Graybeard Outdoors (GBO Reloaded)
Rifle and Optics Forums => Remington Firearms => Topic started by: pastorp on June 24, 2011, 06:50:51 AM
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Anyone know the story on the current owners of Remington?
How's their quality, I know the new Marlins quality has sure gone down since remington bought them out. That's my opinion at least.
It seems like all the oldtime American gun makers are in trouble in one way or another. Sure hope they can survive.
Whats your take on all this, Do you think the american made firearms industry is doomed?
Regards,
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If they keep sending the manufacturing process overseas and sell out to huge Corps. I would say "Yes".
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If they keep sending the manufacturing process overseas and sell out to huge Corps. I would say "Yes".
What are you talking about? What in the current line up of Remington Firearms are made overseas?
As to the OP's question I hear a lot of pissing and moaning but question how many of them have actually bought NEW Remington firearms lately. I have and other than the fact I prefer the older triggers to the new I really don't see a problem with the quality of those I have personally purchased nor those I have handled in the process of deciding.
I own at least seven or eight M700 and Model Seven's purchased within the last few years and have seen no deterioration in quality of those I own. I do not like the X Mark Pro trigger. Loved the X Mark but not the Pro version.
So far I have two rifles with it both M700s both I think made in 2010. The first was an XHR and the latest a limited edition with CDL stock and stainless metal and fluted barrel in .280 Remington. On the XHR I tried to adjust the trigger and the pull got heavier not lighter and no amount of adjusting will now change the pull weight so it really wasn't adjustable at all. On the newer one I've made no attempt to adjust and won't bother since the adjustment screw is about to fall out now and the pull as I got it was from 4.25 to 4.5 pounds for three pulls with my RCBS gage.
So other than the trigger change which I think was a mistake I just haven't seen a problem with the guns I'm getting. I definitely will be buying fewer new Remington rifles tho if they don't do something about that X Mark Pro trigger.
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if you're poor like me start liking H&R because they're cheap and accurate, and remington gets a cut for ownership/royalties. everyone wins! ;)
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Bill, I bought a new marlin guide gun after remington bought them out and it was terrible. I took it to my gunsmith and he got it working. You could not even load through the loading gate or cycle ammo. After he fixed it I was so discusted I just sold it.
I also bought a new remington 700 cdl last fall. It seems ok so far but I had surgery right after I bought it so I still have not finished sighting it in. Don't yet know how it will shoot.
I think the overseas observation is valad, What with winchester being made in japan, & browning as well. Arn't some parts sourced out overseas? Most optics seem to be any more........... :o
Regards,
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some of it probably came from the sps line. They were made to be competive in price and the fit and finish isnt the best on them. That been said ive got one in 3006 that will shoot 3/4 inch 5 shot groups at a 100 yards. Not bad for a sporter weight 06 at any price level.
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Isn't Winchester getting their rifles build in Japan? There may be others that at least bring some of their stuff in from overseas.
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Lloyd, I haven't even looked in the box stores at their remingtons. But your probably right, if they have a cheeper line that could be the problem. Graybeard says he has not noticed a decline in quality but the one bolt gun he mentioned was a cdl which I'm thinking is their better, more expensive, line. The 257bob I bought last year was a cdl as well and its fit & finish looks ok. I believe I'm close to being recovered enough to start shooting it some now.
I know the Marlin boys were sure upset about the QC right after the sell out to rimington. Marlinowners still has a rant forum to adress that issue.
I know their express shotgun line is not as nice as the older wingmasters. The one my kids gave me years ago worked ok though. ;)
Regards,
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Heck pastorp ive noticed marlins going downhill well before remington took them over.
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What are you talking about? What in the current line up of Remington Firearms are made overseas?
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GB - I think that scatterbrain is talking about the "Spartan" line of guns by Remington. They are made by Baikal and imported from Russia, by Remington. Also the Remington Genesis BP rifle was made for Remington, by I believe, Traditions, a Spanish company. Both lines have the Remington name rollmarked on the guns.
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all of the spartan shotguns and the mauser actioned rilfles and there newest bolt 22 are all made oversees
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You guys are talking ancient history I believe. The Spartan line is no longer being imported to my knowledge. That failed experiment only last a couple years I think. The Mauser rifles were also dropped after a short run. I dunno about the muzzle loader you mention. I've never seen one and for sure am not looking for one.
Let's discuss what they are doing not what they once upon a short time did.
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Cerberus Capital Management, L.P. is one of the largest private equity investment firms in the United States. The firm is based in New York City and among other things they own Remington.
Remington quality and accuracy has never been better. None of their current products are made overseas.
It's pretty clear that the average gun owner knows very little about what's going on with the American firearms industry.
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Heck pastorp ive noticed marlins going downhill well before remington took them over.
A very true statement. I've even owned 1970s and 1980s Marlins that were very poorly fit and finished.
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I know their express shotgun line is not as nice as the older wingmasters.
They still make Wingmasters. The Express model is to compete with overseas junk and Mossberg. It does that well for a very reasonable price. Mine functions as well as any of my Wingmasters.
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Traditions Yukon muzzle loader (photo's 1, 2, 3) & Remington Genesis muzzle loader (4).
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Remington quit importing them several years ago because of all the problems they had with them.
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I'm going to Savage..getting the accutrigger as a free bonus !
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Not sure why anyone would want an "accutrigger' but it's your choice.
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bill im guilty of not keeping up with the manufactures. I based my statement of the fact that my local dealer has new examples of each of them on the shelf still. I just took for granted they had been aquired recently and may have been as im sure the suppliers still have them
You guys are talking ancient history I believe. The Spartan line is no longer being imported to my knowledge. That failed experiment only last a couple years I think. The Mauser rifles were also dropped after a short run. I dunno about the muzzle loader you mention. I've never seen one and for sure am not looking for one.
Let's discuss what they are doing not what they once upon a short time did.
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Seems to me that it was only 3-4 years ago that Remington was importing the Russian made double rifles. And they are owned by a investment Corp. I could be wrong but I believe ruger is the only gun mfg. Not owned by one of these investment corp. in the USA.
S&W is owned by one I believe and there has been a lot of weeping & gnashing of teeth over their built in gunlocks and air weight models. Seems anything new is resited. Personally I think the new S&W guns are fitted better and are more accurate than the old models ever were. I like them so much that I own about 6 and have not had any problems with the dreaded lock. I just never use it. Treat it like it's not there.
Too bad about Thompson center & Winchester though. I for one hope they survive.
Regards,
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Winchester is doing fine in South Carolina. T/C wasted too much money on TV shows, advertising, and boltaction rifles that nobody wanted.
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Heck pastorp ive noticed marlins going downhill well before remington took them over.
A very true statement. I've even owned 1970s and 1980s Marlins that were very poorly fit and finished.
