Graybeard Outdoors (GBO Reloaded)
Handgun Forums => Sig Handguns => Topic started by: Lee Robinson on November 22, 2006, 08:39:00 AM
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I am really frustrated with this gun. Never have I been disapointed with a gun until now...and maybe I am venting, maybe I am looking for help, or maybe considering selling the gun and going back to wheel guns...I really don't know what I want to do right now, but after about 250 rounds through my Sig P220 ST I have had about 5 jams. This includes round nose jacketted bullets (factory "Independence" ammo) and also 230 gr Federal Hydrashock ammo. I have had both stove pipes and feeding jams.
A lot of people that are familiar with sig say they have a 2000 round "break in" period...but my thoughts are so what I havehad about 5 jams already. 2000 rounds is about $1000 worth of ammo. I talked to Sig about it and they said reloading is cheaper but it would void my warantee. OK...then that really isn't a solution IMO.
Then there is the concept that I may be "limp wristing it" out of habit because I primarily used to shooting heavy loads in heavy wheel guns (44 mag, heavy 45LC), and my thoughts are...what am I supposed to do with a "defense gun" should I ever need it when the criminal jumps out...take the time to make sure "I am gripping the gun right" and ask the criminal to be on stand by while I check my grip?
Anyway, unhappy with my sig. Any comments.
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My 220 doesn't like semi wadcutters but feeds other bullets okay. I can't see what 2000 rounds is going to do to improve it feeding if it doesn't feed hard ball or HydraShok. If it were mine I'd call Sig and talk to them about warranty repairs.
Good luck.
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Strange. I have fires thousands of rounds through several different Sigs, never had a jam problem with any of them. If I were a betting man, I would bet that the proble is in your magazines. Have you tried different mags yet? If not you might try that before taking other measures. You may also need to do a little twiking on the magazine follower to allow the bullet to enter the chamber at the proper angle.
If youm correct the problem, please let us know what you did.
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I have fired a boat load of taxpayper purchased Hydroashock ammo in a 220 without a problem. Some low price ammo can also cause problems. Ammunition produced by the big three normally does not cause problems.
I have found that a couple drops on the rails of break-free after 400 or 500 rounds keeps things running soomth in combat competition.
I have to agree with rockbilly, it sounds like a magazine problem. After market magazines can be a problem. And failure to clean magazines can result in feeding problems.
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The mags are factory. I bought it new and it came with two. That being the case, do you still think it would be the mags because if so I will number them 1 and 2 and see if the jams repeat themselves if it is only happening with one of the mags.
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Sig mags are dependable but a bad one comes along every once and a while. Spring tension, and damage to the lips from dropping the mag doing combat drills can create problems. Numbering them is a great way of sorting out a problem. After obtaining and testing new mags for reliability, I had others sit aside for qualilfication and practice. In fact it is not a bad idea to paint bad one red and use it for practicing clearing a jam.
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Never dropped a mag.
The springs in the mags are very strong and in fact strong enough that they can be somewhat difficult to load, even after being fully loaded for some time. Only recently did I unload my "spare" to half capacity...but honestly I don't think it got any looser in a years time. Needless to say, I don't shoot the sig a lot as I did it enough to get very familiar with its operation...but it isn't a gun I consider picking up for "fun shooting." But I have kept it very clean and "ready for action." I bought the sig as a personal and home protection gun back during Katrina (hurricane) as people were acting kind of nutty down here for a while. I don't know if I have shot it 250 or 350 times...but I do know I have had enough jams that it is frustrating and makes me doubt the reliability of the gun. I like wheel guns for plinking, accuracy, and for hunting and love my newest revolver the best of all...a Freedom Arms model 97 in 45 LC. My next favorite was a S & W 629 with a 5" barrel...as it was VERY accurate and would shoot very tight groups (consistently hitting a coke can) with iron sights and factory Federal Classic Hunting ammo even at a 100 yards if you sand bagged it.
I am considering trading in the sig for a 1911 of some type, as its purpose was concelled carry...and unless I am able to "solve" the jamming issues I am seeing right now after picking it back up...it will be for sell.
