Graybeard Outdoors (GBO Reloaded)
Ammo/Hand Loading Forums => Wildcat Cartridge Discussion => Topic started by: Jack Ryan on May 28, 2007, 10:11:10 PM
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Given a case length of no more than 1.625 and a minimum bullet diameter of .357...
Any on got any ideas?
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35 BR. if you've got a standard bolt face. 350 Rem mag with the body shortened to make the right length if you've got a magnum bolt. Either one'll knock 'em dead.
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I would try a 44 magnum, in a rifle its good to maybe 125-150 yards. I have a older Ruger carbine in 44 mag. and like it alot.
jedman
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No need for a wildcat, 357 Rem Maximum...
(http://www.stevespages.com/jpg/cd357remingtonmaximum.jpg)
or .45 Colt..
(http://www.stevespages.com/jpg/cd45colt.jpg)
or 445 Supermag...
(http://www.stevespages.com/jpg/cd445supermagnum.jpg)
If ya gotta have a wildcat, 357/44 Bain/Davis
(http://www.stevespages.com/jpg/cd35744baindavis.jpg)
Or maybe a 357/445 Supermag wildcat!! ;D
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I wonder at the OP's question considering the extremely firm stand the state of Indiana has historically taken against the use of rifles for deer. Handguns are currently allowed, the minimum caliber is .243 and the minimum case length is 1.16". What are you trying to accomplish here?
.
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A little backround.
I already own a couple 44 mags revolvers, a 45-70 NEF and I've got dies for them and for 357.
I'm just sort of shopping some ideas and the 357 maxim was first to come to mind but the 500S&W is also the exact maximum lenght allowed. Sort of made me wonder what a 357 would do out of a 500 cartridge. Might get that up around 2500fps or a little more out of a rifle barrel.
I like the NEF for the barrel program but their 44 mag barrels are over bored and I don't like the idea of keeping track of two sets of 44 mag amo. One fit's pistols and one for the rifle. I wouldn't want a tight one getting in my 629 by accident. A 35 remington is a heck of around so to duplicate that with a little shorter and a little fatter case might be a pretty hot item.
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Current production 44mag Handis aren't as overbore as previous barrels were, those bought since the first of the year have slugged at .430" and shoot 2moa with jacketed bullets.
Tim
On May 22, the Indiana Natural Resources Commission approved an administrative rule making rifles suited for pistol cartridges legal hunting tools. The deer firearms season will run from Nov. 17 to Dec. 2 and allow all rifles, muzzleloaders, shotguns and pistols of proscribed calibers as legal firearms....
Not every rifle capable of shooting short case cartridges will be legal. Indiana's legal deer hunting rifles must meet three criteria:
a) Fire a bullet that is three hundred fifty seven thousands of an inch (.357) in diameter or larger;
b) Have a minimum case length of one and sixteen hundredths (1.16) inches;
c) Have a maximum case length of one and six hundred twenty five thousandths (1.625) inches.
To give broader examples of what's what and what's not, here are some — but not all— IDNR approved cartridges: .357 Magnum, .38-40 Winchester, .41 Magnum, .41 Special, .44 Special, .44-40 Winchester, .45 Colt, .454 Casull, .480 Ruger, .475 Linebaugh, .50 Action Express and .500 Smith & Wesson.
http://www.courierpress.com/news/2007/may/27/indiana-plans-rifle-season-using-cowboy/
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Yes, I've read that a couple or three times.
That 475 Linebaugh made from cutting the 45-70 down to 1.5 looks interesting. It could be left at 1.62 and then just ream the chamber a little deeper.
I think I can already get 2 inch groups at a 100 yards with a 12 guage shot gun. The only advantage there would be if I could produce the ammo cheaper. Aren't they doing better thatn that with the 357 maximum barrels?
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Yes, I've read that a couple or three times.
I didn't put it there for you, I figured you already knew it! ;D I saw the proposal months ago, there also was a post about it in the NEF forum in January.
The 357 Mag barrels have always been good shooters, they don't make a 357 Max any more. I had my 357 mag>max barrel rechambered to 35 Remington, shoots moa just like it did as a mag and a max which is what is was rechambered to before the 35 Rem.