So that new Guide gun is the greatest thing you just bought ? I mean why waste one's time if it were not up to parr .
If you read your posts over the years I see many times were you have said one thing , then turned around to say another . So it shows your just a trol in my book .
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Not sure why anyone would want an "accutrigger' but it's your choice.
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One of the reasons Savages have a great reputation for accuracy..
How much do some guys pay for a Timney or rifle basix ? ;) :D
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Harry ill go to his defense. Personaly i dont think i know that marlins quality has come down over the last 10 years. I also know that quality control at ruger is about non existant. Does it keep me from buying them. Hell no! There still making guns that nobody else will make in chamberings nobody else will do. What other choise does a guy have for a reasonable priced 4570 levergun or a 44 mag single action. I buy them with open eyes. Knowing that im not buying some jewel and that those companys dont have the sun rising and setting on them like some think. I know theres a good chance that about a 1/3 of them will need a trip back to the factory and about every one of them will need me to spend some more money to get it to where it pleases me. It just angers me that with about a 2 minute inspection about half these problems would be caught and corrected. It isnt the way these companys think though. They ship them all out knowing that about half of them wont be ever shot or will maybe have a box or two of ammo shot out of them by inexperiecned gun owners that wouldnt know a mistake if it bit them on the nose. Then the 1/2 that get sent back are sent to service reps that are schooled in giving excuses as to why its not bad enough to fix and they ship it right back hopping you will give up. They probably figure that fixing the few guns that come from guys that wont give up is cheaper then improving there quality control to the point these guns dont exist. These companys are run by bean counters not gun people. I talked to a servicer rep at ruger just the other day. Now this is a many who makes his living fixing rugers. Youd think hed be a gun nut? Nope. He told me he had never handloaded a single round of ammo in his life. Now how many gunsmiths do you know that havent handloaded? Like i said i dont bitch. Ill send them back as long as they do fix them and ill put a few more dollars into a gun to get what i like but i wont sit here and brag on manufactures that put out products like that. They get away with it where no one else can. Just look at the bashing toyota took lately because of a few flaws. Heck if that was the case ruger, marlin and even remington and a few more would be on tv every night.
Heck pastorp ive noticed marlins going downhill well before remington took them over.
A very true statement. I've even owned 1970s and 1980s Marlins that were very poorly fit and finished.
So that new Guide gun is the greatest thing you just bought ? I mean why waste one's time if it were not up to parr .
If you read your posts over the years I see many times were you have said one thing , then turned around to say another . So it shows your just a trol in my book .
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Isn't Winchester getting their rifles build in Japan? There may be others that at least bring some of their stuff in from overseas.
Some are being made at the FN facility in the south either GA or SC. I forget where FN makes all the Machine guns for the Army.
FN owns Winchester and Browning
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Gunsmiths who have used Remington actions to build benchrest rifles have related that Remingtons quality control has gone down over the past 10 years.
The are having to do more precision machining and accuracy work than before when building super accurate rifles useing the 700 action as a basis.
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If you read your posts over the years I see many times were you have said one thing , then turned around to say another .
It just means you have poor comprehension skills.
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The are having to do more precision machining and accuracy work than before when building super accurate rifles useing the 700 action as a basis.
Like mount a scope, and pull the trigger.
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The are having to do more precision machining and accuracy work than before when building super accurate rifles useing the 700 action as a basis.
Like mount a scope, and pull the trigger.
As technology advances and production tequiniques are changed to use less materials or time in production to make a gun accurate enough to get the job done.
As far as hunting rifles 1" groups tat 100 yards are more than accurate enough for hunting.
sub 1" groups are accurate enough for police snipers who shoot under 60 yards on average.
The bench rest shooters want a sub .25" group at 100 yards. The construction of those guns are differnt than your basic hunting rifle.
Reminton products are strong and accurate, but not stronger or more accurate than needs to be.
Much like race cars are completly different than your standard coup or SUV and only share a few componets and a name.
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mcwoodduck;
Right on you are !
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A Model 700 Police Sniper Rifle is made exactly like a Model 700 hunting rifle and on the same equipment. Both will shoot 1/2 MOA groups right out of the box. The "Sniper" versions have heavy barrels as do some Model 700 hunting rifles.
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remingtom m24s for the miltary and for police depts come from there custom shot not from the standard production line. barrels are hand selected actions are trued along with many other tweaks a normal model 700 doesnt recieve. I believe there using pillar bedded mcmillian stocks lately and there not standard rem pieces either. Then they go to the military armors and get even more tweeks. Hardly an out of the box 700 hunting or varmt rifle.
A Model 700 Police Sniper Rifle is made exactly like a Model 700 hunting rifle and on the same equipment. Both will shoot 1/2 MOA groups right out of the box. The "Sniper" versions have heavy barrels as do some Model 700 hunting rifles.
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Very very few police depts other than federal agents have M24s. They can't afford them.
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Very very few police depts other than federal agents have M24s. They can't afford them.
The police snipers rarely shoot past 60 yards and even with a 1.5" group at 100 yards it will be sub 3/4" at 50 yards.
As I said earlier the engineers at Remington make the rifles as accurate as possible and as affordable as possible.
The 700 police guns interest me and one would be a great addition to my collection.
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I remember reading a while back about a swat team specing out a sniper rifle and there criteria was that it shot at least 3 inch at a 100 yards. A guy could mount a scope on a 94 and do that well. Which brings up something a bit comical. The local sherrifs dept just got there first ar for the squad car before that it was 870s and 94 winchesters.
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A regular old 700P will shoot 1/4MOA groups all day long. It's nothing special.
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Come on now swampy, it's starting to get pretty deep in here.
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Come on now swampy, it's starting to get pretty deep in here.
When you sight in at 25 yards like most southern boys do, 1/4" or less groups are possible all day long.
I asked why they shoot at 25 yards to sight in. They say the ballistics are the same as 100 yards and why walk across the field if you don't have to.
:o
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Come on now swampy, it's starting to get pretty deep in here.
When you sight in at 25 yards like most southern boys do, 1/4" or less groups are possible all day long.
I asked why they shoot at 25 yards to sight in. They say the ballistics are the same as 100 yards and why walk across the field if you don't have to.
:o
I learned in Florida they hunt from elevation since you can't see more that 10 yards at ground level, so a 25 yards is a stretch indeed.
yooper77
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We have plenty of places where you can shoot 400-500 yards.
