Graybeard Outdoors (GBO Reloaded)
Black Powder Forums => Blackpowder Mortar and Cannon => Topic started by: seacoastartillery on July 06, 2009, 08:18:10 AM
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Vite! Vite! We are running out of time guys. We need to paint the bed in one week. What color should it be? Upon what historical evidence did you base your suggestion? Thanks, all serious suggestions will be considered carefully. Remember please, we are talking about a big French mortar in a national military campaign, The Siege of Antwerp, in 1832.
Thank You!
Mike and Tracy
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If I wake up in the middle of the night and can't sleep because it is so hot up here, I'll research it for you...can you wait? :)
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Why, Blue, White and Red; of course!
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Didn't from sometime in the 18th Century through the 19th Century the French go to a green/olive paint?
this is probably where the U.S. adopted it from with copying the Mtn Howitzer and Napoleon..........
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why not just use tar , turpentine and boiled linseed oil in equal proportions ??
that was the old time way to protect the wood
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I would use an oil finish to show the wood.
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So far, we have found only a couple hours to look into this, but almost all internet sources agree with the authors of the Osprey Series book titles Napoleon's Guns in that up to the 1760s the wood on French artillery carriages, limbers and rolling stock was painted red and the iron hardware, black. This changed to a light blue-grey with black ironwork at the time of the introduction of the Gribeauval system of artillery in 1765. A change was made to a darker, olive-green in 1789 and lasted for at least 80 years until the Franco-Prussian War in 1870. The question now is: What shade of Green was it? Even descriptions of eyewitnesses to Army life or battles of that era are so subjective as to be almost worthless. A scientific study of an actual painted artillery carriage would probably be best, but where would you find that?
The issue of rapid fading of the old, yellow ochre, linseed oil and charcoal paints would be difficult to overcome as well. Unless DD or somebady else finds a real gem, we will have to go with what one contemporary called "dark green with a little yellow mixed in" and we'll call it good enough. At least it won't be totally wrong, like the light blue-grey that we first thought about probably due to seeing the representative French artillery at Yorktown, Virginia brought over in 1780, which belonged to General Rochambeau's French Expeditionary Corps in America from 1780 to 1782 and used to great effect against the British forces led by General Cornwallis.
And so it goes. Many thanks to those who gave some suggestions, particularly to KABAR2. We will study any serious suggestion up to this coming Saturday when we will be painting.
Mike and Tracy
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Paint was probably applied to the bed, but not the platform
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Thanks Douglas. Now we have at least three people who feel that way about platforms sans paint, you, Mike and me.
Tracy
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Purple.
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like the light blue-grey that we first thought about probably due to seeing the representative French artillery at Yorktown, Virginia brought over in 1780, which belonged to General Rochambeau's French Expeditionary Corps in America from 1780 to 1782 and used to great effect against the British forces led by General Cornwallis.
And so it goes. Many thanks to those who gave some suggestions, particularly to KABAR2. We will study any serious suggestion up to this coming Saturday when we will be painting.
Mike and Tracy
Actually the French may have had a mix of French & Spanish guns, they had to be Re-supplied by their Spanish allies after they hit a storm on the way over,
It has been a long time (25 years) since I read about the campaign and this should be taken supposition on my part, but if they had to lighten ship in a storm artillery may have been sacrificed.
I will dig out my books and try to find reference to this, I guess what I am saying is what the National Park Service may research and "what was" may be very different.
You have one more on board as to the platform being left natural, more than likely it was built on site from available materials and not carted across the countryside.
Allen <><
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You have one more on board as to the platform being left natural, more than likely it was built on site from available materials and not carted across the countryside.
Do you know what was done with it after the siege? Did it return to France or lie abandoned at the site?
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Incredible!!! I normally scream for paint!!!!! Here I am on the side of natural wood. I would bet the real ones were little more the linseed oil or creosoted timbers.
The ones at Petersberg National Battlefield under the Mortar weren't even treated, just raw wood.
(http://www.fototime.com/1320C4939260A10/standard.jpg)
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You have one more on board as to the platform being left natural, more than likely it was built on site from available materials and not carted across the countryside.
Do you know what was done with it after the siege? Did it return to France or lie abandoned at the site?
