Well of course, unless they fear it would destroy their characature of Bush as a bumbling idiot. My god, if this were true, they would have to admit that Bush makes Goldfinger and Dr. No look like kindergarten students.
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Sorry fellas, but I simply don't have the time or inclination to spend days and days reviewing every crackpot conspiracy website and video out there (did you know that Lincoln had a secretary named Kennedy and Kennedy had a secretary named Lincoln). If you take things out of context, list them in a sinister fashion and describe them in argumentative terms (i.e. "strange construction") you can make Christmas look like a conspiracy. I for one do not see the Dem's or the media giving Bush a pass on this, if it were true. As much as they despise him, if there were a shred of truth to this conspiracy theory, they would be all over him. Well of course, unless they fear it would destroy their characature of Bush as a bumbling idiot. My god, if this were true, they would have to admit that Bush makes Goldfinger and Dr. No look like kindergarten students.
Ok then from that post I do not expect to see you add any other comments to this thread period. If you have no desire to learn the truth then you have business participating in this thread. By your own admission you must be here only to cause trouble and this is not acceptable so... Have a nice day and enjoy the many other GBO forums that you do have a desire for...
OK, TM7 could you lay out some of these "coincidences" for me as I do not follow any of the conspiracy sites. I would however like to know what you and the conspiracists are referring to. At least then I could possibly offer some arguments as to the coincidences.
Was this post simply an attempt at a bait and hook...hmmm yeah run along and leave this to us conspiracy nuts ok... thanks...
Matt
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OK, TM7 could you lay out some of these "coincidences" for me as I do not follow any of the conspiracy sites. I would however like to know what you and the conspiracists are referring to. At least then I could possibly offer some arguments as to the coincidences.
Was this post simply an attempt at a bait and hook...hmmm yeah run along and leave this to us conspiracy nuts ok... thanks...
Matt
No, I in all sincerity was asking for a list of some sort regarding the "coincidences" so that I could consider them without having to spend an inordinate amount of time reviewing the conspiracy websites. Additionally, I am always interested in discovering the "truth" about things, but if I am going to invest alot of time in something, I need something concrete to convince me it is worthwhile. By the way, I did read the official NIST report you listed above, and did not see anything there that would make me want to go to the video sites. Again, I just wonder if the truth is so apparent, why is Bush getting a pass from the media, when he is so hated by them? This last item is not rhetorical, I really would like an answer, and I would hope that I will not be banned or vilified for attempting to discuss this in a civil manner, even though I have not visited all the conspiracy sites.
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Casull first to your argument about having to visit "all the sites" you simple need to visit 3 to get a good understanding of our claims. And these are already posted for you. You say you want the truth in one breath and then in another say you dont want to have to look for it. Well guy I am here to tell you in the real world the truth is not given it is found. You ask about the media and them letting him get away with it but yet in the video you can see for your self they in fact help him get away with it. Not made up... plain as day on CNN and MSNBC and FOX. But you consider it a waste of your time to do your own due diligence? hmm I take it you do not invest in the stock market. If you want the answers you have to make the effort to find them. If you want to live in a world that is made up for you all you need to do is glue yourself to the news.
You said you read the NIST report then you should see the problems:
NIST's Theory
Remaining strictly within the confines of the officially prescribed theory, NIST crafts an explanation for the "initiation of the collapse of each Tower" that avoids faulting the Towers' construction: The aircraft impacts dislodged insulation from the steel, and the exposed steel succumbed to the fires. Sagging trusses pulled in portions of the perimeter walls, causing a rapid spread of "column instability" in perimeter columns, which in turned strained the fire-weakened core columns. The "tremendous energy" of the floors above the collapse zone led to "global collapse."
Challenges
In this critique I challenge NIST's explanation on two levels:
Its theory about the effects of crash and fire damage is deeply flawed.
Its presumption that "collapse initiation" will automatically lead to "global collapse" is unfounded.
Whereas the Report attempts to pre-empt challenges of the first type with the voluminous detail of its observations and models, it does not even address challenges of the second type. Yet it must have been aware of such challenges. NIST's lead investigator Shyam Sunder is extensively quoted in the Popular Mechanics article attacking "conspiracy theories." Respected theologian David Ray Griffin detailed evidence of controlled demolition in an April 18, 2005 address to the University of Wisconsin at Madison, which was aired twice on C-SPAN2's BookTV. Griffin's remarks included:
The buildings collapsed straight down, and at virtually free-fall speed, as in controlled demolitions, and then the rubble smoldered for months.
Many people in the buildings said that they heard or felt explosions.
Virtually all the concrete of these enormous structures was pulverized into very fine dust.
Much of this dust, along with pieces of steel and aluminum, was blown out horizontally several hundred feet.
Most of the steel beams and columns came down in sections about 30 feet long, conveniently ready to be loaded on trucks.
By truncating its investigation at "collapse initiation" NIST avoids having to consider and disclose the subsequent evidence of controlled demolition
So do you really want to know the truth or are you just fooling yourself?
and btw debate if you want but have questions and answers as that is a debate.
Matt
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Have a look at these pictures
impact to south tower
(https://www.gboreloaded.com/mhp/images/VidPro/wtc2impact1.jpg)
(https://www.gboreloaded.com/mhp/images/VidPro/wtc2impact2.jpg)
(https://www.gboreloaded.com/mhp/images/VidPro/wtc2impact3.jpg)
(https://www.gboreloaded.com/mhp/images/VidPro/wtc2impact4.jpg)
(https://www.gboreloaded.com/mhp/images/VidPro/wtc2impact5.jpg)
Now look at the progression of the explosions it is very clear that there are 2 separate explosions taking place here. One the fuel from the plane which is a large fireball and two and much smaller controlled explosion a few floors down from the first which happens to be the upper sky lobby. Right there in just 5 photos you can see that in fact there is a very good chance that there were explosives in the wtc south tower. And therefore should be given serious examination and the theory of such accepted as valid or at least the same low probability consideration that the fire theory got. But it has not and has been ignored all together.
Matt
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very well said TM7....
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TM7, let me see now. I believe you have chastised others for questioning the patriotism of certain individuals or groups who have seen fit to badmouth our commander in chief both here and abroad, as well as refer to certain of our soldiers as murderers and thugs, without waiting for an investigation, let alone a trial, all this during a time of war. However, you question my patriotism for not spending my days looking at conspiracy web sites and videos. I don't take these matters lightly, but I just haven't seen anything in your arguments that can't be explained by any number of other possible explanations. For example, you state
....the statisical probabilty of these three steel frame bldgs collapsing catastrophically in one day is nil
Well I imagine that prior to 9/11, the statistical probability of two commercial airliners striking both towers in the same day was nil (since it had never happened before). Next, ....the supreme commander of NORAD stepped out that day and handed command over to a junior officer
Without knowing how often this normally occurs, the fact that it happened that day is meaningless (maybe it occurs frequently). Further, ....the short selling of stock the day before..this is traceble btw
Stocks are sold short every day the markets are open (this is normal business). Next, ....the fact that the 'airplane' hitting the pentagon was lined up with the executive offices but the crack arab pilot did a 270 degree [the gov says 330 degree!] barrel roll to swoop down on the recently fortified pentagon section which is said to be adjacent to the auditing offices.
I have read you argue on other threads that a commercial aircraft would have a very hard time flying that close to the ground (ground effect or some such). Maybe the "crack arab pilot" did not purposely execute the barrel roll in order to "swoop down on the recently fortified pentagon section", but rather encountered this ground effect and lost control, thus missing his intended target. I'm not saying this happened, but its just as plausible. I could sit here, and without too much imagination come up with counter points to pretty much all of the "coincidences" I have seen listed. However, I am not going to do so and then proclaim my theories to be the "Truth". I do tend to operate under the old adage that the simplist explanation is usually the correct one. In the interest of peace and harmony, I will, while you and Matt pat each other on the back, look at one of the videos and if I see anything that convinces me that it is more likely than not true (and not just someone's conjectures or theories) I will delve further. I hope that this action will return me to my status as a true patriot.