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While credit must be given to Remington for a very strong action which has been used many years by the military, the basic model Remington rifles are highly modified by or for the military. Remember, the problem with Rem misfires was recently highlighted by a military armorer, who said that was one of the points they made sure was eliminated in their modifications This debate over bolt action rifles may in the near future, prove to be a moot point. Looks like the Army is going semi auto for their standardized sniper rifle. The M110 acheived a regular .65 MOA ans has the extra benefit of followup shots..for group engagement or in case of a near miss.
http://www.military.com/forums/0,15240,146717,00.html
As mcwoodduck said, the police don't require the accuracy such as id required by a varmint rifle such as a Savage model 12, or even the accuracy desired by a varmint hunting AR15...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNG2w2TADus
Although I am not sure of how much and what degree by models it is done, the Matrines rework all their sniper rifles at Quantico. My grandson, whose MOS is armorer once considered working at the shop ther, but ended elsewhere. While serving in Al Anbar, he and his best friend were designated snipers for their unit. For this purpose, he built a "hand-select" M-16 base rifles.
BTW: This is the 4th paragraph of that first article (Military.com);
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" Being a highly modified Model 700 Remington bolt-action repeating rifle, the M24 is capable of great precision accuracy. However, lessons were relearned in Somalia and in target-rich environments encountered in the G-WOT that a self-loading rifle can be fired in succession 4 to 5 times faster than a bolt action rifle. Thus, the Army was determined to standardize a semi-automatic sniper rifle."
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swampy has either only been at this for a couple years and has gotten lucky at the draw when it comes to the remingtons hes bought or wades through a constant pile. Ive owne many many remington 700s. I own 7 right now. Id say out of all of them half were moa guns a 1/4 of them a bit better and a 1/4 of them would never shoot moa. I can honestly say ive never had one much worse the 1.5 inch at a 100 though. Now swampy this isnt my first rodeo. Ive been loading for 40 years and using 700 that long. the first gun i loaded for was a 6mm classic 700. I here you all the time claim that all it takes is factory corelocks. Well my guns dont just get factory ammo. theres a couple guys on here that have seen my loading setup. Ive probably got as much money in just bullets as most have into there pickup. When i test a new gun it gets tried with at leas 10 differnt bullets. Brands and weights (corelocks too) and with many powder and primer combos. Sorry BUT THERES NO WAY IN HELL THAT ANYONE CAN GET SUB MOA ACCURACY OUT OF EVERY GUN HE BUYS WITH THE SAME BOX OF CORELOCKS!!! 700S are great guns (my favorite rifle) and corelock ammo is good ammo. But no two guns in the same caliber ive ever owned like the same factory ammo so well that both shot 3/4 inch groups. As a matter of fact ive rarely found a out of the box gun that would do sub moa with any factory ammo. Your a lucky sob if it happens once and you more likely to get struck by lightning then to have it happen more then once and you can do it every (censored word) time. Your pickup probably gets 25 mpg too as we know your to intellegent to buy one that doesnt! You might convince the hillbilly at the local watering hole that your guns all shoot like that but theres at least a couple of us that know your blowing hot air here. Yes you can come back and say that yes you do it all the time. The internet makes it real easy to be anything your little brain can dream up and difficult to prove wrong. I dont know why i dont just ignore your bs. I know better. I guess i just hate the fact that there are some inexperienced guys on here that dont and might actually think you know what your talking about. Do us all a favor and give it a rest. Your word as a man is your most important atribute. You seem to know some good info when it comes to guns. Why dont you try sticking to that and helping people instead of trying to inflate your ego.
Come on now swampy, it's starting to get pretty deep in here.
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More on the new M110;
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2011/03/marine-corps-sniper-rifle-m110-031711w/
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/armyweapons/a/m110.htm
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heres my reloading room swampy. I sure wish i could sell it all and buy a couple boxes of corelocks. Hell i could afford a new truck and a new boat too!!
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Lloyd;
That sure is a beautiful setup..I can see where there is much invested.. Makes my reloading setup look like "tinker toy' stuff ! ;) :D
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Nothing wrong with reloads I reload to save money. The thing is you need a benchmark for accuracy and factory ammo is the benchmark. I'm constantly having folks come to me with firearms problems both function and accuracy. My first question is how does it shoot with Remington factory ammo. If they don't know how it shoots with factory ammo I tell them to buy some and get back to me. 90% of the time there's nothing wrong with the gun. Factory ammo is vastly superior to what it was even 10 years ago. Reloads are only as good as the person that assembled them, and frequently that's not so good.
My advise is to not over think things. Therein lies most of our troubles. This hobby is very simple and easy.
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Nothing wrong with factory ammo for some folks, but its not for me.
I haven’t bought center fire ammo for over 25 years since I save tons of money and can tailor my hand loads. I love this hobby and it comes with the satisfaction that all my game is harvested using my hand loads. Obviously I start at the powder manufacturers minimum starting load and work towards the maximum load in order to achieve the best accuracy. Most of the time I find the most accurate load before I even reach the maximum load.
yooper77
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A Model 700 Police Sniper Rifle is made exactly like a Model 700 hunting rifle and on the same equipment. Both will shoot 1/2 MOA groups right out of the box. The "Sniper" versions have heavy barrels as do some Model 700 hunting rifles.
Which is the truth..
.A regular old 700P will shoot 1/4MOA groups all day long. It's nothing special.
Truth is neither one will always do this. A few might. This kind of blanket statements are misleading & false. I suggest you quit misleading the inexperienced members on this forum. Why not be honest swampy. You keep saying you just report the facts but some of us have owned enough guns for enough years to know you are lying.
Regards,
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Lloyd, awesome reloading room !! The only thing I saw wrong with it was the Dale Jr. sign. ;D Don't get worked up over Swampman, most people with more than a couple years of shooting and reloading experience knows the truth. I'm a remington fan and have a old heavy-barreled model 700 22-250 that will shoot in the .3's for five shots with reloads. It took a trigger adjustment and glass bedding the action to get it there. I will never sell it because I know a factory rifle that shoots groups that little is a rare thing. For a heavy-barreled gun my goal is .5 moa. For sporter-barrels its under 1 moa. Of course most of the time its only reached after a trigger adjustment and some proper reloads are worked up, and sometimes some glass bedding too.
Dave
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Hmmmmmmm...
Regular old 700Ps that shoot 1/4 MOA all day long ... don't know what to say about that other than I need to get some taller boots because I've just waded into to some serious B.S. Stop being a troll, if you don't know, don't make it up. I know that you get a kick Swampy out of getting under other member's skin, but I'd hate to actually have you start influencing new shooters/members with that hogwash. I have seen a factory freak or two, but most "consistant" 1/4 MOA rifles have considerable work done to them, and most groups are shot during good weather conditions. 1/2 MOA is attainable right out of the box, but I'd be more willing to bet against you for say five groups of (5) shots each shot in one string.
I've also yet to ever see an actual compilation of police sniper shooting data to confirm or deny the 50-60yd distance that is continuously referenced. It seems like a reasonable assumption of distance though, but if someone can provide hard data to that reference I'd be happy to read up on it (no gun magazine writers quotes either).