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I was not totally happy when we had to switch over from wheelguns to autoloaders. But management did the right thing. We recieved intensify two days of training, and we fired over 500 rounds in our new autoloaders. The goal was to break each autoloader in with five hundred rounds and achieve other train objectives. During this break-in period I did not clean my Sig, but I did put a couple of drops of Breakfree on the rails and work the slide to spread the lube at the cleaning table.
You become a believe when you are on a line with 40-50 others shoting Sigs and there are only a couple of problems. A couple of LEO's were shooting bulk ammuntion from a small volume firm. It smoked a lot and left a lot of residue. I am not knocking the small guy because another small supplier ammuntion function without any problems. At the end of the day the guys having problems could not give their remaining ammo away.
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LeeR.: What might you be willing to let your SIG P200 go for if you cannot resolve thr feeding problem?
I would be interested in knowing if money and trade items interests you.
I'll check bagk here to see if you respond.
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I just took it to the store that I bought it from and put in on consignment for sell. I don't want to deal with it anymore. I agreed to let them try to sell it by leaving it there for a minimum of 2 weeks unless I pay $25 for picking it back up before two weeks pass.
I have the P220ST, two holsters, and two clips. I want $775 for it all.
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I was considering that model for myself-----but the more I've been looking----seems SIG's QC has gone down as of late. Maybe I'll go Glock instead.
I like the gun---just not sure if I'm willing to take a $900 chance---in my book, a gun costing that much---BETTER be perfect out of the box---no break-in----no hassles-------sending a gun back to the manufacturor is a HUGE hassle. Not to mention the high cost of UPS shipping.
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I had a hard time buying the magizine problem being I was getting BOTH stove pipes and feeding issues. Yes, a mag could cause feeding problems, but how could it cause stove pipes? I had a lack of faith in this as a solution. That is why I took it to the store to sell it as I want to be confident in KNOWING the gun is realiable.
After talking to a local gun enthusist, his thoughts were the factory may have put a slide/recoil spring that was too stiff in the gun and therefore preventing the slide from coming back far enough to 1. clear the empty round reliably and 2. get enough momentum when coming back forward to reliably chamber the next round.
I wonder if this could be the solution...and if two weeks pass by I will contact the factory a second time and see what their thoughts are on this posibility.
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I am sure you are discusted with the gun at this point, but if it does come home, package it up and ship it back to Sig, first call customer service and get a name, explain the problem, also type up a description of the problem and include it in the package. I am willing to bet Sig will make it "right."
I have owned at least 12 Sigs, some bought new, some used, I never had a BAD one. I did experience some small problems that I was able to fix myself, so I am sold on them, I am sure you will be too once you experience qwning a good one.
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Then there is the concept that I may be "limp wristing it" out of habit......
couple that with inadequate initial cleaning and/or improper lube and you've a "sure fire" jam-O-matic.
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The gun has always been clean when fired. In fact, if anything I would be guilty of overcleaning being I clean a gun after every shooting sesson.
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Rockbilly, I just don't see any reason on why I should have to pay to ship a gun that I am not really interested in anymore to a manufacturer when it has been like this since day one. When I talked to them, I honestly expected better service over the phone...but if I get the gun back in a few weeks, I will talk to them again.
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I hope you can get your problems with Sig worked out. I am not saying you don't have a bad gun, but feel you would be totally satisfyed with a fully functional Sig. Keep us posted on how the problem is resolved.
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Hummm--I am not a clean freak like most.
I may clean it after 2000 rounds.
Blessings
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couple that with inadequate initial cleaning and/or improper lube and you've a "sure fire" jam-O-matic.
Pay attention Will, if you don't INITIALLY get the packing grease/cosmoline or whatever it's called out of it and lube it with an appropriate amount of an appropriate lube, you aren't going to get 200 rounds through it much less 2000. (Please don't ask me how I know this.) ::)
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Picked the gun back up today. Haven't decided what I want to do yet. I may trade it for something. No hurry, so until I do I may "break it in" a little more as well.
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I'm inclined to think you're limp wristing the gun. If the gun is trying to move backwards while cycling it will cause the exact symptoms you describe. I would let somebody else shoot the gun and see if the problem persists. If it does I would have SIG look at it.