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Whoa there, TM7. I, in no way accused you of referring to our military in a bad light.
But where have I chastised or referred to our military in the bad light you mentioned.?
Please re-read my post. What I said was that you have chastised others for questioning the patriotism of those who have cast our military in a bad light, such as John Murtha, John Kerry, Dick Durbin, etc. I wrote my piece without any personal attack on you or the name calling that you feel obliged to engage in (such as referring to me as the "last useless obfuscator" or someone with an "egocentric view of the world"). Trust me, I do not believe that the world revolves around me. I believe that you did in fact question my patriotism, when you said Casull,,, I listed enough coincidences that any patriot would take up his duty to investigate further rather than glibbly saying I don't have the time so forget about
I don't think it takes a very big jump to come to the conclusion that I did. What bothers me the most is that I went to some length to clearly and amicably indicate why I have not lapped up the coincidences and various conspiracy theories, and even indicated that I would take the time to review one of the videos, but you misread one sentence in my post and go on a personal attack. I don't believe I took the examples out of context when I simply point out that either they are quite common occurences or that without putting them into context they may be meaningless. I was simply asking questions and providing counter points, as Matt suggested. btw debate if you want but have questions and answers as that is a debate
As for spoonfeeding me the information, you seem to want to convince me that your theories are the Truth. Is it to much to ask for some specifics, rather than simply being told to watch these videos and read these reports (btw, at least one of those reports is nearly six hundred pages long and the videos appear to be about an hour and a half). And no I don't believe the media, I am one of its biggest critics. However, knowing the media's disdain for Bush, I find it completely unbelievable that they would ignore all this "evidence" that is so clear on its face that 58% of the populace can see its "Truth". And what about the Dem's. With their paid staffs, interns and others, wouldn't it seem much more believable that they would know these things and be shouting them from the rooftops, especially if the proof is so blatant. They would like nothing better than to impeach Bush. I imagine that would be easier done than said if they could show that he was involved in the murder of over three thousand US citizens. And how does an administration lead by an idiot cover up something this big for over five years. There must have been hundreds, if not thousands, of people involved to pull this off, yet no has come forward with the smoking gun. It's questions like these that make me doubt the conspiracy theories. I guess that just makes me stubborn and prejudiced, to use your words. Again, please re-read my prior post, particularly the sentence that caused you to spew so much anger my way. I wrote that post in the most conciliatory manner that I could, given our differences of opinion. Oops, sorry my points are opinion, yours are the Truth.
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Matt,
Your photos show absolutely nothing of what you are trying to say they show.
Do you mean to say the the highjackers flew the planes into the buildings exactly where demolition charges were placed? Rediculous.
Steel loses much of its strength way before it melts. With the physical damage to the fire proofing it's entirely likely steel would have been exposed directly to flames caused by thousands of gallons of jet fuel & the buildings contents.
I realise this was mentioned, but ignored by you.
As I recall the buildings didn't collapse immediately.
There is no evidense of controlled demolition except in some peoples imagination.
Does anybody really think a conspiracy of this magnitude could be kept secret or be coordinated such as it was?
We're talking about the government. A real model of efficiency.
Does anybody think that this country & it's leaders as well as the the "operatives" are so morally bankrupt that something like this would be allowed or be able to happen?
I know Roosevelt allowed the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor to get us into the war.
The moon landing was of course faked.
Sometimes bad things happen when instigated by bad people.The may have been mistakes & screw ups, but that doesn't mean conspiracy.
One of the more assinine theories to date.
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I have some questions regarding this theory of conspiracy where our government blew us up.
Which part of our government did this? White House staff? Some secret group of people in the CIA, FBI, or what?
How come this is not on all the major news stations of the world? Why is not the opposition party who is trying to make this administration look real bad, showing these pics on the news when it would benifit them greatly?
Other countries that hate our guts are not even bring this to light....that's odd isn't it?
All those jornalists out there that would love to break this story that is so clear...where are they? This is their big chance, is it not?
How large is this group of people that planed this? Or is it a small group within our government that is really good at keeping secrets? That's hard to believe, since Congress has a history of not being able to keep their mouths shut. Maybe nobody in Congress knows about it. Must be a real secret group huh?
Well, all of the news media, journalists, and even FOX news is really missing out on all this info.
I'm not saying our governmant has not hid things from us before, they have, they always will....
But this seems to be a stretch...at least until I could get some answers to some of the simple questions above.
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Your photos show absolutely nothing of what you are trying to say they show.
Do you mean to say the the highjackers flew the planes into the buildings exactly where demolition charges were placed? Rediculous.
Steel loses much of its strength way before it melts. With the physical damage to the fire proofing it's entirely likely steel would have been exposed directly to flames caused by thousands of gallons of jet fuel & the buildings contents.
I realise this was mentioned, but ignored by you.
First the photos show exactly what I am saying. There are 2 separate from what we can see; unrelated explosions going on here.
Now I am used to people looking at me like I am crazy some times and telling me I am paranoid. I know I am paranoid but it is because what I can see and use logic and reasoning to understand the “who and why”. I guess I am just blessed to have the gift of logical reasoning and common sense and use this with my general knowledge of how things work and don’t work which gives me a different outlook, view and opinion on many things.
For example there is without a doubt 2 separate explosions in the photos. The plane hit the tower between the 81st and 85th floors this caused many windows on the adjacent side of the tower to blow out sending flames rolling out. Yet we have an explosion also blowing out a window or windows in the sky lobby on the 78th floor.
Question How?
So we look at this and we wonder how that could happen. Well it is possible that the explosion of the plane could have caused this, but there should be flames and it should change in physical size and share the same characteristics as what we see from the rest of the explosion. This is if there is only one explosion. But seeing as how we do not see this rather see the opposite one with reasonable common sense will look at the probability of a secondary explosion. Which right there at that very moment when you see that there is the possibility that there could have been a secondary explosion you have to start considering many other things.
Also as to the comment “Do you mean to say the the highjackers flew the planes into the buildings exactly where demolition charges were placed? Rediculous.”
No what is ridiculous is that you are so ignorant to electricity, electronics and the other things that make up the world you live in. To have a controlled demolition you have to have wires running to explosives that can have an electrical charge put to them at the moment one wishes to explode the device. So it is very reasonable and even probable… even more… likely that upon impact many wires were broken and damaged which would have most likely shorted across steel from the structure creating a high voltage arc and or short to dissipate into any wire that was exposed and touching the steel or other conductor. If any of these wires happen to be connected to an explosive charge it is most logical that it would have caused the device to explode seeing how most use 9 to 12 volts to detonate. Now from other footage we can see even more explosions happening as many as 25 floors below the collapse. So from this it is logical that there was a great many devices planted in the building and even more so when you factor that controlled demolitions require many devices and many wires.
So we look at 2 possibilities here and using logic and common sense and knowledge we get this.
A) Small secondary explosion in these photos caused by plane and fuel: not plausible due to the visible characteristics of the explosions and how the differ greatly
b) Small secondary explosions caused by explosive device. Plausible due to visible characteristics of the explosion as it seemed to propel dust as opposed to flame. Possible due to the fact that if there was a secondary device such as those used in a controlled demolition present the possibility for premature detonation is high.
