Graybeard Outdoors (GBO Reloaded)
Rifle and Optics Forums => Medium Bore Rifles => Topic started by: WyoStillhunter on May 17, 2011, 06:43:37 AM
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The 35 Whelen All-around? thread has been fun and I have chimed in with a thumbs up for the Whelen. But the 6.5X55 All-around? came up on another forum so I decided to bring the topic here.
My response to the question of 6.5X55 as an all-around rifle:
Without looking at my records I am not certain when I bought my Swede but it must have been in the Spring of '08. In 2008 I took a nice mule deer buck with the Swede.
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f211/dnaumann/2008HuntingPics/MuleDeer08012.jpg)
And I tagged an antelope doe for the freezer with it.
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f211/dnaumann/2008HuntingPics/Antelope1006.jpg)
After the season I sent the rifle to Hill Country Rifles, Inc. in New Braunfels, TX to be accurized and upgraded the Weaver K3 to a Leupold FX 4X.
In 2009 I used my Rem. 700 Classic 6.5X55 with Leupold FX4 scope to take an antelope buck (no picture :-\), fork horn mule deer, and spike elk in three ½ day hunts near my home in SE Wyoming. It was a charmed season, for sure.
Ammo was standard Federal 140 gr. for the antelope and deer. The elk fell to a handload using Hornady 160 gr. RN Interlock. The antelope and deer were 200 yard(+ or -) shots. The elk was less than 50 yards away when shot.
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f211/dnaumann/2009%20HuntingPics/flowerssummer2009010.jpg)
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f211/dnaumann/2009%20HuntingPics/IMG_0900.jpg)
2010 was a tough year. My only harvest was a white tail doe with the Swede.
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f211/dnaumann/2010WThunt007.jpg)
I am convinced that the 6.5X55 is greatly under appreciated and can handle all of my hunting needs as long as I do my part. I was not impressed with the performance of the 160 gr. RN bullet on that little elk. My modern Rem. 700 rifle shoots 140 gr. ammo the best. Going forward I will stick with 140 gr. bullet (Nosler PT, perhaps) in factory loads or handloads for all my 6.5X55 hunting ammo, including elk (and moose if I ever draw the tag).
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I too discovered the 6.5x55 a few years ago and it has become my favorite. I have taken several deer, a few prairie dogs, three coyotes, and a truck load of antelope with a TC Encore or custom Savage in that caliber. Next year my back up gun will be a 7mm mag for my Wyoming antelope trip just to use on the days when the wind is really blowing. The Swede is accurate but it just takes the bullet so long to get there, at long range, the wind can send the bullet into the next county. Its no biggie if the wind gets me when filling doe tags but I've decided to take a buck to have mounted. It is usually hard to get close to the big old bucks and I'm not the greatest at doping the wind.
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I think most hunters have favorite calibers so what I consider an all-around rifle may different what others may like.
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This is a very flexible round for the reloader.
Looking at my reloader's log I see ten different loads that grouped under 1 inch for 3 shots at 100 yards.
Action VZ24 Mauser, barrel 24 inch Shaw medium sporter, MPI stock.
Most accurate load H380 behind a 140 grain Sierra, group size .284 inch.
Hunting load H4350 behind a 140 grain Speer for a velocity of 2672 FPS, groups right at 3/4 inch for 3 shots.
You need to use the slower powders to get maximum velocity with this round for the 140 and 160 grain bullets.
Both Norma 204 and H4350 gave excellent results.
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For what I hunt I could live with my sporter 96 Swede 6.5X55. I rescued it from a "Bubba" that had started hacking on it. It retains the 29" barrel and I cut the "Bubba" bent bolt handle off and made a new one on the lathe and welded it on and put a Bold trigger with a safety on it in place of the "Bubba" adjusted trigger pull what had been filed until it was dangerous. I put it into a new composite stock and glassed it and drilled and tapped it correctly to fix "Bubba's" misalignment of spacing on the holes. With a max load of AA4350 according to their ballistics people to keep the pressure below 46000 cup of 45 grs AA4350 in Rem cases, Federal 210M primers and 140 gr Sierra or Hornadys I get a little over 2800 fps and with 46 grs AA4350 and same case and primer with 120 Nosler BT I get right at 3000 fps. and 1/2 MOA accuracy. I have settled on just the one load with the 120 BT for groundhogs up to WT deer. It shoots flat and hammers deer but the bullet is a little tough to really blow up groundhogs but it still kills them well. I was shooting groundhogs with the 100 gr Sierra HP with Varget powder but I had to re-zero for the 120's. The 100 Sierra HP is a BOMB. It scatters parts everywhere on groundhogs. It makes things more simple to go with the 120's and just leave it zeroed for them. The deer I shoot are between 100 and 200 lbs on average live weight.
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Wyoming stillhunter:
What disappointed you on the 160 gr Hdy?
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The first shot hit the upper, front leg bone just below the joint with the shoulder blade and disintegrated. It did not penetrate into the chest cavity. At less than 50 yards the spike absorbed considerable shock, was disoriented and started limping in a slow U-turn. I put the second bullet through the lungs. Then he stopped and stood with head down. Although mortally wounded at this point I fired a third shot high in the neck to put him down on the spot. The entire episode took place at less than 50 yards as the elk continued toward me and the second shot was closest of the three.