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My experiences, my read experiences, testimonials of experiences, history of Sig do not confirm that quality has declined or that Sig is a bad gun---This one may be---but if you will send it too me I will sure find out for you. ;)
Blessings
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Maybe...I wouldn't be limp wristing it, but could be "limp elbowing" it...LOL. I don't know. I am used to revolvers and mostly heavy caliber and in gerneral, I don't practice stiff arm shooting but I do practice firm grip and firm wrist...and with moderately heavy caliber revolvers (44 mag loaded hot and more recently the light frame Freedom Arms model 97 gun in 45 LC loaded to 270 grains at 1200 fps in a gun that was only 37 oz.) My point is...I have come to learn how to handle heavy recoil of stiff revolvers without any problem so I can shoot "all day" simply by although firm gripping the guns I also let the recoil do its thing instead of taking a beating. I have never shot a revolver (to date) in which recoil bothered me...and maybe it is because I don't force it. So, perhaps it is posible that was the "down fall" of the Sig for me. Again...I don't know.
Final result for me was to trade the gun in. I did this yesterday towards credit of the purchase of two definsive revolvers (one for me and one for my wife...and my wife probably got the better end of the deal...LOL). Got two sub 357 revolvers one LadySmith 357 (to shoot 38) and one Ruger SP101 (for me to carry). I also looked at a Colt double action that was simply incredible (locked up like a vise and phenomenal trigger with zero creep...that I think was probably worked on but they claimed it to be a "new gun" but an old model kept in storage) and would have taken it if it was a 357 but it was a 3" .38 and the end of the outside of the barrel had very sharp edges which I thought might be uncomfortable in CC.
Regardless...I didn't do bad on the deal. I got $200 less than I paid for it new, but I kept the locking box and the knife it came with and the guns I took home were reasonably priced. Both the S & W and the Ruger locked up very tight (as tight as any I have seen doing a lot of shoping to find these two) and the S & W has a great trigger as well (the S & W trigger indeed was very nice and with no creep like the Colt).
(http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/162414_large.jpg)
The Ruger trigger is heavy pull and not as nice...but for a carry gun I got the double action only with the "hammerless" type version (although the hammer cylces you can't pull it back for single action shooting)....and for carry it looks to be well built, durable, safe carry design. Good enough. And accuracy (from shooting this morning) is far better than I expected from a 2 and 1/4" inch barrel shooting very reasonable groups from 20 yards with fixed sights. For its size, it is a heavy framed gun, with a heavy trigger that wasn't the smoothest trigger in the world...but it seems durable, easy to carry, accurate, locked up very tight, and pack enough punch...and generally like it will fit MY NEEDS very well being "slicked" (no sharp corners) in design for CC.
(http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/images/Products/50L.jpg)
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I'm glad you are pleased with your choices.
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I bought a SIG 220 a few weeks ago. Took it to the range, and it failed to extract 4 times in 500 rounds fired.
The next day, I shoot it in an IDPA match (about 125 rds) and it failed to extract twice. Took it to the range after the match, and it failed to extract 2 times in 275 rounds. That's 8 failures in 900 rounds. I used Windchester 230 grain FMJ ammo exclusively.
By comparsion, my Browning Hi-Power (9mm) has jammed (stove-piped) or failed to extract 4 times in 6,000+ rounds.
SIG 220 -- a totally unreliable firearm!
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Based on your experience with that pistol I would agree with that one.
I have no such experiences with either of mine.
Contact Sig and send it back. It can be corrected.
Blessings
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Lee,
Where are you located? The reason I ask is this...I bought a 220St with the rail recently that was used. They told me that the fellow that traded it in got two revolvers in return. I bought the gun at Van's over in Brandon, MS. Was this your gun by chance? Just curious. I've only shot the pistol around 250-300 times so far but I've experienced no failures of any type. Accuracy on the one that I bought is astounding. If it was yours though, it didn't have a box or papers or any holsters. So, did I do my usual and happen upon an omened pistol ;D Let me know, I'm curious now. Thanks. Glenn
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It sounds like it was mine, but I don't understand why you didn't get the two hulsters.
BTW, the gun indeed was accurate for me even though not reliable for me. Hopefully, the reliability issues are simply a matter of my style of shooting/grip and not something that will show up for you.