Now as to whom, well I don’t like to point fingers at any one person because I have absolutely nothing that could put one person as responsible. So the most logical thing would be do as most any other investigator would do and look for motive, who gains the most. Also if you think that the sides are so against each other you have the hook in your mouth and should tug real hard to rip it out… It will hurt but it will heal and you learn… unlike most fish who take the bait…
The Media was asked about. Well in fact there have been thousands of voices trying to get the Medias attention but due to the lack of credentials they are mocked and shunned. Even the ones who have the credentials and get on air are quickly told oops were out of time when certain issues are brought up and always with condescending comments from the hosts afterwards… See this is a perfect example of someone speaking based on emotion rather than facts and understanding. If it is such a big hoax and waste of time then get out there look at what we are saying debunk our evidence and show facts to oppose it and I will shut up. But until then I am going to scream as loud as I can “Cover Up”…
As to this comment:
Steel loses much of its strength way before it melts. With the physical damage to the fire proofing it's entirely likely steel would have been exposed directly to flames caused by thousands of gallons of jet fuel & the buildings contents.
Part of this is true; steel does lose strength before it melts. But what is also true is that the document temperatures are at between 1200 and 1300 degrees. UL which is Underwriter Laboratories who certifies most everything in construction tested sections of steel from the towers for strength and unprotected it lasted 6 hours at 2000 degrees with no sign of weakening. Also based on the amount of burning of the paint from the steel in the area thought to be the impact point the average temperatures are said to be around 500 to 600 degrees. This based on UL tests. Now as to the fire proofing… Do you really think that sprayed on asbestos just fell off? Have you ever seen this stuff? This stuff does not just fall off and in spite of what you might think was not as old as the buildings for it was added years later. Also if it would come off that easy then office doors being slammed would cause it to dislodge and become airborne which would be a huge health risk to the millions of people in NY. Now do you believe that your government would allow that to happen? Because that would be a huge cover up there and god only knows the lawsuits… Or rather; it does not dislodge very easy and there for is the reason that the port authority was given waiver after waiver regarding getting it cleaned up but was told at some point it has to be dealt with.
Also note the FEMA and the Official report say that the fuel was all burnt within roughly the first 10 minutes. And the contents were standard as per fire code. These items would not have burned at high temps nor would they have created enough heat to weaken the steel… this is the reason for fire codes after all…
Again logic with a little common sense exposes things for what they really are. But most people do not want to know… they want people to tell them…
“There is no evidense of controlled demolition except in some peoples imagination.”
Why on earth would one make such an accusation with everything pointing to the opposite to include testimony of most everyone on the scene that day who survived and every single piece of video and audio footage. Look you can not debate an issue without knowing the facts and or evidence that is presented by both sides… it is simply ludicrous. This is the reason in the first post I gave links to the video footage known to be the actual footage and the official and final reports. Take a look at both sides do the math and when 1+1 starts equaling BS then maybe you will see what I can see. But the most likely chain of events will be, people will continue to ridicule TM7 and myself and without even taking the time to see if there is any validity or even a possibility to what we are saying being possible. They will continue to live life as it is moaning about this administration that they so passionately affirm to be so admirable.
People the logical truth to the evidence when look at objectively points to the possibility that in fact “big corporate” controls our government. It is so evident if you will just look around you and think. They also control the media or at least most of it. And as to the question about other countries knowing and saying something, well again if you would look you would find that several other countries have spoke up but was not publicized. One of these was a country that so many here hold near and dear to their heart, Israel, in fact they knew it was going to happen before it happen and told us but we did nothing… know what they did? They packed up all their people who was in the WTC and moved them to another state. Hmm they sound a bit paranoid too don’t they…
Ok here it is… plain and simple… from this point on.... please inform your self before opening your mouth... please...
Matt
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Yeah you’re right I am not excluding anyone who wishes to discuss just those who only want to ridicule but they will post anyway they always do... I just like to tell them not to so when they step to far over the line it is not a shock when I say something to them. I would love for someone to prove me wrong... I just don’t see it happening... and I also look at both sides I have as much information discounting my belief of 9/11 as I do explaining but the ones that try to disprove all seem to do so with insults and subject change and never address a single point rather evade it...
as to the info about the fire yes I have seen it and think I have a bookmark... know I do I will pull it. but all the info about it is stated in the first video near the begining.
Matt
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Have a listen to Larry Silverstein himself... this should be enough to reopen the investigation
Matt
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I found this article quite interesting http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=1 Sorry, not sure how to post links. Seems pretty well documented, but I'm sure that Matt and TM7 will find plenty of fault to it (and probably rip into me for being stupid enough to even consider it ;)).
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Needless to say there is plenty of rebutal to the infamous Pop Mec article
Just as the Popular Mechanics article offered plenty of rebuttal to the conspiracy theories.
But what is interesting is how the top brass at PM was fired [a Hearst publication btw], and this guy Meigs [and 5 guys] was put in place and wrote/edited the pop science justifications for the official 9/11 version.
Now, TM7 I would be willing to bet good money that virtually all of the conspiracy sights and theorists were created and/or brought in to attack the official 9/11 version. Does that by itself make them questionable?
I have great questions about the official version and have found inconsistencies and misinformation
Apparently those at Popular Mechanics found inconsistencies and misinformation with the conspiracy theories, but you choose to ignore their reasons. I can only presume that this is because they run counter to your natural inclination to believe in conspiracies. I have clearly indicated that I tend to believe that the simplist answer is usually (not always, but usually) the correct one. If someone provides a "smoking gun" or some conspiracy theory that doesn't have other explanations that are as plausible, or usually much more plausible, in favor of the official version, then I would be willing to consider them. However, I just haven't seen anything that impressive coming from the conspiracy theorists.
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TM7 have you seen this video?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3498980438587461603
[gv=475,325]http://vp.video.google.com/videodownload?version=0&secureurl=ugAAABKeDL-V17JZ7Qq5NDxYIzjtdH5hHSlBRae61NSqzoFte-qRFdxLJuxd4zoUceOjwLX7-esaaVovcC-YpDG65e0l15ihSgeWQc9gyLuASS10bcZmVyipESSmcK6kY-AXd4fKqZ_bRgst0tEHV9fwiL30JCzv_lgKavDL77KNpwH8jRouWyjDEs69ea55Ibvm3ePieOGY-2_DGuHXJovCfdiY2YgAbMfPcs-BpdhgbMMK-h3UC5twk0gqHXtwiQbtxA&sigh=FSmwMiC9BharHSex9lcWHqUT9Jk&begin=0&len=6280380&docid=-3498980438587461603[/gv]
^-- Press the play button here to start the video...
Matt
http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/mp3player.swf
Press Play to Start the Audio
Press pause to stop the Audio
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What are the odds...
http://www.ktbs.com/news/local/3970141.html
Matt
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check out this site TM7.
http://www.cjr.org/tools/owners/
who owns what...
Matt
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and yet poeple wonder how a media cover up could happen...
Was the Jim Marrs/Honegger link interesting to you and plausible, 13 pages of reading?
yes it was already in my bookmarks...
Matt
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I have added a new feature to GBO... Now those who do not have the time to search the net looking for videos will be able to watch the video right from the GBO site and never have to leave...
Dont even have to click on the links we post... just click the play button for the video and sit back and watch... the one in the first post makes so many things clear in the first 5min... give it a look...
Matt
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Here is another informative video: Titled Loose Change
[gv=475,325]http://vp.video.google.com/videodownload?version=0&secureurl=wAAAAGGoAzYidThCDG9mwtcgzSdnCffANguLy_IuracBcWLxV9_L_b963zPq6RZ9LMnDzd3SvS2P-HAy8dI5rEHWZMPBb9OwsCCpo0sjiDlJGe85FmhkFoXYpT5OHOT_ZBMz-NiZOXZ0CvObHdHE9PJPigSqVc_YTQTaT9N4TEcffX_sVRbRaaGLb_7A7ZCb0vr2JByZxw88dOH_qqfTMZQMaMFv8TNHUtwYdOsE1anfmHxQ3bYuEFn3B-5ZIMxn0c83Tzt1vylz-TjSuMCBsq0xBo0&sigh=2sUExxmf112kPZHw234Msj6xLdw&begin=0&len=5362996&docid=7866929448192753501[/gv]
^_ Just press Play
Matt
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So how many people have took a second look at 911 after seeing this thread and the posts in it?