The 45 Colt Carbine would be another good choice, see my reply to your post on the .500. ;)
Tim
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Here's some of the 44mag reports.
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,115216.msg1098367484.html#msg1098367484
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,114906.msg1098365311.html#msg1098365311
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If you like the idea of a cut down 45-70 to start with, I think you could take a 350 Rem. mag sizing die and cut ( grind ) off the bottom of the die until you reached the point where you are at .501 to .503 dia. and size the 45-70 case. It would be a llittle under 1.625 in length and you can use a standard 350 mag reamer to cut the chamber until it works with your sample casings. With .357 or .358 bullets you have would a wildcat that should be good for deer and larger game.
I hope that gives you a idea ? jedman
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i read the rules they say that the rifle used has to use a round that was made for a handgun 357/44s and ect. wile the 35/45-70 and others are chambered in handguns they were made for rifles.u might get by with cutting down a 45-70 but i would check first not worth it when u have the 44mag /45long colt plenty of range for indiana
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480 ruger?
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i went with a handi in 500 S&W i can ALWAYS load down youth stock(i am a shorty) 16 oz c&h mercury recoil reducer 400 sxt ( black talon technology)winchesters fact load @ 2100-2200 fps my handload of 325grain Barnes xpb spitzer in starline brass 44.3 grains of LIL-GUN and a benchrest primer @ 2275 fps and i can go to a max load of h-110 and a 350 grain sierra JHC @ 2100 i see no reason i cannot use any of these loads from whitetails to bear
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We had an Indiana Conservation Officer speak before our conservation club membership at our September meeting. He said that although the new center-fire rifle rules for deer hunting were designed for pistol/revolver cartridges that this first year anything that meets the caliber and cases specifications is to be allowed.
I'll be using a sporterized Swiss Vetterli that I converted to center-fire. Modified 348 WIN cases trimmed to a little less than 1.625'' loaded with Lee 310 grain .430'' dia. lead GC bullets. New member........Mike
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;D I will be using a G2 in 357 Maximum with a .358 bore to shoot hornady 180g SSP bullet
Basically a 35REM when loaded right.
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On another forum a guy in Indiana re-barreled a model 70 and chambered it for 35-25wssm. He necked up 25wssm to .358". He is using 200 grain bullets and is getting close to 2500 fps with his fire forming loads. It meets the regs the way I understand it. He got it done in time to kill a doe last weekend.
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I am from indiana and I think this new rule will either get changed to only cartridges that are chambered in pistols or there will be some very interesting wildcats around this state by opening day of next year. I am thinking some type of Super Short wildcat. Its not that I need something other then a 12 gauge to hunt deer but I do like collecting guns and I think this is going to be a way to use some obscure rifle cartridge that otherwise would just punch paper.
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The 357 Max was in a Ruger pistol
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For some odd reason I keep coming back to the .475 Linebaugh Long
as what I want in my rifle to hunt deer with next season.
I wonder if I can use that caliber on my Contender G-2 frame?
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For me in that situation, I would look at the S&W .500 and .460 case's and neck them down to either the .358 or .375 calibers for use with the lighter weight rifle bullets for better BC's. I haven't run any theoretical loads but kinda think they'll do better than traditional pistol bullets giving some increased range. As long as you keep the impact velocities above 16-1800 fps, they should perform nicely, I think.
Dave
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Looks like i will use my Marlin 1895 lever gun in .44 magnum for Indiana's general firearms season this year. It shoots very well and I have no doubt that the Hornady 240 gr. HP rounds are capable of doing their part on the deer.
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Last fall I was reading about a bolt action with a wildcated 25 wssm. I believe it was necked up to 35 caliber. I will see if I can find it. The guy who built lived in Indiana and wanted a bolt action.
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Here is the link:
http://www.reloadbench.com/ubb/Forum28/HTML/000646.html
another option is to neck up 7.62x39 to 35 cal
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What about a chopped .223 case, say 1-1/2" x 8mm? Being a hoosier, I've been thinking the same thoughts, and with good take-off mauser bbls available & surplus 8mm ammo for bullets, it might be a workable (not too costly) idea. Might even feed thru a GI mag. Anyone here done anything similar?