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I was am a factory trained SIG armorer, have been for years...but sadly have had Glocks shoved so far down my throat I don't have a need for SIGs anymore. In my time as an armorer & when I COULD carry SIGs I can tell you I saw problems, same as any pistol maker. I carried the first 226 for a major west coast agency......jammed every shot. This was the first I heard of this "limp wristing" crap. This issue was a defective recoil spring; instant fix. Shot thousands through the gun until I moved on and sold it. Thousands through a 230, then carried a 220 and thousands through that. Never a single jam with either. HOWEVER, did witness a number of cops all start jamming on a hot afternoon after a day of shooting. This was where the limp wristing phenomena appeared, all with small guys and women..... I think this limp wristing thing takes way more blame than it can cause. Only other failure I saw was a uniform who got into a shootout with a bank robber......bad guy pulled a Browning hi-power, cop popped him with a hydroshock.....thru the elbow into the body with first shot, then gun misfired!!!! Badguy dropped, gun hand non-functional or the cop would be toast. Turns out he'd used the gun for YEARS and NEVER did any updates. Inside your grips are your "piano wire" looking springs, one of which returns the trigger........this broke. If you have a SIG, ALL your springs must be replaced on a maintenance cycle.....for us it was 5 years with about 5-7 thou thru a gun. If SIG isn't telling you this or you can't find it in print (I am out of the game and have been for a bit) then go find a police armorer locally and ask him. Springs are cheap, I used to be able to do a complete 226/220 in under 5 minutes. If you are not prepared to accept this type of maintenance buy something else.
If you have a malfunctioning SIG and don't want to pay shipping, try to find a police armorer and see if they'll help you. Glocks, SIGs, Berettas, etc., there is only so much that can go wrong and a basic armorer will likely figure it out.
Glockin' it cuz I have to...........
RR
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I have not personally experienced any problems with Sigs I have owned over the years, or the two I currently own. I have seen some problems with Sigs, just like any other pistol. It just goes to prove than anything mechanical can, and will, fail. There is no guarantee than any of the firearms any of us own will fire the next time we pull the trigger.
Savage
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RogueRam: I worked for an agency that service the Sig's on a regard bases. Never had a problem before or after. Glock must have cut a big deal because the Sigs are gone.
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I bought a brand new browning hi power about 2 years ago and from the beginning I had jams, action would stay open after a few rounds and brutal hammer bite. Had the gun examined by a 2 gun smiths; one said it was limp wrist, the other said to change ammo!!! I changed magazines, oiled-didn't oil, tried different ammo etc. Finally, I returned the it to Browning. Had it back in a few weeks and the gun performed great. Browning put on the repair order "minor adjustment". I called Browning and no one seemed to recall exactly what was done to the gun. Who cares. I've never had a problem since.
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Hey Mark.
I have a 220 as well that does not like the aluminum cases. will work fine with the brass stuff as well as my reloads but the book says don't use Al cases. Try a box of Win USA 230 grain or Remington UMC Ball ammo and if it doesn't work perfect I'll offer to buy the gun from you.
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A few years ago I purchased 1000 rounds of PMP 220gr ball at the SHOT Show in Las Vegas for $150 have been using it without any problems along with speer & federal.I lube my handguns with Militec 1.An ex marine corps armorer I met in the cop shop where I worked told me to never fire any lead ammo in the Sig . I reload ammo with a Dillon RL550B.At a Raahauges Shooting Sports Fair in Norco,CA I asked Jerry Miculek who supplied his ammo,he told me he has banks of Dillon progressive reloaders & the sponsors provide Bullseye,Bullets,Primers & Brass that he reloads, the comp shooters told me 98% of competative shooters reload with Dillon machines.
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Wow! It sounds like you have a real problem with this Sig 220, must be a "lemon". I'd get rid of it if I were you, I'll give you $250. for it sight unseen! What do you think?
Seriously though, it sounds like a operator problem. If you have only shoot "wheelguns" its no wonder you might be "limpwristing". It took me 3-400 rounds to make the transition from a Colt Python to a Kimber 1911 and be able to hit anything. Now after thousands of rounds I'd never go back to a revolver. Good luck!