Unfortunately I have not found an after-action report which includes the disposition of the very large and heavy mortar platform required for the monster. I bet Allen is correct about it's construction too. Most likely made there and left there. Some interesting info on what they had to haul to the Citadel bombardment site is included here:
"The experiment having succeeded, it was resolved to bring the mortar into Antwerp, and preparations were made to place it in battery on the covered way of the bastion of the city, between the re-entering place of arms of Montebello and the Malines gate. Eight horses were required to draw the carriage on which it was placed, and eight others to draw the carriage containing the bed. The weight of the empty shells being nearly 1,000 lbs. it is easy to calculate the number of these projectiles that could be moved in any ordinary ammunition wagon. The weight of the bed, which is of timber, is not given in the scale, but it may be taken as at somewhat more than the mortar itself, making altogether about 30,000lbs.; add to this 110 shells for 100 rounds at 1,000 lbs. each, and 110 barrels of 90 lbs. each, and it gives the enormous dead weight of 70 tons, exclusive of gins, triangle, chevalet, carriage, and sundries. The name of Monster-mortar seems to have been well selected, for it is scarcely possible to conceive a more ugly or unwieldy implement. With the exception of the mortar at Moscow, which has thirty-six inches in diameter at the mouth of the cylinder, and was, if ever used, employed for projecting masses of granite, the monster- mortar exceeds any other weapon of the kind hitherto known. The original conception is due to Colonel Paixhans ; it was executed under the direction of Baron Evain, and cast at the Belgian royal foundery at Liege."
Wish I had a more complete answer, George.
Tracy and Mike
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So have you found the right shade of olive/green? is it painted yet?
inquiring minds want to know! The just nosy ones Too!
we need photos of the finished product!!! ;D
does this seem impatient? ::)
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That sounds like the 1800s version of the 800mm railway guns. Big, impressive, scary, and likely not as effective as was hoped. Or, not enough to justify the massive support needed. With the railway guns - a whole battalion, or more, to serve ONE gun? A major general commanding ONE gun?
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That sounds like the 1800s version of the 800mm railway guns. Big, impressive, scary, and likely not as effective as was hoped. Or, not enough to justify the massive support needed. With the railway guns - a whole battalion, or more, to serve ONE gun? A major general commanding ONE gun?
Well fortunately M&T won't need a battalion to service their mortar, by the looks of things just a couple of Major Generals will do ;D
I don't think anyone will be disappointed with their efforts come August & the shoot.
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I don't think anyone will be disappointed with their efforts come August & the shoot.
Yes, some will be disappointed, those who cna't make it... :(
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Allen, have a little faith. But just like fine wine or beer, the ingredients have to be ripe, or in our case made, painted and assembled before they can be called complete. Everything will be completed by July 25th, after all we must allow some time to test it. Without a good thorough test, we could not possibly bring it to Montana and come Hell or Highwater it WILL be on the gunline in Cutbank.
Subdjoe, In all of the cases I have read about, except for this one, you would be right. The tremendous expenditure in material, time and personnel, never could be justified. The Belgians and their French allies, 70,000 strong, basically lucked out with Col. Paixhans big mortar. The very first shell fired against the Dutch forces in the Citadel of Antwerp landed within a few yards of the main powder magazine of that fortress. When they saw volcanic eruption of many cubic meters of soil and the gaping hole and crater where the entryway to the powder magazine had been, they were afraid, very very afraid. This, along with a very persistent fire from close-by breaching batteries, and resolute French infantry massed near the growing breaches, caused the Dutch Army to give up the Citadel after just a few days. In France, this military adventure was called the Ten Days Campaign and it fits that rare nitch in the history of armed conflicts that Col. of Volunteers, Theodore Roosevelt, called, "A Splendid Little War".
Regards,
Tracy and Mike
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OH M&T don't test fire down there, bring it up here to test. Should you break your trailer, it's better you break it up here. Southpaw and I would get his tractor and haul your rig up to his place and fix it for you. You would need to leave thirty or forty pounds of powder so we could test and make sure the welds of the repair hold, then you could come back up and get ...next year. The Montana boys have only your best interest in mind!!!! Yessir we sure do!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Well fortunately M&T won't need a battalion to service their mortar, by the looks of things just a couple of Major Generals will do ;D
I don't think anyone will be disappointed with their efforts come August & the shoot.