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A Model 700 Police Sniper Rifle is made exactly like a Model 700 hunting rifle and on the same equipment. Both will shoot 1/2 MOA groups right out of the box. The "Sniper" versions have heavy barrels as do some Model 700 hunting rifles.
Which is the truth..
.A regular old 700P will shoot 1/4MOA groups all day long. It's nothing special.
Both, read the statements......If you guys can't shoot it ain't my fault...
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I wish someone from the forums could go visit swampy and call his bluff. It sure would be interesting to hear the excuses start flying why he couldn't back up his internet bravado.
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Next time I go back to my home state maybe I will have time to do that. ;) there is a guy that shoots of his mouth on 24 hour camp fire that was in the coastguard stationed in Ketchikan. One day at the pawn shop I met him. Knew who he was as soon as he told me his Internet handle. He was a little scrawney guy in person and quiet and well spoken, not anything like he was on the fire.
Swampy might be a great guy in person. :o maybe........but all his outlandish statements wear thin on here.
Regards
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I've never made an outlandish statement. I've been shooting since I was 6, that's about 50 years. I started reloading when I was eight. Between Uncle Sam and shooting High Power I got better. I shot my first 1/4 MOA group in 1976 using a .30-06 sporter and my own handloads. It's not very hard.
My weapon of choice is the Model 700 boltgun when I mean business.....because it's the best there is.....IMO.
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See what I mean....... ;)
Regards,
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Well I thought it over Swampy and next time I get down to Panama City, don't think thats far from you, I'll buy your breakfast. :o You do like biscuitts & gravy don't ya............ :)
Don't think I'll make it this year with all the medical my wife & I have had last year & this year.. but probably next year.
Regards,
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Let me know, I'd love to meet you.
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OK, sounds good to me as well. :)
Regards,
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Glad to see friendships develop beyond the web.. hope you guys can meet up soon.
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Where are you at Swampy? I'm not on here much anymore, but am still stationed at LeJeune. I might just have a few years of competitive shooting and marksmanship instruction under my belt and would be more than happy to shoot with you some day.
I too choose the 700 as my rifle of choice, but mostly because it gives me a platform to build off of, not becasue I'm in love with the factory stuff.
With all of these magical factory sporter/varmint 1/4MOA rifles out there I'm amazed I've never seen one show up at any of the matches I've been too.
I guess I'll just patiently wait on Swampy's next review of his 1/2MOA 870.
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let me tell you little story about your so called match quality corelock ammo. I too have had decent luck, read that decent, not match quality with it. A couple years ago my buddys gunshop went out of bussiness and he called me and said come over and take what you want of what left. It was mostly ammo he had and alot of it was corelocks. there was 8 boxes of corelock 280 165 grain. I knew i wouldnt use those almost round nosed 165s but figured id pull the bullets use the powder for fertilizer and reuse the brass. Heck it was free. Well i got pulling bullets and got curious as to what powder they used. So i shot a couple accross the chrono to get a ball park velocity figure. I shot three and there was 130 fps differnce between the fastest and slowest. I averaged the results and figured out they were probably using 4831. I began pulling bullets and checked each box seperately in case they were differnt lots. I wanted to find out why there was such a big extream spread. Weighting all 20 rounds from each box i found the worse box had a differnce in 6 full grains from the lightest to the heaviest charge and the best box had a differnce of 3 full grains. Now if this would have been tenths of a grain i wouldnt have thought twice but 6 FULL GRAINS!!! this wasnt a freek bad batch either as there were 4 differnt lot nos. of ammo. I had a box federal 150 grain red box 308s there and just out of curiousity pulled those bullets and found a simular stick powder. I never did chrono them to see which it was but there was .2 of differnce in weight between the heaviest and lightest charge. Makes a guy wonder how that corelock ammo does even close to as good as it does. So if im going to use a base line to compare my handloads its surely isnt corelocks. I might try some fed premium or some of the black box ww or even some of the newer premium rem but anyone with a press and a box of corelocks can produce much better ammo without even trying then remington does with there standard corelock ammo . Reloads not as good because of who is loading them? youd have to be about the biggest oaf that ever loaded to swing charge weights worse then remington does. At least with there 280 ammo. theres a good reason they sell that stuff at walmart for 15 bucks a box
Nothing wrong with reloads I reload to save money. The thing is you need a benchmark for accuracy and factory ammo is the benchmark. I'm constantly having folks come to me with firearms problems both function and accuracy. My first question is how does it shoot with Remington factory ammo. If they don't know how it shoots with factory ammo I tell them to buy some and get back to me. 90% of the time there's nothing wrong with the gun. Factory ammo is vastly superior to what it was even 10 years ago. Reloads are only as good as the person that assembled them, and frequently that's not so good.
My advise is to not over think things. Therein lies most of our troubles. This hobby is very simple and easy.
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watch out swampy the marines are comming!!
Where are you at Swampy? I'm not on here much anymore, but am still stationed at LeJeune. I might just have a few years of competitive shooting and marksmanship instruction under my belt and would be more than happy to shoot with you some day.
I too choose the 700 as my rifle of choice, but mostly because it gives me a platform to build off of, not becasue I'm in love with the factory stuff.
With all of these magical factory sporter/varmint 1/4MOA rifles out there I'm amazed I've never seen one show up at any of the matches I've been too.
I guess I'll just patiently wait on Swampy's next review of his 1/2MOA 870.
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Lloyd I have always used Federal Gold Medal Match ammo for a baseline in my newly acquired rifles.
My Marlin 1895 done very well however with 405 and 300 gr corelocks also my Mini 30 seems to like them as well. But as general rule I have not found Remington corelocks or their extended range ammo very accurate. All most any reasonably well put together hand load will out perform corelocks factory ammo. Aside from using Remington brass in my 45/70 and 7.62x39 Remington load components have shown to be quite poor performers in the accuracy dept. This not a dig at anyone just personal observations.
Pat
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Not a super huge fan of Remington ammo either, or components. Bought 500 virgin cases for my .260 about a year ago and was actually surprised that 90% of the cases were within a grain or two of each other. Flash holes were a different story as probably 40% of them visually looked out of center. Then came the part where seating primers became a real task as 30% of the primer pockets were so out of round that they sheared off parts of the primer cups themselves. Fortunately I had a dillon swage tool.
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Hooker and Lloyd,
I agree with your analysis of factory ammo. What Swampman does not seem to understand that there is a reason why Lloyd has that fantastic loading room. My shop is not nearly as neat as Lloyds, but I have a substancial investment in loading equipment and dies (over 50 sets of reloading dies) having narrowed my equipment down to those that suit me over the years as a reloader over 40 years now. A big Redding compound press and and Old compound C&H press for the really heavy duty stuff for example.