Has it opened anyones eyes to the possiblility?
Matt
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I do believe that very possibly, Oswald did not act alone and there may well have been a swarthy man involved in the OKC bombing..but the WT towers and the Pentagon, I just can't swallow.
Just too many witnesses SAW those planes hit all three places and too many witnesses on the planes described the facts of the takeover by terrorists.
Being a blacksmith, I can tell you steel does melt at 2700 deg F., however there is a heating up process. When steel reaches between 700 and 800 degrees, where the dull glowing red just starts, it is already severely weakened and I would estimate from experience will it support much less than half what it would at room temp.
When steel reaches the 1200 to 1450 range it is extremely pliable and weak. At 1200 F, it is a very bright, glowing red. I can clamp a piece of 1/2" stock by the hot end and twirl the rod around in a coil with just one finger. By the time steel reaches 1450-1475 F..it is glowing tangerine and has become austinetic, where the molecules are racing in disorder so fast that a magnet is not at all interested in the steel. At this same temperature the steel flows under my hammer like child's modeling clay.
No surprise the towers collapsed at a reported 1200 F, I would expect them to have collapsed at more like 750 F.
Molten steel in "puddles" in the wreckage ? Don't know how accurate that is, but there is always the possibility that in that wreckage which burned very hot, there couild have been some type tunnel that worked like a forge blower and drew air in heating the pocket where steel may have been, to a melting point. Not extremely likely but indeed possible.
With my coal forge and a clean fire it will burn quietly at appx 2500 F, when I start forcing air to it ..it quickly spikes to appx 3300F.
I did read a report that during construction the I-beams were being coated with an asbestos material but at a certain point the enviro whackos found out and they put up such a hue and cry that the coating was abandoned about 2/3 of the way to the top.
However, I can't and won't vouch for the reports accuracy...even though it sounds good..
Now if the govt planned it all...how in the world did they just happen to set the bombs off at the same moment that the planes with their load of passengers and terrorist thugs hit the buildings ?
Or are you trying to say that the terrorists on a suicide run were hired by the govt..Yikes!..how much would the govt have to pay to get 19 guys to take a one-way plane ride ?
Ted Olsen, council to Pres Bush spoke with his wife Barbara, who was aboard the ill fated plane that hit the Pentagon. Was Barbara also a suicide bomber ?
She did however,do a credible job of describing the terrorists and their modus operandi, and she was a very credible investigative reporter in her own right .
And the plane that went down in Pa., ...did the govt. "hired guns" give up on the job ?
It seems that by your estimation, when the govt agents failed with the Pa plane, the plotters in Washington could have just as easily blown up the building the 4th plane was supposedly headed for !
It certainly seems that in order to believe such a conspiracy theory, one would have to overlook or suppress at least a million pertinent facts and cling to a small set of sketchy rumors and innuendos...or else be the kind of cynical person that suspects a plot when the neighbor says "good morning" !
Sorry ! I may have been born at night...but it wasn't LAST night !
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Tm;
I can understand your sincerity, but still have a couple questions:
Is it logical that our govt (if that is the culprit ion your view) would risk the entire financial stability and thus, our nations survival by destroying one of our financial nerve centers and 3000 people ?
There are softer, less expensive targets to hit that would cause as much indignation among the citizenry, if that were their aim.
E.g. the statue of liberty, Golden Gate bridge, any of the NY bridges , Mt Rushmore and several other high sentimental targets...they could even have hit all of them.
The conspiracy would have to include many thousands of compliant co-conspirators...not likely successful !
Unlike Waco, where they did their best to make sure that any disagreeing witnesses were fully DEAD .
I cannot of couirse, comment on the fuel oil heats generated, not my field..assume your figures valid.
Then there's the thousands of witnesses, plus videos of the planes crashing into the buildings..?
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I am not certain of any Conspiracy Theories, but I have always wondered about these and the aftermath they caused :
1. Pres. Lincolins assination
2. Pearl Harbor & WWII
3. Both Kennedy assinations
4. 911
5. And of course Just Who it is that is running the whole show! I really dont think Bush or any Pres. is capeable of doing something like 911 alone.
Thanks, Just my 2 cents worth 8)
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Another thing the theorists latched onto was the 'fact' that the fires caused by the burning jet fuel was not hot enough to 'melt' the steel skeleton of the buildings in NYC. I don't know the impact speed of the 2 planes in NYC, but too me it looked they were going flank speed; (maybe up to 550 miles per hour?) I would imagine that would cause a very high collision impulse. I don't know if this is separate from the mentioned figure that the burning jet fuel from each plane had rough parity with the detonation of 2000 lbs of TNT. Imagine placing a demolition charge of one ton of TNT inside a building and setting it off. Possibly this is separate from the actual collision impulse which I would imagine would be a high figure. As for the steel not melting, structural steel does not have to melt to cause a structure to lose it's strength. I know there are examples of buildings that burned for hours and did not collapse, they also did not get struck with a large airplane going at flank speed and filled with jet fuel. As for the Shanksville crash site, they often mention there was no wreckage found, I don't know either way if that is true or not. I do know that airliners often are largely burned away when they crash and burn in a difficult to access area. One example is the 747 freight plane that crashed at Halifax International Airport several years ago. You could clearly see that the fuselage was largely burned away on the news clips. This is all I am going to say about the whole issue. I don't want to press any further on a spot that is still very raw and sore. Regards to my American cousins, both literally and figuratively.
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After musing through all these factual posts, let me see if I get this correctly stated. GW gets with Rudy G. and pays off Bin L to hire 20 or so fellows to come to America, train to fly and punch a few holes in the WTC ?? GW's reason is so he can sell off more stock, Rudies reason is so he can tear down the WTC and erect new buildings in beautiful New York. Bin L makes a tape and says I did it. GW and Rudy G. in the clear. All Fed, state, local, county law enforcement in on the deal..FBI, NSA, CIA all cover it up. GW wants to throw everyone off the trail and invades IRAQ. Now WTC not on the front burner. The $25,000,000 reward put on Bin L just a ruse. Bin L actually had surgery and is now 5 foot tall, living in Paris eating truffles.
Why didn't I figure all this out before. "It's so easy a cave man could do it"
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After musing through all these factual posts, let me see if I get this correctly stated. GW gets with Rudy G. and pays off Bin L to hire 20 or so fellows to come to America, train to fly and punch a few holes in the WTC ?? GW's reason is so he can sell off more stock, Rudies reason is so he can tear down the WTC and erect new buildings in beautiful New York. Bin L makes a tape and says I did it. GW and Rudy G. in the clear. All Fed, state, local, county law enforcement in on the deal..FBI, NSA, CIA all cover it up. GW wants to throw everyone off the trail and invades IRAQ. Now WTC not on the front burner. The $25,000,000 reward put on Bin L just a ruse. Bin L actually had surgery and is now 5 foot tall, living in Paris eating truffles.
Why didn't I figure all this out before. "It's so easy a cave man could do it"
In short NO you don’t have it right.
No one is saying exactly who or exactly why as these are still unknown.
Fact: two planes hit the towers
Fact: the fires were not hot enough to melt steel.
Fact: molten steel remained at ground zero weeks after 9/11
Fact: explosions were recorded by several sources seconds before the planes hit the towers and also hundreds of others were record in the hour and a half that followed up to the collapse.
Fact: nearly all debris was removed and sold to china before it could be inspected
Fact: Rudy G. got a phone call BEFORE the towers fell to pull back because they were going to fall.