When butchered that shoulder I could find no recognizable bullet parts. It was pulverized bone and bullet and bloody meat. I was flabbergasted at this bullet failure. No, this was not a maximum velocity load...just a run of the mill book load. The range was short and the bone was squarely hit.
I have killed elk with factory ammo and handloads in 30-06, 280 Rem., 35 Whelen, and .444 Marlin. So I have some field experience under my belt to compare. I still have confidence in Hornady bullets but this was an exceptional experience. I really can't explain it any other way.
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Considering the low velocity of that round to start with it is a puzzle to me as well. I have not used that cartridge for any hunting to date.
The only unhappy surprise I had with another heavy for cal bullet was the original 200 gr Silvertip bullet in the 308 Win load and a similar weight Canadian bullet in the same cartridge.
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I've pretty much switched to a Ruger M77 in 6.5 for most of my deer hunting. It's also accounted for a couple of off season coyotes. The M77 likes 140 and 129 grain bullets but 160s won't group very well. One 140 grain bullet is all I need.
This may sound sacrilegious but my .30/06 doesn't get much use anymore.
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From small impala to big bluewilde beest and nice warthog inbetween - no problem.
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Sweet 6.5
What type of ammo( bullet weight/type) do you use??
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the ballistic coeffecient of the long for its diameter bullet is very good.its trajectory is good for a bullet of a somewhat low velocity.penatration has been proven as well.it does not use a lot of powder. yu dont find a lot of inaccurate rifles in this caliber.case life is good.shoots well with a lot of powders as well.but as a previous poster said, the 140 grn bullet seems to work the best.doesnt kick much.im not finding a lot of down side to the 6.5x55.im thinkin i could live with it as my only centerfire rifle.i only have 1 at present.but id like to have more.
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The 6.5x55 is a great caliber and Hillbill is right, the ballistic coefficient for that long for the bore bullet is excellent, as it is with all 6.5mm bores and if I had only one rifle for the type of hunting I enjoy, it would be the Swede. If I wanted something lighter in weight to haul around I would opt for the 260, which I think is, finally, a appropriate development in the 6.5 bore.
I started with a 6.5 Italian Carcano in the mid-60s and handloaded 120 and 160 gn slugs, and even though slower than the Swede, that 6.5 filled the freezer when culling herds. As with the Wyostillhunter, I am convinced the 6.5mm bore is greatly under appreciated.
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Never understood why folks like the 6.5X55. I much prefer the .270 or .30-06.
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Since we are talking about all around cartridges, there is a group of elk hunters in Oregon who have been shooting the Swede for years using 140 gr. bullets. They are dead shots and will not take a chance shot. There are no grizzly bears in Oregon so for this elite group, the Swede may be considered an all around cartridge. The big bears inhabit much of the western mountains. It is a good idea to pack a powerful rifle for protection. Sometimes it is too windy to use pepper spray. The margin of error is small where large bull elk are concerned. A 30-06 stoked with RL22 and premium 180 grain bullets for a muzzle velocity over 2800 fps is at the low end of the scale for the average elk hunter. provided that bullet placement is good. I shoot a 6.5x55 for deer and antelope and it is a very effective cartridge. The 129 gr. Hornady is my choice for large deer and I like the 120 grain bullet for antelope.
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I used 140gr bullets most of the time. I hunted with Speer and Sierras and they worked very well.
I used 160gr Hornady on bwb and it performed great. I shot the warthog with a 156gr Lapua
mega and it also worked great - ;D ;D Hey this is maybe why I like it so much, everything just works.
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I have bought, sold, traded all sorts of calibers and have never parted with any 6.5x55. I dont know what it is about it that makes me stay true to the 6.5x55 but I always have. I load on the lite side and take advantage of 26" plus barrels and achive fair velocities doing so. Easy on my shoulder and tough on game. I would say it is an all around cartrage loaded from 160 grain roundnose for bear and hogs to 140 grain accubond's for deer and 123 grain ballistic tips for varms. Heck the 6.5x55 is just plain fun to shoot.
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I got mine finally back from the G-smith after replacing the barrel, getting action bedded and the stock made more suitable for a southpaw. Once the bugs have thinned out( Septermber?) enough to survive a day at the range I'm loooking forward to shoot that rifle for my first time.
I've got Norma 204 and MRP left so I can make real Swede Ammo......except for the brass.
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Never understood why folks like the 6.5X55. I much prefer the .270 or .30-06.
Swampy
You do not understand the 6.5 because you never reseached the road or maybe never shot one on game . You much preferthe 270 and the 3006 , but what then do you compare it too?
Those long skinny bullets do well in the wind as well as penatrate deep . They have accounted for many moose oversea's as well as deer, on this side of the pond . The 6.5x55 is very mild as far as recoil, so this makes it a great round to train a new shooter to the centre fire .
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Possibly because it is a European cartridge?