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User "Savage " is dead on. Statements like " Sigs are totally unreliable!" are just plain wrong! No mater what firearm you purchase for defense, needs to be proved, from a 250 dollar Kel tech to a 2500 dollar Kimber, no exceptions. Cheap guns can work, expensive guns can fail. In every model there are good ones and bad ones. Some that shine and others are just plain boat anchors. Shoot them alot and work out the bugs, Some just won't make it! And I mean individual guns and not a Manufacturer! Scientist take large samples for their research for a reason. I love my Sig, I have some Rugers that also work great. I am currently working on a AR 180b Problem child. I will not slam all AR 180's because of this one.
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Cheap guns can work and expensive guns fail.................well said, I have a Polish p-64 9x18 Mak that has never missed a beat with well over 500 rounds put through it. I had a pair or Kimbers that was lucky to fire a half dozen rounds without a feed problem or a stovepipe. Needless to say, dem puppies have new homes.
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I have an old European 220 beveled slide that have shot tens of thousands of rounds through and any problem that I ever had was ammo or shooter I also have a 220 I bought new in 92 and have shot thousands of rounds through with the same result mostly the cheap ammo provided for annual qualification or a hot tired long day in July leading to poor grip probably less than ten jams in all these years BUT some guns dont fit some people you have to find what you handle and are confident and competent with my life I trust to sig 220 completely
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The issues i've seen regarding sigs is with the 220's new internal extactor. Unlike a 1911, I would only buy a 220 with an external extractor. Also a spring kit should be standard maintenance in keeping that sig running like a rolex.
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I should have updated this thread.
I have two kimber 1911s (one for about a year, the other for about 2 years) and have no problems. I suspect either I just had a fluke of Sig, or it just wasn't for me. No biggie. I'm loving the Kimbers.
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I carry a Sig and I've been through many Sig schools. These are wet guns. You need allot of oil on the slide rails, just about any place you see the wear marks of steel on steel. On the other hand, NH State Police bought P220s a couple of years ago and had huge problems with them and handed them back in and got the M&P 45 auto. Buddy of mine is a trooper and he only had the gun for a little over a year before they got rid of them. I've always had good luck with my Sigs; P228, P226, P229, P232.
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My State Police Agency went to Sig P220s after an agent put 17 ! 9mm Hydr-shoks in a bad guy and a single .45 rd put him down. Our shooter-error rate and malfunction rate declined dramatically! (We had Glock 17s peviously) During the 7-8 yrs. we carried the P220s they recalled ALL the blue steel mags (cracking along the back side of lips) and replaced them with SS mags. Thus you may have a mag problem as some suggested. We completely overhauled all the weapons after 7 yrs. then due t change in administration went to Glock 22s. Many agents bought their P220s and still carry and qualify w/o problems. We don't have the "limp-wristing" issue so common with the Glock 17 with the 22s, but proper grip and weapon control is vital to make the phsyics work! Check your mags and your grip. Hogue Rubber grips are wonderful things. Good luck.
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all guns ,,take a getting to know period of time..
ive owned several autoloaders that were dependable..sig p225 being my favorite but one of the the best was a cheap old titan 25 cal..
that said ..i settled on a quality wheel gun[s&w 60]..it still takes ,,getting to know it,, to hit what you aiming at..
but its gonna go bang when i pull the trigger until its empty..this assuming the rnds in it,, will go bang, in the first place..slim
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a revolver is the only defense gun for me.
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I bought a brand new browning hi power about 2 years ago and from the beginning I had jams, action would stay open after a few rounds and brutal hammer bite. Had the gun examined by a 2 gun smiths; one said it was limp wrist, the other said to change ammo!!! I changed magazines, oiled-didn't oil, tried different ammo etc. Finally, I returned the it to Browning. Had it back in a few weeks and the gun performed great. Browning put on the repair order "minor adjustment". I called Browning and no one seemed to recall exactly what was done to the gun. Who cares. I've never had a problem since.
probably because you subconiously started holding it tighter.