Fact: Building 7 was “Pulled” (destroyed by controlled demolitions)
Fact: Not one single picture has been released showing a plane hitting the pentagon.
Fact: the spending of over 2.3 trillion dollars was to be explained by the Army on Sept 12, which all information regarding it was destroyed in the “attack”
Fact: the information on over 100 billion dollars worth of SEC investigations was destroyed.
Fact: cost to remove the asbestos fire proofing was estimated at 1 billion dollars which was to be paid in full by the NY port authority.
Fact: The turns and actions taken by the plane which is said to have hit the pentagon could not have been executed by a pilot with less than 2 hrs of heavy aircraft flight time.
Fact: of the hundreds of people said to have been killed on the planes only one of the families has asked questions.
Fact: 56% of America thinks that the truth about 9/11 is being covered up.
With just the above known facts one should conclude further investigations are needed to find the truth.
Matt
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I just don't beleive that if someone seriously thought this was true. They would have to be crazy to take on a conspiracy of this size. If they can kill thousands and cover it up I myself would be afraid that my meager existence would be in peril.
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If they did that it would create martyrs. I don’t think they want to do that do you? Also though they may want to reduce the overall population I don’t think they want to cut it by 50% right now.
I don’t think I have met one person who after watching the videos did not have a shocked look on their face. Please do not take mine or anyone else’s opinion on the matter. Look at the facts and research it yourself and then make your up your own mind.
Matt
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Matt...because it was printed in the paper, or fostered forward by "Conspiracy Experts" who provide data for everything that has happened on GW watch apparently makes it all true...Please give us your theory on who the perps might be ?? And Why they would do it ??
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Matt:
There has been video of the plane hitting the pentagon...taken by the security camera on the outside of the building...none from the multitude on the inside though..
Mac
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Well...that might be because people "don't" want to believe our government is corrupt...and the government controlled media portrays anyone with viewpoints differing from theirs a "conspiracy nut"...and made to look like a nut case...
Mac
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Thanks...my neck and back & side is healing up...still will take some time to get over everything...On the rings...I let my one gun dealer friend see them..and he told one of the older guys their I had some(went in to order the bases)..and he asked me if I was willing to trade for a newer style set...He swapped me for a brand new set of Leupold QRW's..so..Again..Thanks
Mac
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Where's the outrage? Is outrage dead in America? Some leadership, ehh?
..........TM7
Is outrage dead? Hardly!!
Look at our civil justice system... look at our media... outrage is far from dead. I actually think the media is showing proper restraint by not publishing every conspiracy theory they hear. They do report on the government scandals, and they do report on 911 theories every now and then, but I wouldn't expect them to have daily reports on the latest conspiracy theory alleged in every little internet forum. The idea that the media is government controlled couldn't be farther from the truth. The media loves government scandal and feed off the downfall of political figures. I am not a fan of modern journalism simply because it's rare that they check facts before reporting now-a-days. To call the media "government controlled" just because the responsible journalists prefer fact over theory is the typical American way of thinking. Act now, think later... right? Our media is clogged with government scandal... our civil justice system is clogged with frivolous lawsuits... there is a national mistrust and hated for everyone by everyone... outrage is far from dead... it's destroying our once-proud nation
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Yep;
I guess those airplanes that thousands of people observed flying into the WTT and Pentagon were just just balloons...
And that's why we haven't seen them in Macy's Thanksgiving Day parades...
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TM7 you know what is really funny. I have shown the videos (911 mysteries, loose change and a few others) to at least 100 people now and though some of them already thought that some things did not add up many believed the official story. All showed the outrage that you speak of but the funny part is those who believed the official story were the most outraged.
To think that ones government and or media would betray them in a way such as this is just too hard for some people to believe. Once they see that they have been betrayed they seem to be very much outraged over it, I know I was.
IG you seem to have your facts mixed up friend. No one has seen the plane that hit the pentagon yet... they will not release any footage that show a plane... just an explosion... and I for one am sure there was 2 planes that hit the towers I just am unsure what 2 planes.
Matt
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Regardless of the disagreements, theorys and seemingly unlove for the government---I take this time to offer to each of you---A very Merry Christmas or any other adverb, noun or adjective that may represent your feelings for the season.........and I wish some of you would contact O.J. and put that theory to bed...
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And yes, hundreds of firemen and police officers that were there had their own stories, as well as the men and women, both military and civilian at the pentagon, where of course no airplane crashed. I pray for them all that justice will be done........through a rapid compression of U235 in a couple of overseas areas...
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TM7---As we all go through life there are questions we ask that will never be answered. Walk through life, don't run, stop and smell the flowers, touch a childs life and love your family like it was the last day. It would seem that as adament you are providing a government cover up, I am of course offering a different opinion. That is what makes this country so great. I have been in many countries over the last 68 years where any opinion but the local governments would get you in jail for a little talk.
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What evidence ?? Your polemic opinion is nothing more than germane to what the subject refers-------
"Conspiracy Therories". Show me tyranny, and I will be the first to join your Army of Darkness. Globalist ??
No, just an average Joe, like millions before me, who spent 50 years in the government service protecting the freedoms you continue to enjoy. While many of you slept in comfort and serenity ---I and many others stood the watch. I ask you, if there is a better country or government you would prefer to live in---please name it ??? And no, I am not questioning your patriotism, so don't go there....
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Further more... and this is for anyone who reads these posts... IF YOU DISAGREE then fine say so and be on your way. DO NOT stick around and call names or try to insult any of us who know what we see and have the mental capacity to understand it and see it for what it is... I will not give another warning... stir up crap in this forum and see your membership go away...
If you do not believe in conspiracy theories then why the hell are you even wasting your time to read them...?
Matt
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TM7-MATT-----forgive me. I thought this forum was open to debate and did not understand that it was only for a select few whose views should go unchallenged. Again, forgive me..thank you for the discussion and Merry Christmas...
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TM7-MATT-----forgive me. I thought this forum was open to debate and did not understand that it was only for a select few whose views should go unchallenged. Again, forgive me..thank you for the discussion and Merry Christmas...
The key word here is debate... it is open for debate but in order to debate a topic you must first be informed on the topic which you do not seem to be. So take my post as you wish but I am sick of people poping in and saying " oh you bunch of idiots" and such...
If you wish to debate the topic then get better informed then come back and we can debate...
Matt
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Matt--------since you are without doubt the World Wide expert on 9/11, I will leave you with the last word. But if I might with your permission. The secondary effect (dust dot) in your photos ?? Just after the plane hits the tower. It is a FAE effect. Not all fuel exploded and burned on contact..some was vapored under high pressure, compressed and seconds later ignited.......I shall post no more on this subject..Thank you... IMHO
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Matt--------since you are without doubt the World Wide expert on 9/11, I will leave you with the last word. But if I might with your permission. The secondary effect (dust dot) in your photos ?? Just after the plane hits the tower. It is a FAE effect. Not all fuel exploded and burned on contact..some was vapored under high pressure, compressed and seconds later ignited.......I shall post no more on this subject..Thank you... IMHO
Well if you would watch the videos then you would know that what you purposed is not possible. For the white clouds I refer to NEVER BURNED, it was a white/grey cloud of smoke from the time it started until the end... I have several camera angles of the same shot and never does it burn and therefore could not have been fuel. If you would like I can post them so that you can better understand why I say this.
Matt
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MATT---thank you, but no. Let us leave it at an impasse...If and when they bring someone to trial over 9/11, the conspirators...I will buy you the biggest steak in Kansas City with all the trimmings...not an offer I lightly make.....good luck to you and yours, may you always walk in the lightness of the Lord..I'm off to Norfolk, Va ----work to do....