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I have in my huge stack of unfinished projects a 700 Remy that will someday hopefully be a 6.5x55.
It's right there next to a half finished 257 Roberts ::)
The 6.5x55 is excellent and works well as an all around gitter done cartridge.
I find that most folks who don't like it have not used it, or they are hung up on paper ballistics.
This is one cartridge that out shines it's paper pedigree and does it with a mild recoil and grace.
The 6.5 is one of my favorite rounds I think the 308 win out shines her a bit but not by much.
Swampy if you were to give the 6.5 a good try you'd love it. And your old shoulder would be sure try talking you into leaving that 06 or 270 in the rack more often. You know we ain't gettin any younger and a little lighter recoil might just let us keep hauntin them backwoods a little while longer. ;D
Pat
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I don't think the 6.5 Swede gives up anything to 308s or 270s, and may even outshoot them. When you look at military match ammo built for long range shooting you will find the 6.5 Swede probably sitting right next to the 308 and the 06 (and I am just throwing these calibers in for comparison).
You can spend many hundreds of $ on somebody's newest tactical rifle designed to give you the maximum possible accuracy out of the newesrt whizzbang caliber, or you can pick up a 6.5mm Swede mil-surp, spend a few $ on sporterizing it and probably come up with something just as nice or just as good.
There is a lot of hype these days about the newer calibers with their newest loadings that are unequaled by anything that has ever come before it, regardless of caliber comparisons. Why doancha know that now a days the 308 (comparison only)with a 168 gn slug will outshoot and outperform a 190 gn 06, or a 155 gn 6.5 or a 180 gn 7.5x55 or a 200 gn 7.62x54R and, of course, the lowly 6.5 Swede doesn't even fit into that equation - dincha know that??
I think the 6.5 makes a excellent all-around cartridge and I also feel that the plain ol 260 would be a close runner-up. Years ago the ballistics of the old 6.5 Carcano (6.5x52mm) on game really impressed me. The 260 is a modern update (6.5x51mm) as far as I'm concerned and the 6.5 Swede is even better. jmtcw.
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Mikey I wasn't taking anything away from the 6.5 by my statement on the 308.
If I could have just one caliber it would be the 308 manly because there has been one in my rack longer than any other cartridge and it has never let me down.
The fact is there are many cartridges out there that would fit the bill for all around purposes. In fact there are probably as many as there are opinions on the subject. ;D
Pat
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The 6.5x55 is very mild as far as recoil,
As are the .270 & .30-06....and they've killed everything everywhere.
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Now come on Swampy, you know that sometimes I agree with you, but I can't always. Saying that the .30-06 doesn't have much recoil is not true. In fact, the military found that it was at the upper limits of what an average man could tolerate in a military bolt action rifle. And lots of recruits just plain couldn't handle it.
I'll bet that if you run the math, you would find that the 6.5 Swede has significantly fewer foot pounds of free recoil energy than the .30-06, comparing a standard 140 grain Swede load to a standard 150 grain .30-06.
Now maybe its true that the recoil of the .30-06 doesn't bother you, but that's not the same as saying that it doesn't have much recoil. Fire 100 rounds of Swede from the bench. Then fire 100 rounds of .30-06. You will see.
Just my opinions. :-)
Manny
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Absolutely nothing wrong with the 6.5X55 Swedish cartridge.
My 338-06 A-Square is my choice for an all around rifle cartridge.
yooper77
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........................
The fact is there are many cartridges out there that would fit the bill for all around purposes....................
Pat
No doubt unless you go to the extreme end of the spectrum.
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The 6.5x55 is very mild as far as recoil,
As are the .270 & .30-06....and they've killed everything everywhere.
A look at a recoil calculator will prove you are mistaken. ;)
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No it doesn't prove anything except that a deer sized game only caliber kicks a little less than one that is suitable for 95% of the worlds game. If you can't shoot an adequate cartridge, respect the game and don't hunt it.
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I got bitten by the 6.5x55 bug many years ago and I love the round, although I've not actually hunted with it. It's accurate and easy to shoot. There are so many gorgeous bullets available for it. I really think a 120 Barnes TSX at 3,000 fps would not be far behind a .270 130 grain bullet at 3,100 fps. I recommended the 6.5 for a friend for his son to hunt with and he loved it. I handloaded 140 Grain Nosler partitions at 2,750 fps. He said they killed very well on Wyoming Mule Deer. It was a Howa that was rebarreled to 6.5x55 (23") with a 3x9 scope.
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i guess really a all around cartridge would hinge on the biggest game yu plan to shoot.for me that means a big buck deer of maybe 250lbs, a medium size black bear of 300 lbs or possibly a elk.now me bein me, i dont take any chancey shot regardless of what im shooting.if i dont think i can put it within a couple inches of where im aiming, it gets to walk free.what i like about the 6.5 is its low powder use for what it can do.and the trajectory of the low recoil gun.im not recoil shy trust me but i just hate burning more powder than i need for the job.what really sold me was when i was a big 06 fan, and still am. was when i shot a 6.5 140 grn at about 2700 fps agin a 06 125 grn doin about 3000 fps. the 6.5 dropped significantly less than the 06 at 300 yrds.long skinny agin short fat.jus my opinon as well, the 6.5, the 06 and the 270 are all the cream of the crop and cant be beat.