Points on reloading:
1. I inspect each case before anything is done to it after any needed cleaning is done.
2. debur and chafer the necks before sizing.
3. lubricate and size and wipe the lubricant off twice.
4. Seat primers one at a time using a Lee hand priming tool.
5. Visually check the seating on each primed case.
6. Set my Redding powder measure using a Pacific scale, for the final setting throw and measure at last five trial loads on the scale before filling any cases
using the powder measure.
7. Fill the cases with powder one at a time, getting a feel from the powder measure handle as to how the powder is metering through the measure.
8. Once 20 rounds are in the loading block, visually check each and every case to see that the powder level is the same in each case.
Any questionable ones are dumped and repowdered and checked again.
9. seat bullets checking for the same feel for pressure when seating the bullets to avoid loose/worn brass case necks.
10. visually check each round for bullet delpth, or any damaged necks from bullet seating.
11. Go to the range and test any new loading data loads for accuracy.
My size dies are preset for neck sizing only and my seating dies are set so the bullet is just shy of touching the lands when chambered in each individual rifle.
Ball powders meter through the powder measure much better than the big stick powders like 4831, you have to rethrow more charges when using stick powder to keep the power loads in the case consistent. If I can get a good accurate load with ball powder, I prefer to use it for that reason.
If you believe that Remington or any other ammunition makers takes the pains that I do when loading ammo, then I have a piece of Swamp Land at the North Pole for you Swampman, its for sale.
The only consistent 1/4 inch guns I have owned have been full blown benchrest rifles, never seen a factory rifle capable of 1/4 inch groups for five shots at 100 yards period. One may exist but I have not seen it.
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I've been doing all thit since the mid-1960s. I weigh all my rifle charges though. A powder throw is ok for pistols.
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The only consistent 1/4 inch guns I have owned have been full blown benchrest rifles, never seen a factory rifle capable of 1/4 inch groups for five shots at 100 yards period. One may exist but I have not seen it.
For the most part I agree with your statement quoted above. The CONSISTENT part is the killer. Factory rifles just can't do that and I don't care who the manufacturer is.
Now I have had several Remington M700 varmint rifles in .223 that will shoot five shot quarter inch groups SOMETIMES. I developed the loads for them after much shooting to determine what the rifle wanted and got lots of five shot groups in the .2s and .3s but I also got a lot in the .4s and .5s and even from time to time 0.75" type groups. If ya wanted to say consistently under three quarters of an inch rather than one quarter I've had several. I've never had one that was a consistent quarter inch shooter.
I weigh all my rifle charges though. A powder throw is ok for pistols.
Yer lack of knowledge of all things shooting is showing again swampy. Benchrest competitors don't weight their charges they throw them from a measure and no one shoots smaller groups than top rated bench rest competitors.
I've experimented extensively and find that with the guns I've owned I can actually shoot smaller groups with thrown than weighted charges. I've proven it with several of the best shooting guns I've owned. The benchrest shooters know it.
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My benchrest powder measure is a Belding & Mull, it has a micrometer adjustable drop tube that allows you to record the settings and go back to it without having to use a powder scale once the initial charge is determined. With a drop tube you can be assured of consistent charges by volume, but it requires that you use a powder funnel in the case neck when pouring the powder from the drop tube into the case. I only use it for benchrest loads for hunting loads my Redding measure is ok seldom have any issues with charges thrown with it.
I have fired five, five shot groups that averaged less than .2 tenths of an inch and still lost the match by a few thousanths. Try that with factory loads of any brand.
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I'll keep weighing mine. None of the powders I use would work in one of those things anyway.
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I've been doing all thit since the mid-1960s. I weigh all my rifle charges though. A powder throw is ok for pistols.
Let me get this straight Swampy, you were and accomplished reloader when you were 10 years old?wow........
Well when I was 10 I always put salt on my bullets because I shot my game from so far a distance I had to salt them to keep them from spoiling before I could get to them...honest.... ::) I jokes
Swampy, you better go take your meds!
Regards,
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I was reloading before I was 10. My brother taught me when he came back from Vietnam. He had a Model 600 in .243 and we reloaded for it at the kitchen table.
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greybeard made a good point and it could possibly explain some of swampys high opinion on his guns. Ive got many guns that have shot a tiny group of two. Ive seen a 5 shot 1/2 groups out of a gun one day and the next group go 2 inch. Now if i loved to brag i guess i could tell everyone that that gun is a 1/2 moa shooter and be honest because it did. Now take that 1/4 inch gun and sit the same day with the same ammo and shoot 10 5 shot groups at a 100 yards and average them and come back and tell me your gun is a 1/4 inch shooter. Come back and even tell me its a 1/2 inch shooter and buddy im going to tell you your full of ###!!! Maybe a custom bench rest gun but not a factory varmit rifle and surely not a factory sporter weight hunting rilfe.
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Swampy,
Great that you started so early, however you make blanket statements without qualification that show a lack of knowledge when it comes to reloading and you miss state the accuracy of factory rifles and never provide details.
Here is how I test my rifles and reloads.
.308 Norma Mag H450 powder, 165 grain Sierra, 4 consecutive groups .532, .617, .750, .555 velocity 3018 FPS
.308 Norma Mag H450 powder, 150 Nosler BT, 2 groups .762, .572 Velocity 3320 FPS
.338 Winchester Mag, H450 powder, 200 grain Speer 2 groups .322, .348 velocity 2881 FPS
Yes, those of us who are serious maintain a reloaders log and provide details and post actual groups on our reloading room walls to back up our statements.
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I've been doing all that since 1977. Sadly most folks have no idea how good cheap factory ammo is. They are still stuck in their outdated way of thinking. Reloading is good for calibers that you can't find ammo for, or to save money.
Factory rifles and factory ammo are amazing. You can tinker but rarely improve on them.
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Well Swampy post the groups.... ;) say happy birthday to the good old USA.
What's everyone doing for the 4th? Our local parade starts @ 10. It's only 7 here in the last frontier.
Enjoy your holiday everyone.
Regards,
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Everyone have a great fourth of July 2011!
Even the cheapest factory ammo is very expensive in my opinion. I am successful on hand loading 5 cartridges that are available almost everywhere. The 223 Remington, 243 Winchester, 270 Winchester, 7mm-08 Remington and 308 Winchester and I would never dream of buying factory ammo instead.
I hand load 5 cartridges which is either very expensive, hard and/or impossible to find factory ammo, so it’s a good thing I don’t need too. The 257 Weatherby Magnum, 270 Weatherby Magnum, 7x57 Mauser Ackley Improved, 30-06 Springfield Ackley Improved, and of course my favorite the 338-06 A-Square.