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hmmm why is it that this sends all kinds of flags up on my end... Anyone else smell something funny here?
International airline to allow cell phone chatter on planes
POSTED: 12:29 p.m. EST, December 21, 2006
By Grace Wong
Special to CNN
Adjust font size:
NEW YORK (CNN) -- From cell phone use to high-speed Internet access, the connected life is spreading to the skies.
In January, Emirates airline plans to launch mobile phone usage in its planes, making it the first airline to allow passengers to make cell phone calls on its flights.
And Australian carrier Qantas plans to start evaluating technology that lets fliers use their cell phones and PDAs during flight early next year.
Fliers have long been able to keep in touch with those on the ground by using phones built into the backs of airplane seats. But the costs of those seatback phones can be upwards of $10 a minute, plus a connection fee.
In contrast, the cost of calls made in-flight on Emirates will be in line with international roaming rates, the airline said. Those rates vary by mobile carrier and by location but can be as low as $1 to $2 a minute.
But while some upscale, long-haul airlines are installing equipment onboard that will allow for cell phone use, it may be a while before the service makes its way to the U.S.
U.S. carriers don't allow in-flight cell phone calls, although the FAA is reviewing the safety concerns associated with mobile calls made in the air.
The regulatory agency has asked a committee to conduct a study looking at whether portable electronic devices like cell phones interfere with aircraft navigation systems. Findings of the study are due at the end of December.
Furthermore, airlines in the troubled U.S. industry are struggling to survive and new in-flight services may not attract new customers, analysts say.
"There's no economic incentive for them to do it. Domestically they're not going to bring anyone extra on to their airplane with that service," said airline industry consultant Michael Boyd.
A majority of business travelers (61 percent) oppose the idea of being able to use their phones in the sky, according to a global survey conducted by travel management company Carlson Wagonlit Travel early this year.
But if the technology is there, the service will eventually make its way to the skies, said Chris McGinnis, editor of Expedia Travel Trendwatch.
"Whether people like it or not, in-flight cell phone use is going to become a reality," he said.
Airlines are also exploring less intrusive ways to keep in-step with the increasingly connected lifestyle of their passengers.
According to the annual Airline IT Trends Survey conducted by industry group SITA and Airline Business magazine, 59 percent of airlines plan to offer in-flight Internet access by the end of 2008.
One company helping U.S. carriers make that leap is Louisville, Colorado-based AirCell, which won a license earlier this year to provide exclusive broadband connectivity to U.S. airlines starting in 2008.
Companies have attempted to tap the market for in-flight Internet access before -- the most notable being Boeing, which launched its Connexion high-speed broadband business in 2000.
Several international airlines installed Boeing's system, which cost travelers from $10 to $30 a flight. But in August, Boeing said it was closing Connexion because the market for it hadn't materialized as expected.
AirCell CEO Jack Blumenstein said Connexion's fate doesn't spell doom for the future of onboard Internet access.
For one, Boeing's system was expensive -- it cost about $1 million to outfit a single plane. In contrast, airlines can equip a plane with AirCell's technology for about one-tenth of that cost, Blumenstein said.
Expedia's McGinnis thinks people will take advantage of onboard Internet access as long as it is cheap enough.
"If you can sit there and stream movies and read your email or do research -- it's absolutely something people would use," he said.
Blumenstein said the price of in-flight Internet access offered by AirCell should be comparable to or slightly higher than what users pay to access "hot spots" on the ground.
Accessing a Wi-Fi hot spot at a cafe can run anywhere from $8 for a single day of access to around $30 a month for unlimited access, depending on the service operator.
Now if my memory serves me right... cell phones already work fine on airlines even at 15k ft, just ask all those who got calls from loved ones on those planes on 9/11... yeah right... then why would they need to install hardware for them to work? cause they dont now... ever tried to use a cell phone on a plane?... I have... it dont work long after take off...
Matt
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I understand that the cell phone story is bogus, but havent they had phones in planes for a while or is that just on television. I am not sure how upscale the planes that crashed into the towers were, but is it POSSIBLE that they were equipped with phones?
Heather
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This kind of sophisticated plan on this level with precise timeing could not have been done by any governmental agency. Let alone to then keep it secret. I might believe that evil men could do anything, maybe an assasination or misinformation, but this is the gang that couldn't shoot straight. Do they strike you as brainiacs?
Remember that if the govenment ran crime, it wouldn't pay.
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No, it was a conspiracy. No one has been to the moon..My evidence is ---everyone knows the moon is made out of green cheese..Even though the gravitational pull on the moon is about one sixth, the landing vehicle would have sank into the cheese....IMHO
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Do you believe a man walked on the moon....?
Nope, didn't happen. It was filmed in a studio here on earth.
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Do you believe a man walked on the moon....?
Nope, didn't happen. It was filmed in a studio here on earth.
agreed
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TM7,
I don't think most people really believe that the moon landing was a fake, just becase OJ did a movie about it people like to think about that. Again, a leak would have occurred if a hoax was done on that level. People can not keep a secret, it burns inside of them, at least they talk when on deathbed or tell kids or girlfriends to impress them, human nature. I have never heard of anyone giving details on how this was faked. Just think of all the technitions, guards, bueracrats ect. that would be involved. Not to mention movie people, we know they can't shup up.
I love conspiracy stuff, but just like the Kennedy Assasination, 911, Bigfoot, UFO's bring me a witness with undeniable proof. Except for the Oil conspiracy, that is real, but it is done by private enterprise.
and as for the genius and products that came out of the moon landing, it was not the government, it was what we, as a nation, do best, private industry making products for the consumer, to make a profit.,, The American way.
The Govenment dosen't even collect tax's efficiently, look at all the loopholes. Come to think of it, what does the Gov do that the private sector could not do better? That should be another forum.
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I would like to know why some think it did not happen...???
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Honestly,you conspiracy nuts have way to much free time ::)Why not put all the time and energy in on something to help somebody in need?
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Honestly,you conspiracy nuts have way to much free time ::)Why not put all the time and energy in on something to help somebody in need?
Well now what is it you think we are trying to do...
By the way for all of you who think we are the conspiracy nuts and think that you are the many... have a look
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You can get a poll to to lean or landslide whatever direction you want it to by polling the people that you already know have the same opinion that you want to express.If you put the exact same poll on Imus in the Morning and The O'Reilly Factor you will get two completly differant results.Put the poll in question to EVERY person in the country and I would be willing to bet the results would be reversed,that is if EVREY person responded,because most people with the "no" opinion would simply think the notion was silly,therefore a waste of time that can never be retrived and not vote at all.Hey,I think I'm wasting time.
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Independent national polls show over 50% believes there is a cover up and 20% believe Bush is involved... Do some research and stop talking out of your ass... Get the facts and then let’s talk... until then it is just ignorant babble you utter...
Matt
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this will be my last thought on this subject, although I do not believe that 911 was done by US gov personell I am glad that there are people out there that question things, and I have enjoyed hearing everyones thoughts. Every society needs skeptics, keep the bastards on their toes.
The one overrideing conspiricy that I KNOW exists is that the Eastern US establishment, Red and Blue 'crats think that they are smarter than the rest of us and that we should just shut up and let them run things. I will never trust an Ivy leage type politician. Did you see the movie "the good shepard" all the CIA spooks recruited from Yale U. And what choice did we have last Pres election, two guys from Yale.
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Independent nation polls show that everyone who ate carrots in 1867 is now 100% dead....I guess this proves that carrots are bad for you-----IMHO
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no it just proves your a sarcasic smartass.
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Matt----I am sorry you feel that way....We will leave it at that as I do not wish to get into name calling as it serves no useful purpose . Conspiracy theories are just that........a figment of "what if" with no proof based in factual investigative elements..Matt, walk through life and enjoy it a little.......it don't last forever you know...