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That 125 grain .30-06 has a terrible BC. The .30-06 needs a 180 boattail to show it's stuff.
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I like the 260 and shoot rem. 140gr CL in mine. But I think my favorite "all around" caliber is the 257 Roberts. :).
Regards,
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One thing I will agree with Swampman on is this. The 6.5 Swede, though a wonderful round, is not an Elk cartridge. Yes, you can kill an Elk with it, at medium to close range with a near perfect shot. Yes, I know that in Sweden, people shoot the small moose with it. But at what range? Their moose hunting is all close-up stuff, probably at 100 to 125 yards.
So, if an all-around cartridge means that the Swede is good and consistent for Elk (even really big ones), in bad weather, at ranges up to 250 yards or so, I must very respectfully disagree.
Yes, I know that bullet placement is everything, and that the Swede will shoot 155 to 160 grain bullets. But I would ask you this. If you were paying $15,000 for your once in a lifetime trophy Elk hunt, would you take a 6.5 Swede? No. You wouldn't. And since you wouldn't, I say that it is not an Elk gun.
An all around cartridge must be able to consistently take Elk (including huge bulls) at reasonable ranges, in good and bad weather, without any reasonable chance of failure, with good (but not perfect) shot placement. The 6.5 won't.
Folks brag every year that they have killed an Elk with a .243 or a .30-30. Does that make those rounds an all around cartridge?
I believe that the .30-06 is THE all around cartridge, and that the .308 just sneaks in, using the highest quality, premium bullet, hi-energy rounds.
Just my thoughts.
Mannyrock
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No it doesn't prove anything except that a deer sized game only caliber kicks a little less than one that is suitable for 95% of the worlds game. If you can't shoot an adequate cartridge, respect the game and don't hunt it.
That wasn't even in the discussion.
My post was in regards to recoil. You stated the 30-06 and 6.5x55 are the same. On the quoted post you changed your mind.
Nothing was posted by me in regards if it was suitable for all type of game or as many as a 30-06. I happen to agree with you that the 30-06 has more application for larger game but then again the 6.5 comes closer to being more of an varmint round then the 30-06.
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You stated the 30-06 and 6.5x55 are the same.
Where?
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You stated the 30-06 and 6.5x55 are the same.
Where?
True, you did not use those exact words. Your reply No. 23 in which you quoted Harry Snippe basically states that the 270 and 30-06 have very mild recoil similar to the 6.5x55.
Without dragging this on, IMO there is a noticable difference in recoil between those two 06 type cartridges and the Swede comparing similar weight rifles.
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No it doesn't prove anything except that a deer sized game only caliber kicks a little less than one that is suitable for 95% of the worlds game. If you can't shoot an adequate cartridge, respect the game and don't hunt it.
With that Said Swampy- Step up to the Plate with the 300W Mag- or then stay home .We would not just wanta hurt the poor thing !!
We are saying the 6,5x55 is no whimp out of the hot end - just to your shoulder .
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I have a .375H&H and the recoil isn't bad.
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OK, time out. I'll summarize.
The .30-06 kicks alot more than the 6.5 Swede.
The 6.5 Swede is a great round, but is not really an all-around cartridge. Too light on the heavy North American game in bad weather at ranges to be reasonably expected..
Most folks don't define an all around cartridge by its ability to handle small varmints. No the .30-06 is not a great groundhog gun, but it will certainly do.
Mannyrock
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I think the question was CAN a 6.5 x 55mm be used as an all around rifle, and the answer is YES, as long as you use proper bullet selection for the game and recognize the limitations of the cartidge. Heck the mountain men killed everything with black powder rifles and patched round balls.
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I like the 6.5 X 55 and have built and owned one.
However my idea of an all around rifle for anywhere in North America including Alaska and Canada would be the various .338 chamberings ie. 338 Winchester Mag, 340 Weatherby Mag, 338/06 etc.
For just the lower 48 States I would vote for the old faithful 30-06.
And I like the .35 Whelen a great round for anywhere in North America.
I have a hard time deciding, like too many of them, that's why I have 14 hunting rifles in my safe.
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Well yes, of course, the 6.5 Swede CAN be used as an all around rifle.
But any rifle, including the .223, CAN be used as an all around rifle, with proper bullet selection and proper bullet placement. Just ask the native people in Alaska.
And sure the Mountain Men killed just about everything with .40 and .50 caliber muzzleloaders. And how much game did they wound and lose? I'm betting lots. Back then, wounding and losing game was just routine. The Lewis and Clark expedition reported similar problems.
The poster asked us what we thought of the selection of the 6.5 as an all around cartridge. We are giving him our honest opinions, and if we think its a bad choice, then in all honesty we're going to tell him.
Regards, Mannyrock
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[Jerimiah finds the frozen body of Hatchet Jack]
"I, Hatchet Jack, being of sound mind and broke legs, do leaveth my rifle to the next thing who finds it, Lord hope he be a white man. It is a good rifle, and kilt the bear that kilt me. Anyway, I am dead. Sincerley, Hatchet Jack."