Years ago I have looked at Remington bulk core-lokt bullets, but passed on them and mostly use Hornady Inter-lock bullets as my standard cup and core performer.
Thompson Center Encore in 223 Remington, Remington 700 SPS in 22-250 Remington, Ruger M77 MKII in 270 Winchester, Weatherby Mark V Sporter in 7mm-08 Remington and Weatherby Mark V Ultra Lightweight in 338-06 A-Square are all great shooters with my hand loads and no tinkering was needed.
The other cartridges I have which are the 243 Winchester, 7x57 Mauser Ackley Improved and 30-06 Springfield Ackley Improved are built on German Mauser actions sporterized by a gun smith of my father’s choice before I was born.
The only brass I use for the above cartridges are:
223 Remington brass for the same
22-250 Remington brass for the same
(Was my father in-laws Remington 700 ADL I converted to SPS)
243 Winchester brass for the same
270 Winchester brass for the same and 7x57 Mauser Ackley Improved
308 Winchester brass for the same and 7mm-08 Remington
(308 Winchester is my friends Remington 788, no tinkering was needed)
30-06 Springfield brass for the 30-06 Springfield Ackley Improved and 338-06 A-Square.
257 Weatherby Magnum for the same.
(My friends Weatherby Vanguard, he buys the factory brass and no tinkering was needed).
270 Weatherby Magnum for the same.
(My friends Weatherby Mark V Ultra Lightweight, he buys the factory brass and no tinkering was needed).
yooper77
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I buy Core-Lokts for $14.95 a box in the fall. You can get a rebate on that from Remington.
That's how I get my brass....
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Hay swampy, have you ever googles your screen name? You do know there is a real Swampman living in Florida don't you. :o he's used that name for quite a while. Maybe you should change your handle to something original. ;)
Regards,
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The real Swampman is also known as the Skunk Ape he lives in this area.
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Ever meet him?
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A good friend of mine has. A deputy and about 20 folks at an outdoor party just north of here did. I've heard things that I could not explain, and I've spent thousands of hours in these woods. I believe he exist.
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Swampy, every culture has legends about bigfoot type creatures. Yet there are no real evidence except footprints & sightings. Neither can be proved. I believe something exists but it's not flesh & blood. ;) have you ever met the strong man?
Regards,
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I got to say i believe in him as much as i do 1/4 inch remingtons anyway. :P
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Well, just look at the groups posted on the Faux KS thread, Unless those were at 400+ yards I'd call that a 1-11/2 MOA gun [ It was probably 600yrds ::) ]. If I dropped the coin he did on a McMillan stock and Zeiss scope, I'd be embarrassed to show those, especially with all the 1/4 MOA guns floating around ;D .
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It's not a factory rifle. As I posted, it shoots a lot worse than it did right out of the box. I fully expected that. I doubt it will ever shoot the way it did when I bought it.
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I guess that begs the question, if it shot so good out of the box why mess with it?. I thought the only rifles needing tinkering weren't Remingtons ;) Seems like a lot of dough to be tinkering around with for an average group gun, but than again it's only money. Like my dad says "You never see an armored car following a hearse" spend it while you got it!
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It was the most accurate hunting rifle I've ever owned or seen. I felt it deserved a better stock, scope, and mounts. I fully expected that anything I did to it would hurt it's accuracy. I was right. Still those groups were shot with factory ammo from a scalding hot barrel. I fired three 3 shot groups in about 3 minutes and all were less than 1". The primers were cratering because of the heat. This is my anywhere in the world kill anything rifle. It will still outshoot 95% of the hunting rifles I've owned or sighted in for customers. I can live with it. I have little doubt that it will still shoot 1/4" groups if I let the barrel cool for 5 minutes between shots.
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These were the first shots taken with my handloads in my Remington. The rifle was sighted in with Federal GMM 168 gr factory ammo
First load tested, this gun was right out of the box even the trigger was left at factory settings.
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j239/hookerbob/4-4-2009105111PM.jpg)
Not to bad for new rifle and a starter load.
Pat
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As has already been said a couple of groups don't mean the gun will always do that. Keep a log & when you have averaged a 100 groups report back........... ;)
Regards,
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The more you shoot it, the more accurate it will get.
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As has already been said a couple of groups don't mean the gun will always do that. Keep a log & when you have averaged a 100 groups report back........... ;)
Regards,
Your right those are the largest groups that rifle has fired to date.
Of course it's had a few refinements done to it since then and the load has been tweaked a bit.
I'd post some newer targets but some don't believe that a Remington will group that small and some don't believe that they require any refinements to make them shoot better.
Pat
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Glad to see I'm not the only one not getting real good groups with my rems. Last rem got 2-3" groups@ 100 yds. At 200 it was at 6". The Rem before was a 22-250 and never really got under 1" @ 100 yds. Rem before that was an old one and shot .6-1" . Traded my last Rem for a Tikka t3 and shoots groups half the size so far. My new Savage 12fv is barely a 1.2" @ 200 yds. Avr. I still don't know how so many get .5 @ 100 " all day long" I'm sure it's lots of bs from the internet legends.
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Glad to see I'm not the only one not getting real good groups with my rems. Last rem got 2-3" groups@ 100 yds. At 200 it was at 6". The Rem before was a 22-250 and never really got under 1" @ 100 yds. Rem before that was an old one and shot .6-1" . Traded my last Rem for a Tikka t3 and shoots groups half the size so far. My new Savage 12fv is barely a 1.2" @ 200 yds. Avr. I still don't know how so many get .5 @ 100 " all day long" I'm sure it's lots of bs from the internet legends.
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Say ihookem;
That's going to be tough for Swampy to take...
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I'd rather use a sharp stick than a Savage or a Tikka.
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(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j239/hookerbob/Avatars/TheDog.gif)
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(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j239/hookerbob/Avatars/TheDog.gif)
Ya know it really is......but.....I kinda feel the same way about the Savage and Tikka. Just too dang ugly for me to bring one home.
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The Savage may be ugly but they sure do shoot good. ;D
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Guess it all boils down what is morre important; how it looks or how it shoots !
I know full well that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder"..I really don't see where the savage is so ugly. It would seem to me the smooth transition of the barrel nut along with the interchangable barrels, wouls add to the rifle on both counts. ...But that's just my $.02...and what's beauty to one is ugly to another.
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ive got to kind of agree. Ive bought savages for my grandkids because there a cheap accurate rifle. If they want something fancier they can buy it themselves. Personaly i like a good looking rifle and wouldnt hunt with one myself. to many good looking guns in the safe so why would i want to hunt with a homely one. they may cost a bit more but ive had just as good of luck with remingtons, winchesters, rugers (to a point) and weatherbys. No doubt if someone asked me advice on buying a very accurate rifle for 300 bucks id say go find a savage but i just dont buy 300 dollar guns for myself. As far as a tika goes ive never owned one so i cant really give a first hand recomendation but although there not quite as ugly as a savage they have kind of a funky look to them that i dont like.