Now I'll hav eGilbert & Sullivan running through my head all day.
(walks off muttering: "I am the very model of a modern Major-General
I've information vegetable, animal, and mineral
I know the kings of England, and I quote the fights historical
From Marathon to Waterloo, in order categorical)
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Well fortunately M&T won't need a battalion to service their mortar, by the looks of things just a couple of Major Generals will do ;D
I don't think anyone will be disappointed with their efforts come August & the shoot.
Now I'll hav eGilbert & Sullivan running through my head all day.
(walks off muttering: "I am the very model of a modern Major-General
I've information vegetable, animal, and mineral
I know the kings of England, and I quote the fights historical
From Marathon to Waterloo, in order categorical)
There are far worse things than having G&S run through your head..........
I'll not list them for fear of sending you on another bent.......
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Well fortunately M&T won't need a battalion to service their mortar, ...
But they will - it will also be at 1/6 scale! :D
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Do the Montana boys really have our best interests at heart? I am a pretty trusting person. I always take a man's word for something until his actions prove it not to be worth much. But there is something about this offer that, to use an old west Texas rancher's lingo, smells like you're downwind of a large feedlot. ;D ;D ;D We will test here and let those Montana boys test it under the big blue Montana sky as well. Thanks for your vote of confidence, Allen, we sure do try. Tim, you are correct; if we needed a platoon to help us man this thing, it would only be at 1/6th scale, or, more specifically 2/5th scale for this particular gun.
Hey! Good news today; we found the perfect shade of green with just a hint of olive drab in it. And it's only a tiny fraction of a point away from an interior paint called Paris Green. Talk about a good omen, this has to be the right shade! It's the closest shade to the paint depicted on the cover of Napoleonic Artillery in the Osprey Series of Military books, which meets all verbal criteria we have been able to find. Not everyone will love it, but we are convinced that it is as close as we will find on a beer budget. It's a bit more Forest or Alpine green than some folks will hope for and a little less Olive, but we were NOT looking to duplicate WWII O.D. Green or 1950s Mail Box green for this mortar. It is also flat green rather than glossy or satin or semi-gloss. Any military that used gloss paint for field equipment is not worth two pinches of sour owl s__t in our opinion.
Regards,
Mike and Tracy
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Do the Montana boys really have our best interests at heart? I am a pretty trusting person. I always take a man's word for something until his actions prove it not to be worth much. But there is something about this offer that, to use an old west Texas rancher's lingo, smells like you're downwind of a large feedlot
Regards,
Mike and Tracy
Oh ye of little faith....
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M&T,
I know this is a day late, and a dollar short, because you've already chosen the paint shade you're going to be using, but I've got nothing that would change your minds anyway. A few years ago, and then again when you began this thread, I searched, but never found any valid documentation on how and/or when the U.S. Army Ordnance Dept. came to choose the OD green paint color for the Army's field artillery train. I agree with Allen, and yourselves that its very probable that the U.S. adopted this color from the French model, (it may even be that the OD color formula that we know, was the same as the original French paint) but it remains unproven as far as I know.
You probably know that a Lieutenant Daniel Tyler was sent to France to study the French artillery system in Jan. 1828, and he returned in 1829, bringing back a wealth of information and drawings that he presented to the Ordnance Department; but did he also bring the paint formula for the French shade of green?
These photos are of artillery pieces in the Hotel des Invalides/Musee de l'Armee in Paris, but as you've already said, they can't really be used to prove the original shade of green, because who knows when these coats of paint were applied, and what toll time, and the bleaching effects of the sun have had on the pigments used in the paint. In other words, this is basically an irrelevant post, but what the heck, its raining outside, and I had to occupy my time somehow. :)
BTW, Im looking forward to seeing the assembled, and painted Mortar.
12 pdr Napoleon
(http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n417/BoomJ100/Canon_Valle_de_12_with_carriage_185.jpg)
Limbers, and Napoleon
(http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n417/BoomJ100/Valee_artillery_train.jpg)
Rifled Mountain Gun
(http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n417/BoomJ100/RifledmountaincannonCanondemontagne.jpg)
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had to resize
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Carronader,
Yes, that is a good sized (I don't know if that should be called a bombard, or a mortar, I'll go with mortar) stone mortar, and it sure does have a green tint to it; where is the museum?