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Don't ya'll know that 44 thousandth of an inch will make a giant difference in killing power, making the 30-06 far superior than the 6.5x55 !! Just ask ole Hatchet Jack. ;D ;)
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No Dave, its probably that extra 60 grains of bullet weight (220 vs. 160), and several hundred foot pounds of energy that makes the difference.
Anyone up for Grizzly hunting with the 6.5 Swede?
No. I didn't think so. :-)
Manny
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Don't native Alaskans kill grizzly and polar bears with .223s? I will guarantee that a 6.5mm 140gr nosler partition with a MV of 2650 fps thru the lungs will result in a very dead grizzly bear. Would I go on a $15000 bear hunt in Alaska with my swede? no. But I did use it in New Mexico where a mixed bag of javalina, whitetail, mule deer, black bear and elk could be expected in a single season, along with various varmints. That would pretty well sum up an "all around" rifle. Extreme long range and dangerous game in my opinion would fall into the realm of specialty rifles and cartridges.
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It won't go through the lungs. It will just make the bear mad.
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It won't go through the lungs. It will just make the bear mad.
If you really believe that then you know very little about bear anatomy.
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You'll need more than a needle to harvest a grizz.
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No Dave, its probably that extra 60 grains of bullet weight (220 vs. 160), and several hundred foot pounds of energy that makes the difference.
Anyone up for Grizzly hunting with the 6.5 Swede?
No. I didn't think so. :-)
Manny
Manny, my post was more in response to Swampman's silly quotes. But if I need to explain that energy is a poor way to measure killing power or almost identical sectional densities(.328 for 6.5 vs .331 for .308) with the same bullet construction is a good indicator of bullet penetration, I guess I can but there is volumes written on it and lots of experienced people to ask also. I'm not saying the 6.5x55 is a better round its not, its different though and closer to the 30-06 than people think when driving heavy for caliber bullets. Personally I think the 06 is a better round for elk and up but for deer I seriously doubt anyone would notice any difference at all and I would prefer the 6.5 for deer due to lighter recoil. By the way if I'm hunting the true big bears I'll start with the 338 with a good 250gr bullet.
Dave
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Wow! Lively discussion we have here.
The idea of all-around cartridge in my OP goes way beyond theory and ballistics tables. Any discussion of all-around that is not purely theoretical, and therefore completely arguable ad nauseum, must include the particulars of field application by the hunter using it.
In my case, I am finding the Swede sufficient to my all-around hunting needs. Consider that I (1) hunt locally at minimal expense, (2) have a fair number of days in the field on a good year, (3) pursue antelope, deer, and elk in country that also supports a few black bears and a bunch of mountain lion, (4) mostly still hunt or stalk to moderate/close range, (5) can usually come back tomorrow if no game is found today, (6) can best be described as pursuing eating-sized animals, and (7) consider every animal cleanly taken by fair chase to be a "trophy." I like to be successful but my self-worth is not dependent on trophy racks, monster bulls, or long-range, DRT, slam dunk annihilation of a wild animal in lousy weather.
The Swede is working out well for me and YMMV. Finally, don't forget Rule #2: It's all small stuff.
Enjoy the day, fellas.
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You can always pack a handgun with you in bear country if you figure a 6.5 isn't up to snuff. :)
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It won't go through the lungs. It will just make the bear mad.
(http://www.cool-smileys.com/images/219.gif) (http://www.cool-smileys.com/smiley-that-says-yeah-right)
"The consensus among experts is that the polar bear is the largest, but some believe the Kodiak bear to be larger."
http://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/mysteries/bear.html
This was taken from one of Chuck Hawks articles:
"The 7x57 and 6.5x55 are among the world's classic hunting cartridges, proven on all manner of game, from tiny European chamois to Scandinavian moose, arctic polar bear and all African CXP2 and CXP3 plains game. These and similar, but less well known, cartridges have even brought down more than their fair share of the African Big Four dangerous species, mostly in the hands of local farmers and professional hunters."
And another one:
"So long as the hunter does his part with regard to proper bullet placement and keeping within the limitations of range, these rounds are all that is needed for feral hogs, antelope, deer, black bear and caribou using typical 125-140 grain bullets. Loaded with 160 grain round nosed bullets, they have also killed their fair share of moose, polar bear, African lion and even elephant at close range, though such practices are generally frowned upon today."
This from a Norwegian hunting journal:
"The bulk of the polar bears which have been shot by Norwegian trappers have been taken with the 6.5 mm Krag-Joergensen, a slightly weaker version of the 6.5 mm Mauser."
This from a Cabela's talk forum:
"I have personally seen my 6.5X55 cleanly take an old cape buffalo with one shot. The buffalo never took a step and it was over."
This from 24hourcampfire:
"My friend shot a nice grizzly with a 6.5x55 (M/38) from about 50 yards. The bear stood up on its hind legs to survey the situation - the brush was about waist high - and the shot went straight into the chest. The bear turned to run away while dropping and made it less than 50 yards before giving up the ghost. The ammunition was cheap Privi Partisan soft point."