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The 788's didn't look pretty either but they sure shot well.
My Handi with that survivor style butt isn't a beauty queen either. ;)
The only two rifles I got that could pass as Runner-ups in the Beauty Contest would be a Ruger 77 and a Rem 742.
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Guess it all boils down what is morre important; how it looks or how it shoots !
Yep, and that's why I choose the Model 700.
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I have to agree a lot of newer rifles are ugly as a mud fence.
Pat
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Squirrel, woodchuck, hog or grizzly...none of them notice the "looks" of the rifle. ;) ;D ;D
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Squirrel, woodchuck, hog or grizzly...none of them notice the "looks" of the rifle. ;) ;D ;D
Some critters have no taste
When I carry my Southern Longrifle it attracts a better class of animals. ;D
Pat
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Squirrel, woodchuck, hog or grizzly...none of them notice the "looks" of the rifle. ;) ;D ;D
Some critters have no taste
When I carry my Southern Longrifle it attracts a better class of animals. ;D
Pat
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What ? ....Armadillos ?... ;) ;D ;D
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Squirrel, woodchuck, hog or grizzly...none of them notice the "looks" of the rifle. ;) ;D ;D
Squirrel, woodchuck, hog or grizzly...none of them notice the "looks" of the rifle. ;) ;D ;D
Some critters have no taste
When I carry my Southern Longrifle it attracts a better class of animals. ;D
Pat
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What ? ....Armadillos ?... ;) ;D ;D
That'd be the Laughing Deer. Lookie at that man dressed up in a loin cloth and pain white legs! ahahahha! Lookie! his gun is almost as tall as he is! LOL.
Doesn't matter what the gun looks like, just as it performs well for you in the field and on the range. I mean sure, a black stock is plain but hey, its a hunting tool. Match the black stock with stainless steel and you got a decent looking rifle.
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Being an OF a good looking rifle is bedded into a nice piece of wood everything else is add on.
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The 788 at least had classic lines , and the only Plastic on them was the Safety Button ! I'd take a 788 over a plastic Savage every day of the week and twice on Sunday !!!
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I would put my Tikka 30-06 to anyone of your remington 700s ;D
I'd rather use a sharp stick than a Savage or a Tikka.
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Ethan, I agree. The Tikka I had was a shooter.......... ;)
Regards,
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nope the looks of a gun doesnt effect perfomance one bit. but im 55 years old so i dont have time to be wasting hauling an ugly gun around. An amc gremlin would get me to the store too but id prefer getting there in a vette!
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The Tikka works great for survival. If it gets too cold you can set it on fire and it will burn completely up.
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especially if you keep a can of lighter fluid in the stock right? c'mon people. remington is accurate and slick, but other guns can shoot too. if people like them, good for them. to each his own. some guys have super steady hands and strong enough fingers that they don't need a crisp, clean trigger or light, balanced rifle. just like a lot of us need scopes but some are eagle-eyed. personally, I need a slick and ergonomic rifle to shoot good in the field... most of us do, that's why remington is popular. :P
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Ok,
I don't own a Remington in my inventory of 14 centerfire rifles, but I do have a Remington .308 Winchester Barrel pulled of of a 700 Action being turned into a sleeved benchrest rifle. The Remington .308 barrel is fitted on a small ring Mexican Mauser action in a composite stock with a Lyman All American 4X scope with a cross hair and post reticule.
All of my rifles including this one with the pull off Remington barrel groups under 1 inch at 100 yards for three shots with some of them averaging under .3-.4 tenths range.
My rifles in wood stocks are as pretty as any Remington I have ever seen and that includes a Shaw barrelled .308 Norma on a Savage 110 action in a laminated walnut/maple stock.
The nicest looking Remington I have ever seen is a new left hand 700 barrelled action in 7 Mag, that I put in a AAA fancy walnut stock for a friend and it groups under 1/2 inch at 100 yards for 3 shots.
Sorry Remington does not have a monoply on anything, performance, looks or service in the field in particular.
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Sorry Remington does not have a monoply on anything, performance, looks or service in the field in particular.
Yes they do....
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no monopoly. I personaly think that winchester and ruger both make rifles as pleasing to look at as a remington. Problem is most rugers dont shoot as well and the newer winchester have priced themselves out of my buget.
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Lloyd,
I hear you making reference to fixed income and other statements refering to cost of guns. Have you retired or something that has changed your financial picture? ;) You are the same Lloyd that had all the custom handguns built a few years ago aren't you. I know what those cost...........
Regards,
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Sorry Remington does not have a monoply on anything, performance, looks or service in the field in particular.
Yes they do....
Swampman, You always have a opinion, even when there is no reason or logic for it. However it would be nice if you alowed others the same consideration... :o Wether you will admit it or not you are not the authority on everything. And your opinion counts for no more than anyone elses..
Regards,
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Swampy defends Rems like parents do with their teenage brats ;D
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Because they are the most accurate production boltaction rifles in the world. They are also the best looking IMO.
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I don't understand what all you Savage lovers are blowing smoke over here on the Remington forum. It must be a slow day at the range or all your savages are in the shop getting accrasized. I have a 700 BDL that will do .25"@ 100 out of the box and has been for forty years. I also have a thirty eight year old Savage 99 that will do 3-4" out of the box and still doe's all day long. I keep it in the safe just to remind me not to buy another. JMO.
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ya i blew my back out at work and after 5 surgerys im on disablitiy. Im not strarving by a long shot but the days of custom guns are for the most part over. Luckily i still have a bunch to play with.
Lloyd,
I hear you making reference to fixed income and other statements refering to cost of guns. Have you retired or something that has changed your financial picture? ;) You are the same Lloyd that had all the custom handguns built a few years ago aren't you. I know what those cost...........
Regards,
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eyeshot youd best be careful or swampy is going to move in with you. thats about as unfair of a comparision as ive ever seen. I dont think youll even find a savage fanatic that would claim a 99 will shoot with a 700.
I don't understand what all you Savage lovers are blowing smoke over here on the Remington forum. It must be a slow day at the range or all your savages are in the shop getting accrasized. I have a 700 BDL that will do .25"@ 100 out of the box and has been for forty years. I also have a thirty eight year old Savage 99 that will do 3-4" out of the box and still doe's all day long. I keep it in the safe just to remind me not to buy another. JMO.
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The Savage 99 won't even shoot with the Marlin 336.
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My rifles in wood stocks are as pretty as any Remington I have ever seen and that includes a Shaw barrelled .308 Norma on a Savage 110 action in a laminated walnut/maple stock.