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I still think the colors of the French flag - blue white and red.
Maybe silk screened with an image of Charles de Gaul ....
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I still think the colors of the French flag - blue white and red.
Maybe silk screened with an image of Charles de Gaul ....
And on the other side Inspector Clouseau......
(http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/2264/petersellersinspectorcl.jpg)
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Boom J:
You probably know that a Lieutenant Daniel Tyler was sent to France to study the French artillery system in Jan. 1828, and he returned in 1829, bringing back a wealth of information and drawings that he presented to the Ordnance Department; but did he also bring the paint formula for the French shade of green? These photos are of artillery pieces in the Hotel des Invalides/Musee de l'Armee in Paris, but as you've already said, they can't really be used to prove the original shade of green, because who knows when these coats of paint were applied, and what toll time, and the bleaching effects of the sun have had on the pigments used in the paint.
Boom J, We were not aware of this mission to France by Lt. Tyler, another piece of the incredibly complex origin of our ordinance system is revealed. Thank you. Nothing is more unreliable than original, old paint fragments and it and it brings a smile to my face every time I hear words to this effect: "We are so excited at the Institute; we finally have direct evidence as to the exact shade of that 1797 ship's paint. Dr. Perfect and his staff meticulously scraped the modern paint off layer by layer until the original color was revealed!"
The self-importance and extreme puffery displayed by some academics is truly astounding. I would love to ask them only two questions which are: "What reason do you think those 18th century sailors had for re-painting that commercial vessel?" "How about FADE or Deterioration maybe?" Determined the exact color she was painted? Balderdash!!
Tim,,,We certainly have to give you an 'A' for persistence! We are sort of partial to those colors too, in a different order. We were amazed to learn that the colors of the French National flag go all the way back to 1794 and that there is an interesting reason for the precedence of colors in the French Tricolour. There are many, many ideas about the meaning of the colors and precedence, but the one we like the best is simple. Blue and Red are the colors of Paris and represent the country's people, while the color, White represents the Monarchy, specifically the Bourbon Dynasty. Note how they placed the Monarchy between the people so the will of the people could more easily control the Monarchy! Too bad we "commoners" in the U.S. are not having any success in reigning in our own government!!
Regards,
Mike and Tracy
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That green Mortar also is at the Musee.I posted it to show the French liking for green,information was lost when the image didn't send on first try.Am going to Bath and Bristol next week,anybody wanting specific photos or such,let me know and I'll see what I can do,also anybody with must see stuff in Budapest,would you let me know,from what I can see on the net not a lot of interesting stuff over there.(Wife's idea not mine) maybe she's pining for the old days.........damn Ruskie.
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Kabar -- YES!
Putting those two characters together captures much of the emotions and feelings of how we perceive the French. !!! ;D
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...
...the colors of the French National flag go all the way back to 1794 and that there is an interesting reason for the precedence of colors in the French Tricolour. There are many, many ideas about the meaning of the colors and precedence, but the one we like the best is simple. Blue and Red are the colors of Paris and represent the country's people, while the color, White represents the Monarchy, specifically the Bourbon Dynasty. Note how they placed the Monarchy between the people so the will of the people could more easily control the Monarchy!
...
Regards,
Mike and Tracy
THANK YOU! (I"m glad that someone caught it!)
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Way back then the choice of pigment materials was much more limited. Pigments were not synthetic, but made from "real stuff". For instance, Barns were painted red because that was the color of rusted iron. Rust was plentiful, so red was a common color and a cheap paint.
For green, I am taking a stab in the dark here and guessing that copper oxide may have been the pigment used to make green. I can't guess on the amount used however, so the shade (light to dark) would be a total guess.
Rick
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Way back then the choice of pigment materials was much more limited. Pigments were not synthetic, but made from "real stuff". For instance, Barns were painted red because that was the color of rusted iron. Rust was plentiful, so red was a common color and a cheap paint.
For green, I am taking a stab in the dark here and guessing that copper oxide may have been the pigment used to make green. I can't guess on the amount used however, so the shade (light to dark) would be a total guess.