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Maybe the above would be better applied to a heavy, slower, quieter type load. 9mm Win magnum ballistics weren't that impressive, and had a bit more case to use. .44 automag rifle ?
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Why reinvent the wheel, the 357 Max works well for Indiana hunters. ;)
Tim
http://357maximum.com/
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If I wanted to squeeze out the most range out of a " Indiana rifle" and cost wasn't a issue I'd go with a 358wssm. If I wanted to go the cheap route to get the most powerful bigbore I'd slap a 460 S&W barrel on my encore and trim the brass down to 1.625. Of course I'd seat the bullets out far enough to keep the same C.O.A.L. as the original 460, keeping the same powder capacity as the original too. You might not be able to use some of the short bullets but I prefer a 300gr bullet in 452 diameter anyway. Just my thoughts(thank goodness I can hunt with what ever) ;D . Dave
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It's not really a wildcat, but it's also not a very common cartridge, the 458socom. I know some guys where using it in AR platforms because the new regs also say nothing about capacity. I jumped on the 44mag leveraction bandwagon and I haven't looked back. I took a buck last season at 60 yards using a puma 20" 44 and it made me a believer. I like to keep it simple, like the 44mag, but the 458 socom would be a fun one to try out also.
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How about a Mosin Nagant carbine in a shortened 7.62x54 necked up to 35 caliber. I think the magazine could just be modified internally.
Or a shortened 7.62x54 necked up to 44 caliber. That would require a more extensive magazine modification.......and of course new barrels on either conversion.
I figure those conversions would be the easiest to get them to feed properly in a Mosin Nagant. Do a Finn type trigger modification and add a tang safety. It might well make an excellent little carbine. Think Mannlicher Schoenauer or scout rifle...........Mike.
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Ok what about 44 or 357 Auto mag. Originally designed as pistol rounds.
take your basic 30-06, 308, 7X57, or 8X57 case.
cut it to 44 mag lenght and then either seat a 429 bullet or neck to 357 and seat a bullet.
this round may be easier if you have one of the old destroyer carbines and want to add more oomph to the 9mm largo round.
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What about...... a regular old 44 or 357 rifle. You guys are really over complicating a deer rifle lol. H&R, Marlin, Puma, Encore... and whatever else are readily available.
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Actually I've already got a 6 shot Indiana deer rifle. It's a sporterized Swiss Vetterli rifle manufactured in 1872. 310 grain cast bullet at 1365 fps. I really like the rifle and the ballistics will suffice.
Still I've bought a lot of milsurp rifles in the past as platforms for sporters. And I'd still like to see a nice Mosin Nagant carbine. I have a sporterized Chinese 53 in a nice Walnut stock that I'm betting would make a great little Indiana deer rifle........Mike
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Why reinvent the wheel, the 357 Max works well for Indiana hunters.
If not a standard .357M, or the .41 or .44mags
Why not keep it simple with the .357 Maxi?
.414 Super
.445 Super, or better yet, the .500S&W already chambered in an NEF,
or a .45C or .444M modified to shoot the .460S&W?
Gotta admit Indiana sounds like they have "game laws" regarding weapons ...... designed to play with a hunter's head! Unless I had a huge or unlimited gun budget - I'd be sure to settle on a "handgun" cartridge I could easily get ammo for (or make) but also in a gun or barrel I knew I could use for several years! ;)
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"You guys are really over complicating a deer rifle!" ::)
Yeah, what Teddy is saying!
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Well I can understand wanting to hunt with a bolt action and there are not to many out there chambered for hangun rounds.
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I have a 1923 BRNO mauser chambered in .45 ACP, how would that do ya? ;D
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Too bad .45 ACP ain't legal for hoosier deer, but is legal for hoosier squirrels, which puts it in the same category as .30-'06. The good news is: The regs are getting more complicated because we're getting more options. In the not too distant past, if you used a gun, it was "rifled slugs only in shotguns only in 10, 12, 16, or 20 ga. only". And some of the old timers remember when there wasn't even a deer season; the last known hoosier whitetail deer having been killed in 1893.