Swampy,
I can keep quoting websites all night long that prove your statement is merely speculation. It's better to stick to the facts.
Here's a good place to start learning facts: http://www.amazon.com/Wanderings-Elephant-Hunter-D-M-Bell/dp/1571572244
Thanks, Dinny
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You can always pack a handgun with you in bear country if you figure a 6.5 isn't up to snuff. :)
Or just get a .30-06.
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The 6.5 swede is a great all around. I live in the dessert so the 6.5 is a bit large for 95% of my hunting. When I travel to hunt, I have no problem with the 6.5. In fact I love it. It is great, mild recoil, great sectional density and the list goes on.
I don't think I will be shooting a grizzly or polar bear in the next decade and neither will 85% of the hunters on these forums. I have killed deer, antelope, elk and a mountain lion with the 6.5. I certainly wasn't under gunned. If I was to spend $ 15,000 on an elk hunt I would have no problem with the swede. If I booked a hunt like that I would ask about ranges etc and take the gun to fit the area.
(I don't own a 30-06 and won't decry it as a great rifle either). If you live in Colorado, Wyoming, Kanasas, Nebraska etc the 6.5 would be a great rifle. If you live in Canada or Alaska you might want to go a bit bigger.
There are memebers of the forum who use a 22 hornet on large game animals where legal.
The 6.5 is a great cartridge, hopefully it will last another century.
Shot placement is very important regardless of caliber. If you own a 6.5 and think it's a great cartridge you have discovered a great little rifle.
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I don't believe in such things as an "all around cartridge."
Even if I did, it would not be a 6.5 Swede. I like the 6.5 caliber but the Swede requires a "standard length" action. If you are going to pack the length (and the metal and the weight) then get something that drives 6.5 bullets a little faster. --- 256 Newton, if you want to be unique, or a 6.5-06 if you want to keep it simple.
Just no need to settle for the lower velocities of the Swede if you are a reloader.
Barstooler
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Barstooler:
There seems to be an upper limit of energy,power or performance for a given caliber. When folks want or need more they go up to the next caliber.
Recall the .264 Win Mag.
That cartridge was about as fast as you would want to push a 6.5 mm bullet. Remington came out with 7mm Rem Mag and that was pretty much the end for the Win. round. If you didn't have enough with the 7mm Mag you went to the 30 cal cases and so forth.
Personally I think the 260 Rem is about the upper limit for a standard 6.5 mm cartridge.
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The 6.5x55 swede actually has more powder capacity than the 260 and is actually not far behind the 6.5-06. The swede's pressures are kept low by ammo manufactures and reloading manuels due to all the old and weaker military rifles. If it was loaded to the same pressures as a 260 or 6.5-06 and fired in a modern bolt gun it would be only about a 100fps slower then the 6.5-06. Perhaps the Old Swede is a bit better than people give it credit for.
Dave
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Yes, many and varied opinions and answers.
All-round for what ???
Varmints ?
Thin skinned game ?
African Antelope ?
North American Big game ?
Thick skinned and Dangerous game ?
I certainly wouldn't want to face an African Buffalo with anything less than a .375H&H or a 9.3 ,
but then I was brought up in Africa, and there aren't any Grizzlies there sitting on an ice floe waiting for their terminal 6.5x55 fix ! :)
I guess we also tend to use what we've got, and justify that.
The Europeans shoot Moose with the 6.5mm, because that's their standard popular calibre, inherited from the Military.
I love shooting my .22 centrefires. They cover a wide range of 'small'ish' game, probably out to 250mtrs, but I wouldn't be shooting anything larger than a Goat, Roe, Muntjac, Duiker etc with them.
I'd more settle for a .243 for the small antelope sized thin skinned game, like Fallow, Springbok, the smaller Whitetail etc, javelinas and small hogs
,.....and then we probably start getting into the optimal 6.5mm and .30cal country, in my opinion,
esp for the larger deer and antelope.
but,
Anything that is capable of stomping, goring, biting, gouging or mauling me deserves something larger than .30cal,
even if it's just for respect !!!,
but then again if you can't handle recoil, don't go there.
Stick to hunting something less dangerous.
Nothing more disconcerting than a hunter flinching and blinking when in a tight spot,
but then I guess the guide behind him with the 4 bore Elephant gun has to earn his fee !!! :)
I have a lovely Sako 75 in .308 .
After years of loading Sierra's 155 and 175grs, and shooting Mil Surplus, Lapua 185 factory loads, and Federal Eagles I've just started shooting the 110gr V-Max in it for a lighter recoil load, and having plenty of fun. Accurate too. Recoil about 9/10 ft/lbs as opposed to 12/14.
Now you could class this as some sort of all-round calibre, (110gr - 180gr+) sort of a middle of the road allrounder,
but it depends what one intends to shoot with it, or what is available to shoot.
I respect the 6.5mm. Plenty of them about, esp the sporterised surplus Swedish Mausers, but I don't own one, and it's not on my 10 most wanted list.
I could use a 30/06 on big Reds, but the .308 would suffice.