Rick
Yes most paint was derived from metals some of them toxic like lead, and depending on how much of the various elements were added is where you get variation in color,
I don't think formulas were followed Presley as is supposed individual mixed would get it close, if one person was mixing it for years he would keep some consistency in color
but the amount weighed in may have been judgment. these paints were not made in a lab, and measuring equipment was not that elaborate, I wonder how long a person lasted
as a paint mixer with the toxic nature of some of the metals they came in contact with........
M&T are right, labs now a days may come close to an original color, they can figure out what metals and how much are in a sample, but they cannot determine is how these elements
degraded and what elements added themselves to the mix such as salt etc. they may come close but that's as good as it gets, only when original formulas are know can you get really
close. example I cut a section of metal out of a WW II MV the underside had it's original paint undisturbed unbleached by daylight, when compared to modern day paint made from
the original formula it was only a shade off from the original.
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http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_documents/gvt_reports/USNAVY/USNTMJ%20Reports/USNTMJ-200I-0552-0583%20Report%20S-59.pdf
Wrong country, but worth reading.
Rick
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I'm thinking green and red with a thick clear-coat.
Green - The $$$ invested.
Red - Blood.
Clear-coat - Sweat & tears.
Aint gonna be easy to top this project M&T. A ton of work, and I hope all who see the final product will appreciate what you've put into it.
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I spent a bit of time surfing about, looking for how they made paint in the "olden days". Apararently the base most commonly used was proteins derived from spoiled mlk, mixed with lime. Various natural things were added to add color.
If you don't want to mess around with letting milk go bad and formulating it yourself, this company has all the stuff needed to make it in just about any color you want:
http://www.milkpaint.com/ (http://www.milkpaint.com/)
Rick
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First, I forgot to thank Carronader for posting that great looking green Bombard/Mortar. Looking at that huge stone ball, you can just imagine the royal artillery "Stone Ball Chiselers" at the bars every evening in the weeks before the Royal Artillery Train went on campaign. They would be singing popular songs and there would be a great deal of tankards clanking together and yelling of "Here's to OVERTIME, sweet, sweet overtime!"
Thanks to everyone for all those paint suggestions and research info. Rick, I noticed that even the Japanese like "Paris Green" as an ingredient in one of their modern warship paints. Milk paints are also very interesting and go way, way back in their use history. They are great for kid toys too, being non-toxic. The chemical that would probably be my first choice for a prime ingredient would be the cupric oxide that you mentioned. But, alas, it just isn't so. In further reading we were finally able to uncover a paint recipe and it is from an official contemporary source.
In 1789, the first year in which the use of green paint for artillery carriages occurred in France, General Gassendi recorded the new paint's formula. We think that his command may have been charged with reporting on the durability of the new paint under field conditions. He reports that a batch which would cover 18 caissons with one coat consisted of 36 pounds of yellow ochre, 3 pounds of fine powdered black charcoal, 1 pound 8 ounces of litharge ( a protoxide of lead, it's chemical reaction with oils helped dry the paint ) and 20 pounds of linseed oil.
So, how can yellow and black make green? To understand that you must be much more familiar with pigments than we are, but it's handy to remember that in the visible spectrum, the presence of all colors yields white light, but in Degas', Delacrois' and Millet's world, the presence of all pigments yields the color, black.
Allen, you were the first to mention lead, right on. And Victor, thank's for your continued confidence in us, just hope that it's not in vain. Actually, we are predicting a late next week unveiling if all comes together as we have scheduled it. Lots of clear coat in this thing, Victor, lots and lots!
Regards,
Mike and Tracy
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That formula sounds very much like the one used by the US on its green carriages.