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see this just further proves who is missing out. You seem to think that TM7 and I just make this stuff up. We have proof and evidence you are just to hard headed to look at it cause you think it is made up... Before you rule out a theory you should disprove it first.
Matt
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MATT-TM7-------with all the proof you have, please take it and provide the data to the nearest attorney general or drive by media...Give your written proof, names,dates, etc..to the New York Times and let them write it up..Give it to Mike Moore and let him make a movie. Give it to Alec Baldwin and let him run with it......Remember though, 1000 people can keep a secret if 999 are dead----AND Boys---if you really want to talk about a REAL conspiracy.....What was Sandy Berger taking from the National Archives ???? ???IMHO
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Ask Sandy to ask Mr. Clinton if he can tell you.
Although from the lack of outrage on the part of the Bushies, I would surmise that it was something mutually embarassing. Wouldn't you think that the attorney general would have pushed for an inditement and stronger punishment if Mr. Bush desired it, or if you or I did same thing.
Smells funny, and I don't mean Ha Ha funny.
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MATT-TM7-------with all the proof you have, please take it and provide the data to the nearest attorney general or drive by media...Give your written proof, names,dates, etc..to the New York Times and let them write it up..Give it to Mike Moore and let him make a movie. Give it to Alec Baldwin and let him run with it......Remember though, 1000 people can keep a secret if 999 are dead----AND Boys---if you really want to talk about a REAL conspiracy.....What was Sandy Berger taking from the National Archives ???? ???IMHO
Truth is all those folks already have the facts, they have been presented them. They just don't care just like you don't care. They are either part of the cover up or so jaded and believe so strongly that the folks running our government really do have our best interest at heart they are willing to over look bad things done for a good cause. Or are just plain stupid, take your pick of which applies.
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While I don't have the energy to do as much research, and watch as many video's as Matt, and while I don't very often even agree with him on some matters. I do find it astonishing that some people will buy anything the goverment and news media puts out.
After 911 and such things as the invasion of Iraq, the Patriot Act and several other things, I began to realize that I wasn't as paranoid as I believed some people thought I was.
Example; 19 terrorist, all trained (if memory serves me correct) in Afganistan, funded by Saudi Arabia, most of them Saudies, none of them Iraqies. Solution? Invade Iraq?
Example; The Patriot Act. I go to the bank to by a new Peterbilt, and have to sign a form labeled Patriot Act, which acknowleges the fact that the goverment is making damm sure I am spending the money on a new Peterbilt. Never mind, that I am an American, and never mind, that I have always been an American, and never mind that I borrowed the money from the same bank, on three other occasions to buy three other Peterbilts, and paid the IRS on the profit from them. What the hell did the Patriot Act accomplish here?
Now it made sense to invade Afganistan, that's where the terrorist were trained. It made sense to invade Saudi Arabia, that's who paid for the training. Wait a minute! We didn't invade Saudi Arabia, did we? Hmmmm
The Patriot Act. Wasn't it already against the law to fund terrorism? Wasn't it already against the law to hi-jack planes and fly them into anything? Including another country, much less a building.
And didn't it use to be against the law to invade an American citizen's pesonal and and business life. Didn't you use to have to have a search warrant to go into someones house, and sieze property? And didn't you have to provide them with a copy of the search warrant, and didn't you have to tell them that you searched their home, in the cases where they weren't at home when it was searched? As a 20 year veteran Police Officer (retired) , yes, I believe you did. Not anymore.
I watched U.S. Representative Ron Paul speak yesterday about the Iraq war. He's a Republican so you Republicans relax, and no I am not a Democrat either. I'm a fed up American. He provided the statistic that in the first 45 months of the Iraq war we have had more soldiers killed, than in the first 45 months of the Viet Nam war. Another stat is that over 70% of America no longer agrees with the Iraq war, and that it was started under false pretenses. That I believe I got off of Fox news, the fair and balance one they say. Bagdad is in civil war, the Congress wants out, and GW says hell no, we're staying. What I wonder is how we got to a place where ONE MAN can decide on a country (dictatorships excluded) going to war without congressional approval i.e. a vote. Now some of you guy are going to say I don't support the troops. Don't even go there. I have a Son who is a Sgt. in the 82nd whom has been to Afganistan, & Iraq, and after being back stateside less than 2 weeks is now Back in Iraq, and you can bet your ass I support him and every other mother's son who is there now. I just don't think I am as stupid as Uncle Sam thinks I am. As for Matt's idea. I haven't a clue. I just know that since 911, we all have fewer rights than we did before 911, and the Constitution and Bill of Rights is a joke in Washington D.C., and that our sons and daughters are pawns on a political chess board, and its getting them killed. Like the words say in a song that Merle Haggard sings. Politicians do all the talking, and the soldiers pay the dues.JM2CW
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Well now they are openly stating that they are looking at bank records... not long now... the true meaning of Shock & Awe...
Matt
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Although I am not happy with the Patriot Act intrusion, let us not forget that the IRS is notified if you move $10,000.00 in you account (your money) and this has been going on prior 911. It "began" quite some time back. People just haven't been paying attention.
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yeah being in business for 12 years or so now I have seen this many times
Matt
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Mr. Graybeard---you have done a superb service with this website and I enjoy it very much. Having said that, I do care what happens in this country, I am not jaded nor stupid. Because we may differ in our approach or belief in certain elements does not mean we cannot be civil or respectful toward one another. It after all is only a difference of opinion..........I guess the other two guys that are adament about Conspiracy could not carry their "own water" and had to call in the "Big Gun". IMHO
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Good day to you TM7--MATT-----I also would like the time to further investigate this subject, but alas, do not have the time to do so..I will leave it up to you, but will not post, as to disspell the sarcasm you think I projected, but will follow your line of reasoning. It has been a pleasure to converse with you... ;D
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TM7, although I have not done an intense study of the event. Mr. Roosevelt knew perfectly well that Japan was going to attack the United States. They in some ways were forced into it, when we cut off their oil while they were at war. I have read somewhere that he knew about the plans to attack Pearl Harbor 2 or 3 months in advance. Now why would he let this happen?
For the simple reason, that America had just came out of WW I and wanted no part of forigen war. We as a people had became ISOLATIONISTS. The attack had to come to get the American people on the side of war. Ninty percent of the American people today do not know this and the other 10% wouldn't believe it.
Could history have repeated itself, with the same results, but for different reasons?
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Dee, you bring up want I can only call an eye opening point. But as you also said most people do not know or want to see it. It is my belief that we are seeing history repeat but even worse than before. I feel that our government had both hands in the 9/11 attacks completely.
I use the laws of averages to help me come to the conclusion that 9/11 was an inside job. I will explain what I mean. Having visited all but 2 states and most every big city in the US I have noticed that on average 1 out of 10 people seem to be of a larger build. By this I do not mean overweight rather muscular. So keeping this in mind we are not a weak society. If you have 4 men armed only with box cutters and butter knifes and 100 or more average Americans in that 100 there will be at least 20 that will be willing to fight the 4, of them 10 will be of a larger build and 5 would probably be willing to fight all 4 by themselves. So to try and make me believe that 4 men armed with box cutters could possibly over take 100 or more average Americans will be a hard task. This would insinuate that Americans are inferior to Arabs and I for one do not think so. And for 4 Arabs to dominate over 100 Americans they would have to be far superior to us all around which I think we all know is not the case.
Lets also not forget that this style of a hijacking had not occurred and let us also not forget how many hijackings in which guns were used that have been foiled by the passengers and in some cases only one or two passengers.
What people do not seem to grasp or understand is that if only one fact or one piece of evidence is found that contradicts the official explanation then this alone demands further investigations. After all this was “The Worst Terror Attack on US Soil”. Once you start looking into this you will find that you have been fooled by the media and government and will be shocked at all they have kept from us or overlooked in a manner as to infer the information is unimportant or meaningless. People really need to wake up and take our country back by putting into office people looking to serve their country and not get rich off of the population.