30/06 seems to use a lot more powder, a large action, and generate more recoil for marginal increase in 'allroundness'.
In my opinion it's a matter of 'Horses for Courses' or....... 'Use enough Gun', as Ruark says.
cheers,
SS
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;D
Some of the first nation people up here in the North of the good 'ol USA used to use the 32/20 for deer and knew how to use them.
Doubt if many people are ever going to see a Grizz.or anything out out of Africa so why bring this up on this tread . If you hunt over there your not going to bring anything smaller than a bore you can put your thumb in .
Up North the 303 B as well as the 6.5 Swede get used on game such as seals since the guns at one time could all be bought under fifty dollars . So they learned to shoot them .
Well some of us are rich enough to afford a 6.5 made by Winchester Remington or tikka or CZ just to name a few, and will use their guns with pride at the entended game .
Have I ever the chance to spot a Hippo in the deer woods in the fall , I sure will run and trade it in on an 375 H&H .
Think the biggest problem withthe 6.5x55 is that it is not American .
Then neither is that Sako.
For us here in Canada guns and Ammo needs to be imported - so when we could buy a 96 for about forty dollars as they came across the pond . Word also got out that the round worked well on the deer we have here in Canada and could also put a 8/9 hundred pound moose down if we did our part . It sure is an big improvment over the 44/40 used a hundred years ago.
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I knew an old feller back when I was just a kid that lived up the road from us. He had to have been in his late 70s or early 80s. He was retired old school army. He had an old Trap door rifle 45/70 that he hand loaded for he would walk along the highway and pick up old wheel weights that had fallen off vehicles, melt them down and make his old paper patched bullets. He had some wooden blocks that he used for a loading press and used black powder. He would load the bullets light, because in our part of Oklahoma back then there were no deer or hogs to shoot. Just squirrels, cotton tails, quail, and bullfrogs and the occasional chicken killer.
The old man killed a bunch of them critters with old Springfield, it was the only gun he owned. I'd say that for him and his needs that made it and all around rifle. All around is limited to each of us as individuals. There is no all around rifle for all of us because there are so many choices, and preferences.
Pat
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Barstooler:
There seems to be an upper limit of energy,power or performance for a given caliber. When folks want or need more they go up to the next caliber.
Recall the .264 Win Mag.
That cartridge was about as fast as you would want to push a 6.5 mm bullet. Remington came out with 7mm Rem Mag and that was pretty much the end for the Win. round. If you didn't have enough with the 7mm Mag you went to the 30 cal cases and so forth.
Personally I think the 260 Rem is about the upper limit for a standard 6.5 mm cartridge.
Actually with the powders of that time, the 256 Newton was the upper limit that Charles Newton could get out of 6.5 case and had to shorten the 06 to do so. Big argument, but that is why Win probably went to .277 caliber on the 270 so they would not have to shorten the case like Newton (also assumes they did not want to chamber the Newton in a new proprietary rifle). The fact remains that the 6.5-06 (or 6.5-284 being of near identical case capacity) is about the ideal you can get out of 6.5 caliber with today's powders without going what many call "overbore."
It gets back to my basic point that if building a standard action 6.5, why settle for the Swede if you are a handloader and decide to build a 6.5-06? Necking the 25-06 case up to 6.5-06 is a simple passing of the case through a die, similar to necking the 30-06 up to 338-06 or 35 Whelen. I can't see leaving 200 fps on the table when shooting 120 to 140gr bullets when they are still leaving the muzzel at about 2800 to 2900 fps -- certainly not "magnum" velocities -- and the recoil is still diddly squat. Even then I would not consider a 6.5-06 an "all around" rifle. I would not use it shoot P Dogs, nor bears, but I certainly consider it useful for Antelope to Elk.
Barstooler
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If it came down to only having 4 centerfire cartriges available in N. America for whatever reason the 30-06 would be one of them IMO. What would be the other 3 ??
Rimfire? Hands down the 22 lfr IMO.
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If it came down to only having 4 centerfire cartriges available in N. America for whatever reason the 30-06 would be one of them IMO. What would be the other 3 ??
.375H&H, .223, .243 Winchester.
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Quote:
Quote from: scatterbrain on Today at 08:26:52 AM
If it came down to only having 4 centerfire cartriges available in N. America for whatever reason the 30-06 would be one of them IMO. What would be the other 3 ??
My three choices: .257 Roberts Ackley Improved 75-100 grain bullets varmints up to and including deer
.338 Winchester Mag 200-250 grain bullets for deer, bear, elk.
.375 H&H with 270 grain bullets for Brown Bear, Moose.
The above are between .3 and .6 tenths inch accuracy at 100 yards with their best loads.
My Springfield 30-06 with a 19 inch barrel in a mannlicher stock is good enough for the lower 48 states on practically everything that moves. 1/2 inch MOA accuracy and easy to carry.
Hate to leave out 6 M/M Remington, .270 Winchester, 7x57 Mauser, .308 Winchester, 8x57 Mauser, 45-70 and .458 Winchester mag.