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Threads like this always bring out the El-Cheapo gun supporters. LOL
Sig is one of the top gun makers out there, if you do like them don't buy them, If there is a problem with his 220, Sig will fix or replace it. Why come on here a bash them? Sounds like a poor cleaning job or crap ammo. Don't blame the Gun.
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Sigs are quality firearms and generally function great, however just as with anything mechanical they do produce some with problems. I have seen a Sig come out of the box with a feed ramp that looked like a file, I doubt the gun would have fed anything but the determining factor was that Sig made the gun right. One gun doesn't make or break a manufacturer, you must look at how the majority of their products funtion. It is just like the old argument about reliability between the revolver and semi-auto, the only stoppage I have ever had that could not be cleared by an immediate action drill was with a revolver but that doesn't make revolvers unreliable.
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FYI, for the record...
I do NOT hold a grudge against Sig in anyway, shape, or form. Their reputation of excellence is superb. If the gun had a problem or not, it just wasn't for me...so I moved on. I don't regret it at all. They are obviously a great company. But, being happy with my Kimbers it is unlikely that I would buy another Sig...but I certainly have no hard feelings towards them.
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While this may not help you at all... I don't remember any jams with my P220 at all.
If you are having that much trouble, you should call SIG and get them to take a look at it.
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I have only had one sig that didn't work perfect . I never shot it , got it to carry it was a 9 mm . A few days later came across a deal on the same gun in 40 and got it . Kept the 9 several years and traded it back to the dealer. He sold it the same day . A few weeks later it came back with many problems . He was a sig dealer and sent it to the factory . Seems the cop who was the first owner and the one before me had done a botched action job.
If your gun was preowned maybe it could be in need of new springs and a couple parts . Maybe just adjusting .
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NH State Police bought P220 a few years ago for duty guns. They had so many problems they gave the guns back and bought S&W M&P 45. Mass State Police switched from P226 to P226 DAK and they ran into a huge problem and had to ship them back, (Sig initially blamed the agency, but then found a part was not up to specs and it had to be replaced.)
I carry a Sig every day. Yes it has jammed on me, but it was the exception not the rule. I love my P229. I believe Sig got too busy with the Gov. contracts and the product has suffered. They have tripled the staff at the Exeter plant in the last few years. Sig customer service can't compare with S&W or Ruger. Sig tends to nickle and dime you on the little stuff. Sig is still a top of the line firearm, to hell and back they say. Good luck and I hope it works out for you.
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This is an interesting thread I have the whole stable of Sig's
(1)220
(3) 226
(1) 228
(2) 229
(1) 2340
(1)Sig Pro
(2) GSR
And a Blaser Rifle and never had an issue with any of them all great guns I carried the 226 for 6 years with no issues it saved my life on more than one occasion and it was a back up to a .45 MEU Pistol
Sorry to here of your troubles better luck with your next Sig.
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RE: my earlier post- AL State Trooper SWAT at one time carried Sig P220s using 8rd mags, They found these mags to be unreliable and switched. to 7 rd mags, as issued with the weapon. They now carry Glocks-Go Figure. Murpheys Law- Your gun is made by the lowest bidder!
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I suggest using the old mags . Not the ones that expend all the all the way across the top. The original only went about 1\2 the way across the top
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This is an old thread but since others are still posting......I purchased a like new SIG 220 a few months ago, it has the aggravating habit of not going completely into battery from time to time. It takes a hard rap on the back of the slide to get it to close the last 3/4" or so. I think my problem is the extractor tension being too tight, it feeds even ball with a "jerky" feel. Mine is a German made, stamped slide internal extractor model. I wonder what it's gonna end up costing me to get it working properly, that it doesn't run 100% is probably why the guy I bought it from parted with it.
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This is an old thread but since others are still posting......I purchased a like new SIG 220 a few months ago, it has the aggravating habit of not going completely into battery from time to time. It takes a hard rap on the back of the slide to get it to close the last 3/4" or so. I think my problem is the extractor tension being too tight, it feeds even ball with a "jerky" feel. Mine is a German made, stamped slide internal extractor model. I wonder what it's gonna end up costing me to get it working properly, that it doesn't run 100% is probably why the guy I bought it from parted with it.
Even though it is a German gun call Sig in NH and they will help you.
Last thing they want is unhappy customers.
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btt