Will it ever happen? Probably not…
Matt
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Well Matt, I won't say what your are suggesting is impossible. I will state what I have observed over the last 30 years. 20 of those years as a Police Officer. I ran a swat team for 5 years which I organized and trained, and a tactical K-9 unit which I also organized and trained both dogs and officers, plus ran a complete shift of officers as a Sgt during most of that time. What am I saying? I delt with a wide range of people in stressful situations. We as a nation have involved into a society of watchers. There are still those few who step up in times of a disaster, but the majority of the population let someone else do it.
Example; What is the response when one has a prowler? Call 911.
What is the response when one is assaulted? Call 911.
And so on. I used to answer calls and the people would be astounded that a burglar would break into their house when they were there and rob them. If you suggested they arm themselves, they were agast, that you would suggest such a thing. People cannot grasp the idea of taking care of themselves in a crisis. You can explain to them that most of the time, when an assault, robbery, rape, ect., occurs the police are blocks or miles away, and valuabel minutes away. It never occured to them to handle the situation themselves, or even equip themselves to do so should such an event occur. Many folks talk about getting a gun for the house, but once they see the expense, and responsiblilty of learning to do something they really have no interest in, it usually never happens.
Another example of the culture change in this country goes back to the last depression in 1929. Yea, folks went hungry in the cities and times were hard but, most people back then were from an agricultural back ground and knew how to take care of themselves, i.e. common sense. Can you imagine what this present culture would do in such an event. Most can't even check their own oil in their auto, much less raise a small garden.
In the last 12 years I have been in all of the lower 48 states and have met a wide range of people. Up until 6 months ago I went to Chicago twice a week for the last 6 years. I got to know the people in that office pretty well, and learned about their knowledge of getting by, and they mine. None of the 7 men in that office had ever fired a weapon of any kind. Only one or two had every held one in their hand. I asked them what they would do in an emergency. Call 911 unanimosly. Beside the above mentioned skill I held they were fasinated that other departments in the past had called me as a tracker, on manhunts, that I could hunt, kill, and process game. They thought it was TV stuff. They had never smelled horse poop, butchered a calf, hog. or deer, and many were disgusted that I could do such a thing.
So with these examples of our present society in mind. Do I believe 4 rag heads with box cutters and an agressive attitude could hold off a plane load of businessmen form New York for 20 or 30 minutes. Hell yes I do. They were standing around waiting on someone else to do something. They just waited to long, and I am not sure, they knew the terrorists intentions other than taking control of the plane.
As for what you would have done, only you can answer. As for me? I would have done, what I have done in the past and most of my life. I would have tried their butts out. I (as an officer) have experienced the knife, club, and gun thing, and responded immediately. Most won't. They had rather talk, and hope that somone else will do something. JMOE.
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Dee only thing you should look at the so called passenger manifest... There were several military and other federal agencies represented in the passengers. So no I do not think that they would have stood by and let it happen. JMHO
Matt
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Well, on that issue, I must concede as I have no info on passenger manifest. However, I believe in most cases my argument is valid, although know one knows except the ones on board, and they aren't saying.
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http://911review.org/Sept11Wiki/PassengerList.shtml
give this site a look
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Matt, I haven't had time to look at all the passenger manifests however, Flight 11 manifest listed a range of passengers, ranging from business execets, to retired balarina, to actresses, mothers, fathers, to clergy, to flight attendants and pilots. I saw no evidence of one single warrior on board, with the exception of the terrorists. I will look at the other flight manifests when I can but, Flight 11 supports my experiences observing todays society from a police officer's point of view (retired), and a civilian enter-acting with todays mindset in people.
TV shows people doing heroic things, during times of stress, but they never show the mulitude standing just out of camera range WATCHING.
This is a very material world we live in today, and until this entire country has been brought to its knees, either by natural disaster, or terrorist attack, or economic disaster, people will continue to sink into apathy, and the Let Someone Else Handle It Attitude. If you will think about many of these professions on board Flight 11, they were either accustomed to being served, and cattered to, or were service oriented toward others. No warriors.
And once again most hi-jackings end in landing somewhere and negoations, and release of everyone. Perhaps that's what they were thinking.
Once again also, my opinion.
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Be advised, I am not defending the goverment. I am just making an observation of the epidemic proportions of apathy that plague the American people. Many people 35 and younger don't even vote. I believe that 4 arabs with box cutters could take over an airplane full of businessmen and women. I don't believe 4 arabs with box cutters could take over a cowboy bar in North Central Texas. If the men didn't get'em, the women would.
I also believe the goverment is capable of anything, to further their own cause which may or may not be to the American people's best interest.
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I also believe the goverment is capable of anything, to further their own cause which may or may not be to the American people's best interest.
Well that is the first step... Now if we can just get you some time freed up to watch a few hour long videos I think that you would see a different view on the matter.
Matt
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No I haven't seen it. What I think you guys are trying to do is convert someone whom has been un-trusting of the goverment for many years. I am not saying your theories are wrong, and I am not saying that the goverment did not let it happen, or make it happen. I am saying I don't know, and it could have happened any number of ways.
It's like gun control. It WILL eventually happen on a larger more strict scale. I.E. all out gun confiscation. Most will comply, a few will have the nerve to bury or hide their guns. Some will do neither.
My mind on that issue has been made up for many years. I am not a youngster. To put it the way I have explained to others in my Texas mind set is this; If they ride up on my porch and I let'em take my guns, they also took my ability to strongly disagree, and they'll be back on my porch again, wantin somethin else.
I am not saying that either of you are fruit cakes for you ideas, on this issue. I am saying that any or all of it is probably out of our control, and preparation for furture events seems more valuable, although at times the discussion is interesting, and could have some value. I think we all know that any ligitimate investigation of goverment wrong doing is not going to happen. JMHO
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Roosevelt was a hypocrit then.
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I was not aware she carried. Possibly though because I understand she was queer, and had it in the case of a jealous husband, or father. Who knows? ;D
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Matt/TM7 - What role does Sandy Berger play in this coming from the Clinton Administration (see http://www.washtimes.com/national/20070124-121614-2703r.htm)? I hope the link works. Anyways, it's an article about Republican Congressmen wanting the Justice Dept to give Berger a polygraph test. I am approaching this with an open mind. I have watched two of the videos and it's pretty scary thinking the Gov't could do this but I also believe anything is possible. I would surmise that Berger stole articles from the Archives that would show inaction on Clinton's part. Is the Administration using this as a smoke screen, a shell game? ???
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NH was a Republican state until the last election. The Senators are Republican but the new Congressmen upset the Republican incumbents. That said, I haven't seen any push to open inquiries into 9-11, unless of course I completely missed it. I am usually pretty good about following news events but that doesn't mean I couldn't miss something. It may take a little time for the newly elected Democrats to get something moving. Vermont is a liberal state and Burlington's mayor is on board with Mayors Bloomberg (NYC) and Menino (Boston) to pass gun control legislation just to give you an idea of his mindset.
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This is a good link to check out for quite a few things:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/quickindex/
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okay... this much bothers me, it seems to affirm the expendability of those other than the elitists and their errand boys
healthcare for vets fighting the wars, and the cops and firefighters that got extreme asbestos exposure (and whatever other particulates)
the families of vets who die get paid lots of money, so did the families of the 9/11 people. the vets have huge life insurance, what about the random people's families getting paid though... it's all hush money. the government doesn't seem to care about broken men dying from containing the situation but DOES care about shutting up the tearful mothers.
I'd rather get shot in my face than stabbed in my back... it looks like the government obliged me!