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Hmmm, 4 centerfire rifle rounds. Tough choice. Probably 260 Rem/6.5 Swede., 30-06, 357 max. and 375 H&H
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25-06, 30-06, 35 Whelen, 308 Win. Actually the first three would suffice for any thing in North America. They all have over lapping capabilities so there are no gaps that need to be filled. I put the 308 in because it is my favorite cartridge and I wouldn't want to be with out one. ;)
Pat
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If it came down to only having 4 centerfire cartriges available in N. America for whatever reason the 30-06 would be one of them IMO. What would be the other 3 ??
Rimfire? Hands down the 22 lfr IMO.
Well, I wouldn't pick the 30-06 Springfield as one of my primary 4 centerfire cartridges.
(Trying not to stray off topic, the 6.5x55 Swedish would be considered if I owned one)
I would pick the following:
223 Remington ~ Varmint and youth Deer
270 Winchester ~ Antelope, Deer, Black Bear, Moose and Elk
7mm-08 Remington ~ Antelope, Deer, Black Bear, Moose and Elk
338-06 A-Square ~ Antelope, Deer, Black Bear, Moose, Elk and the largest Bears
Other centerfire cartridges I have and will not part with are as follows:
22-250 Remington ~ Varmint and youth Deer
243 Winchester ~ Varmint and Deer
7x57 Mauser Ackley Improved ~ Antelope, Deer, Black Bear, Moose and Elk
30-06 Springfield Ackley Improved ~ Antelope, Deer, Black Bear, Moose and Elk
yooper77
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If it came down to only having 4 centerfire cartriges available in N. America for whatever reason the 30-06 would be one of them IMO. What would be the other 3 ??
Rimfire? Hands down the 22 lfr IMO.
Whoa! Did we start a new topic here or what? ::) ???
(http://www.cool-smileys.com/images/170.gif) (http://www.cool-smileys.com/smiley-that-says-off-topic-2)
Thanks, Dinny
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Mea Culpa !
Looking at this closely, you are correct, I am off topic. I got carried away when I was thinking about an all around rifle.
OK Moderators, do your thing. :(
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Well, I will vote for the 6.5x55 as a viable choice for an all-around cartridge. Bought my older son a Kimber-sporterized M96 as his first rifle when he was 9 and it is still among his favorites. Exceptional accuracy with 140 gr rounds - factory or handload - with minimal recoil. After his magnum toys, he says that shoot this is like cheating. Nothing shot with it has ever gotten away or needed shooting again. And the effective range has been from just off the muzzle to as far as he has been willing to shoot ( just under 400 yards for the longest shot so far ).
I have other rifles in other calibers that I could call all-around, too - but I have an old M98 that will be put into 6.5x55 soon and I expect it will get the call as often as anything else in the gun safe.
Bruceissippi
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I knew an old feller back when I was just a kid that lived up the road from us. He had to have been in his late 70s or early 80s. He was retired old school army. He had an old Trap door rifle 45/70 that he hand loaded for he would walk along the highway and pick up old wheel weights that had fallen off vehicles, melt them down and make his old paper patched bullets. He had some wooden blocks that he used for a loading press and used black powder. He would load the bullets light, because in our part of Oklahoma back then there were no deer or hogs to shoot. Just squirrels, cotton tails, quail, and bullfrogs and the occasional chicken killer.
The old man killed a bunch of them critters with old Springfield, it was the only gun he owned. I'd say that for him and his needs that made it and all around rifle. All around is limited to each of us as individuals. There is no all around rifle for all of us because there are so many choices, and preferences.
Pat I think that about covers the definition of "all around." Well said.
We each define what all around means for us. Where we get into trouble is trying to tell someone else what all around should, ought, or is supposed to mean to them. 8)
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Mmmph :-X Stay On Topic ...............Stay on Topic :-[
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Kind of new here, but this is my 2 cents. The Swede is one of the best all around rifles (M 70 for me). It maybe a little heavy for varmints but so is an '06. It maybe a little light for cape buffalo. But for for most game, deer, lopes, elk, hogs, etc. it is all u need. Sure I have other calibers, 25's, 30's, 444, but the 6.5 is very user friendly. If you go to marlin owners, there is a picture of a guy from Scandinavia that is pictured with a brown bear he killed with a 6.5. It can be done.
All I shoot thru mine is 129 grainers. I have not found I needed anything else for deer and hogs. If I went after elk or moose I might go with a TSX, or grab the M 70 300 Weatherby being it is already sighted for 180 TSX's.
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So I decided to get myself a CZ550 6.5x55 ;D ;D
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So I decided to get myself a CZ550 6.5x55 ;D ;D
That's a good, quality choice!
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I don't know about it for the all around rifle. However, it always shoots well , bullets go deep, kind to the shoulder, dispatches animals way beyond what most people would believe. I have used one since I was 16 ( mostly with 140 gr partitions and have killed everything I have shot with it with no problems and never felt undergunned. This includes deer , elk, moose, hogs, and one large Asian buffalo. It would not be my first choice for the great bears but if it was all I had I could use it. I think the key is being able to shoot it well with good bullets in the right place with confidence. By the way the buffalo was with a Competitor pistol. Hope this helps.