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paint it already ! ;D lets go test the thingage . when i was looking for a 'revolutionary war period rifle'
the very first thing that dawned on me was ...there is no real patterns , just schools of thought . lancaster , york , becker , this county the other county . brass ,german silver , 8 point stars weeping hearts what ever . get what ever you like cause they used it . i'm a sucker for brass ..... ;D
every single one was differant and came with their own sized mold .....
there is NO doubt in my own little pea brain that the shade of green was differant in every single batch that they made . even today they have a hard time 'matching paint' if you go back for another can .
paint the darn thing and lets go . who do you think will know the differance ,where you alive then .....me niether . so there . ;D
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We just finished all the woodwork on the Monster Mortar bed, including the painting too. We think it looks great and the color is, to my eyes, just about perfect. The fact that we put two coats of primer and two coats of green did create one problem, however. The large, heavy, wooden wedges of the bed's core which support the baseplate, tube and cosmetic steel shroud fit very precisely into the bed's outer structure. When we finally had dry paint we anxiously fed the wedges into the bed with the back, timber, panel off. With all five, 75 pound wedges in place, we tried to put the back panel in place. The splines and grooves were mismatched by a little under 1/4"! We were dealing with 16 coats of paint on the various mating surfaces, each about .015" thick or about .240" total! This morning we had to carry each wedge into the basement to trim off a quarter inch. Great way to start the day, more heavy lifting! It all fits now and boring of the two large 7/8" Dia. core-locking cross-bolts is next. These secure the 350 pound timber core to the surrounding mortar bed frame so that the recoil impulse upon the back panel is reduced enormously.
Anyway, we are milling metal tomorrow and look forward to posting a few pics on those operations on Sunday or Monday. Enjoy the photos.
Regards,
Mike and Tracy
Primer goes on the wedges of the "core".
(http://www.fototime.com/E2E2B6F41BD411D/standard.jpg)
2nd primer coat dries and is ready for 1st color coat in the morning.
(http://www.fototime.com/472217842154BC9/standard.jpg)
Gary, Rocklock1 helps us paint and three hours later we have two coats of beautiful green on the big French mortar.
(http://www.fototime.com/F587A15F678FD8A/standard.jpg)
The Old Salt sure knows how to paint! Must have been all that practice he got painting his destroyer while in the Navy.
(http://www.fototime.com/0382F491721C8D6/standard.jpg)
The wedges pile up and are kept separated for a whole day to dry completely. The 125 pound sides are slower to arrive at the assembly area, requiring more effort to get them there.
(http://www.fototime.com/ECBE1437F465C03/standard.jpg)
Mike contemplates the partial assembly. His shadow reminds me of a billboard for one of those adventure flicks which feature a guy with a bullwhip and a large .45 cal. Colt D.A. revolver.
(http://www.fototime.com/2F4A636C4CE48AF/standard.jpg)
We took this pic before we knew that the back panel would not fit.
(http://www.fototime.com/597110C69585D51/standard.jpg)
Mike paints the top plate of the cosmetic shroud.
(http://www.fototime.com/8E954A128095D06/standard.jpg)
We like that hammered black paint a lot.
(http://www.fototime.com/E4461E831ECDCDF/standard.jpg)
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What do you guys think about that shade of green? Am I nuts to like it so much?
Tracy
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it remind me toooooo much of the swedish cammo paint we used in the army ;D
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What do you guys think about that shade of green?
As a color, it is fine, but it is a little green to my view for olive drab. More like the following:
(http://lassengunsmithing.com/images/MonsterMortar.jpg)
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M&T I tend to agree with GGaskill, it looks a little too bright a shade..... as always our opinions are subjective..........
as long as you are satisfied that is what matters, now get this beast loaded and let's see some smoke & fire! ;D
Oh and by the way I don't know if you know this but the color you prime with does have a lot to do with the final color,
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The green looks great to me, but I have to admit that Gary's hat is amazing! ;D
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Dan, For your darker, conifer forests, it would be very well camoflaged. Sounds like you really love that color! ;D George, don't worry, under the big, intensely blue, sky of Montana, the Monster's green paint will appear just as you have depicted it! Allen, smoke and fire is on the schedule in approx. one week and we are looking forward to it!! Spuddy, is that one of those Maine Potatoes hats? If we were PC like Gary, we would be wearing our's as well. But we are about as un-PC as you can get, so we didn't. If we are unsure about any new PC trends, we simply Email George in Cal. He knows all about the latest things that you can't say, buy, write or drive. ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
Love that green!!
Mike and Tracy
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You are coming to Farm country, add a yellow stripe, these guys up here will love it...in fact they will all want one...
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now its 30 years ago , so now its ok ;D
but if you had asked me 30 years ago I would probably have puked om your feet :-[
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can we please see some smoke,I don't even like mortars but that brute has class all of it's own.
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The green looks great to me, but I have to admit that Gary's hat is amazing! ;D
Spuddy , you are right it is the hat you gave me . it has a nice strechy feature. it goes thru the cycles like my other hats . Thanks again ;D
did you ever shoot those steel balls?
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the color is OD no getting around it . now i didnt have the mil spec piant chip ,but like you guys i know it when i see it . :D
but with the black tube and hardware it will look just fine plus with the unpainted wooden base will set it off too .
8000lbs and what do you get ? montana's big sky full of cement .
i think it would make a nice motar barge just back the whole thing into the water and unhook it and off you go . all flags and pennets hoisted . AAaarrgggg ! ;)
8 feet wide and 14 foot long . with an 11 inch mortar in the middle .
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M&T,
I think the green you chose looks fine; in one photo it's a darker shade, then in another it appears lighter, so like you said, someone that hasn't viewed it up close and personal, probably isn't getting the exact tone of the green. I agree with Gary that the contrast between the black tube and green bed when combined are going to improve the look of the whole.
Now, if Gary doesn't mind me paraphrasing him: It's now time to get this "thingage" out into the field, so we can witness how the magical effects of expanding gasses in a confined space can cause a heavy projectile to sail up into the sky. I for one, can't wait to see your mortar fired.
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the thingage is coming together nicley ;D soon ,,,,,
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I keep looking at this thing and keep getting the feeling something is missing...it finally came to me....it is something that Evil Dog said
I've always kinda liked mine.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/bebloomster/MuzzlePlug.jpg)
You need a tampion just like his for travel up the freeway.
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I keep looking at this thing and keep getting the feeling something is missing...it finally came to me....it is something that Evil Dog said
I've always kinda liked mine.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/bebloomster/MuzzlePlug.jpg)
You need a tampion just like his for travel up the freeway.
Yes but add to it...... "SMILE WHEN YOU CALL ME THAT!"
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NOW for the important question, now that the color has been chosen, applied and discussed ---
What is the motar's NAME? "she" or "it" just doesn't do it; it HAS to have a personalized name!
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I like the color combo. I think that shade green looks better on that type of mortar than olive drab. There were several examples of early ordinance that had brighter colors anyway. My opinion. :)
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i will second that ! it does need a name . i know for absolute sure mike would certainly enjoy that task .
he's been offering suggestions all along , he's earned this right in my opinion .
it should be a ....swarthy name of meaning and dignity , like mike has said ....'this son of a ritch has been the stupidist thing you ever did .' it doesnt really roll off the tongue but it does have a certain purpose and authority of '....the old salt....'
lets see what does tsoabhbtstyed ....pronouned Tsobatstyed ......Tisobatstied ,,,yeppppp thats her alright .... :P
IIRC that was a creature of mythic lore .......yea sure they were . ;D
now that was a good idea you had mike ;D
now there have been many other suggestions mike has offered many far more ...colorful ,to where the the air atually turned blue . .....thats my fav. 'old blue' as its black as the ace of spades ....and i might get a reply from the ...'founder of the feast' :D ;D ;)
SO mike what will the new mortar be named , i've tried to be of help but it is your call . ...'cover yer ears darling ....'
NOW for the important question, now that the color has been chosen, applied and discussed ---
What is the motar's NAME? "she" or "it" just doesn't do it; it HAS to have a personalized name!
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i will second that ! it does need a name .
NOW for the important question, now that the color has been chosen, applied and discussed ---
What is the motar's NAME? "she" or "it" just doesn't do it; it HAS to have a personalized name!
How about The Gullywhomper!!!!!!!!!!!
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' The Moderator ' or 'Ugly Betty' seriously though, cars,ships etc. somehow are just female, the brute looks a bit like............' you wouldn't listen to Momma...........so I sent for Poppa.' got to be a male.
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"Bétonnière"
No offense intended, but it does kinda look like one. And considering the projectile material.....
;D
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"Bétonnière"
No offense intended, but it does kinda look like one. And considering the projectile material.....
;D
Yes!!! and you have to look it up to figure it out!!!!!
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I was thinking "THUMPER"......... But Bétonnière is a winner!
and it sort of looks like one too! ;D
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how about "my darling bastard" ??
of corse its a she
reminds me a little of an old russian wrestling women on steroids ;D
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How about "Mort"?
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or "Tiny" ;D
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or: Big Bertha
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i've changed my mind after todays visit i am sure capt. ahab (sp) has nothing on tracy right now ... ;D
"Moby Dick" ( a take off on truth and the whistling dick of lore) is my name for the great white whale . of course the white whale is black in this case , but it doesnt matter .
and capt. tracy and first mate (grudgonly ) mike will spear the the beast and follow it to it's doom .
but as mike has been held hostage to Moby and is really a smee to tracys hook he should live to prosper ;D.
i just hope tracy doesnt get tanged up in the ropes and go to the brimmy deep with .."moby" ....
say a large river on the way back ........ or even a ticking crocodile ......i'm just sayin .....
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Mike and I sure want to thank all of you for helping us with the color and now, thanks to Gary, aka RocklockI, a name. Mike and I have called it many Names, but usually uncomplimentary names like "that bastard" or get that "SOB" out of my way, etc. It's as if, as it keeps getting bigger and bigger, we get more and more irritated, as we are always tripping over it or one of it's parts which are always in the way. So we will call it "La Bete" as in the title to that old silent film, "La Belle et la Bete", "The Beauty and the Beast". The 1908 version or a portion of it still exists, French made and features a beast of a Beast. Most people are familiar with the 1946 remake which is spectacular and is very, very well done and "Beauty" is really beautiful.
La Bete and all of it's beastly parts, fixtures and associated crap will be OUT-OF-THE-SHOP by Tuesday, so says MIKE!! And Gary is correct, Mike has promised to wring my neck if I ever start another large, all consuming, project like this one has become, ever again. I'm anxious to get back to miniatures too, having gained volumes of respect for those makers who make the full size guns.
We have the end in sight now, having successfully drilled the vent last night at 10 PM! We hope to PROOF TEST it on Wednesday or Thursday. The last batch of construction photos will be posted tonight on the other thread, mostly baseplate and tube machining pics. We thank the good Lord above that we didn't break a drill off in the vent! Always a worry, but certainly a big one for the full size cannon maker!
Regards,
Mike and Tracy
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what would possese you to credit me with the name ..... ???
i said moby dick .
unless somehow you tranlated that into the beast . but thanks anyway ;D
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my quills all got wet last night in the rain . i only have about 4 dry straws to do over ......
DD how fast can you overnight some to me ?
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Well lets see...how many do you need?
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ummmmm never mind ......they all got better and delivered to tracy... :o
he took some photos of the complete barrel assy...... wow thats a mothergun for sure . ;D
even got the powder can for size ....down in the bottom of the chamber !
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I began to wonder (after reading the posts about naming the mortar) if it was the French military, press, or public that originally started to call it the "Monster Mortar," and if the word monster was only used descriptively, or if it was used like a nick name. In any case, you'd have to admit that there's not a great difference in the definitions given for the words "Monster," and "Beast."
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"Mike has promised to wring my neck if I ever start another large, all consuming, project like this one has become, ever again."
I figured by now it might possibly have become like that old saying about having a child....
"Wouldn't trade him for a million dollars. Wouldn't give a nickel for another one."
;)
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"Mike has promised to wring my neck if I ever start another large, all consuming, project like this one has become, ever again."
I figured by now it might possibly have become like that old saying about having a child....
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So, Victor, what do you think their next large, all conuming project will be? ;D
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As much as M&T complain about the project and how it has taken over their lives I think they have been bitten by the full scale artillery bug,
once they fire this this beastie there will be no turning back........
I see a full scale water cored coastal Artillery piece in their future......... which means a new truck and a 5th wheel rig to haul it to Montana next year......... ;D
DD your going to need a longer range and bigger targets!.........
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"Mike has promised to wring my neck if I ever start another large, all consuming, project like this one has become, ever again."
I figured by now it might possibly have become like that old saying about having a child....
...
So, Victor, what do you think their next large, all conuming project will be? ;D
I dunno....
If it were me at the end of a project like that it wouldn't be anything "all consuming" but might involve "consuming all" of something in a glass container.
(Responsibly and in moderation of course) ;D