Ya just can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. No matter how fancy you dress it up the Savage action is UGLY as sin and there is nothing ya can do to change it. A pretty stock might help draw attention away from the ugliness of the action but eventually it still draws yer eyes and hurts mine.
Yeah I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that ugly Savage action just can't be fixed. I have no clue how accurate Savage bolt guns are. I once saw two at a gun shop where I knew the owner well. I got him to let me take both home to try out to see if they were accurate enough to over come the ugly. I didn't experiment a lot just used factory ammo but neither were better than minute of milk jug at 100 yards. I took them back and don't reckon I've picked up a Savage since.
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ive yet to find a 110 that wasnt an exceptional shooter and that includes even the cheap ones but even so i cant get over that ugly action either. Ive bought a few for my grandkids cause i got good deals on them and if they get into guns enough to realize how ugly they are they can sell them and buy a nicer gun. If not they do have a good accurate serviceable rifle to hunt with the rest of there lives
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The remington bolt actions look ok but can hardly be called a thing of beauty. I would reserve that class for the british rigbys & such. The early browning safari grades mfg. by FN were nice looking bolt guns as were the Sakos.
However I'm not really a bolt gun fan. I'll take agood lever any day and live with the slight loss of accuracy. Despite the claims swampy makes we all know not every remington 700 is a 1/2" shooter. Many are 2-3" guns. ;)
Regards,
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In the hands of those who can't shoot.
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Swampy,
Several guys on here say the same thing. I believe graybeard & Lloyd can shoot and they both have noted that every remington will not shoot like you claim. This is just, "yet another of your blanket statements" that has no basis. It's easy to shoot your mouth off but not so to provide the proof. ;) ::) You go on living in your dream world, guess it makes you happy...........
Regards,
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What I believe based on 50 years of experience with hundreds of rifles, is all the proof I need. What others believe doesn't matter to me at all.
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Graybeard wrote: « Reply #125 on: Yesterday at 05:07:08 PM »
- Quote (http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php?action=post;quote=1099345922;topic=236257.120;last_msg=1099346274)
Ya just can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. No matter how fancy you dress it up the Savage action is UGLY as sin and there is nothing ya can do to change it. A pretty stock might help draw attention away from the ugliness of the action but eventually it still draws yer eyes and hurts mine.
Ok, to pretty things up I dispensed with the Savage Barrel lock nut, and installed a heavy sporter Shaw barrel with a standard barrel shoulder and taper. Reworked the bolt handle and parkerized the barrel action. I know that Lloyd hates the Savage barrel nut. It is a solid sub 1/2 shooter if I do my part from the bench. The only Remington magnum caliber rifle that I worked on that shoots as well is a left hand 700 in 7 M/M magnum that I stocked and accurized. Yes, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, You see pretty women with ugly men, and handsome men with ugly women all the time. I just don't care for stock factory rifles myself.
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I don't see a reason in spending a lot of money to build one that won't shoot as well as a Model 700 ADL from Walmart for $350.00
I wouldn't own a Savage if it were a gift.
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Your a real piece of work swampgas. You won't even alow Parkergunshop to have a opinion.
We all know how you feel but others have a right to their opinion without being harassed by you.... >:(
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Swampman,
This Savage started as a 7 M/M mag, I took it to a sporter rifle match and took the prize home over Remingtons in .243 Winchester and 6 M/M Remington. They made fun of me when I took the 7 Mag to the bench but the laughing stopped when my group was turned in to measure. After 1200 or so rounds the barrel was showing throat erosion so I rebarreled it to .308 Norma Mag.
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Your a real piece of work swampgas. You won't even alow Parkergunshop to have a opinion.
We all know how you feel but others have a right to their opinion without being harassed by you.... >:(
He knows that Remingon makes the finest and most accurate firearms in the world. He's just stiring the pot. Are you a moderator now?
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I get quite a kick out of these threads, as far as I am concerned most of the posts are outright BS. I am older and been shooting longer than most on here and that is another reason I feel the way I do. Some of the people whether they be moderators or self proclaimed experts here are doing a grave injustice to others who tend to believe them by their statements. A new Winchester costs no more than a Rem CDL and to my eyes the Winchester is as good looking or better looking than the CDL and I have two CDL's. I have tried the Rem CDL's for accuracy with the speed bumps left in and found that a bedded action and free floating gave better accuracy. And speaking of Butt Ugly guns I think the Rem SPS is about the most UGLY gun made today! For the price of a SPS you can buy a Savage Classic 14 which I feel is a very good looking rifle, I know which one I would buy. The two Ruger 77 MKII's I own shoot as well if not better at times as my Rem CDL's, I feel certain people get blinded by their favorites and feel and state everything else is inferior. My most accurate rifle that I own at the present time is an old Rem 788 with an ER Shaw barrel which by some people's statements are no good either. If you take a look at the benchrest factory rifle reports you will find it isn't Remington that is winning the most and setting the most records but it is rather Savage. I like all the rifles I own and with the favorite handloads that each rifle prefers I don't see much accuracy difference between any of them.
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well george im not buying any cdls at 9oo a pop either! Ive got two sps rems that i bought for around 450 and two take off cdl stocks i paid 75 a pop for. those are my cdls. As to the savages dominating bench rest shooting. Id like to see some documentation for that one. the couple comptitions i went to (observer not as a shooter) were completely dominated by remingtons. Both in stock classes and open classes. As to looks to each his own. What i think looks good might not be what you think looks good. As to my statements ill say this. I have no stake in any of it. Why would i say one manufacture was better then another unless i believed it. there surely not paying me to advertise. I call it like i see it and my advice isnt based on one of two guns or shooting 50 rounds a year. Id safely bet there isnt a half a dozen guys on this forum that shoot near what i shoot in a year and ive been doing it for 40 years. An injustice is guys giving advice that comes from shooting a 100 rounds a year out of a gun or advice that is nothing but repeated statements you got off the internet. I think you can ask around on here and wont find to many that think i give out bad info or recomendations. As a matter of fact I think youll find most will say if anything im brutaly honest. I believe it was you who sold all his savages because they were ugly.
Remington Firearms (http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/board,141.0.html) / Re: When will Remington get their quality control back in check? Maligned Chambers (http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,201239.msg1099040418.html#msg1099040418)« on: February 28, 2010, 07:42:40 AM » I have to say if accuracy was my only criteria for owning a rifle or rifles I would own only Savage rifles. The two I had were more accurate than my Remington 700's that I own. I got rid of the Savages because my Ruger 77's and Rem 700's are better looking rifles. In fact my Rugers are just as accurate as my Remingtons contrary to a lot of peoples beliefs. I have shot smaller three or five shot groups with my Rugers than with my Remingtons using the handloads all of them like the best.
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To Swampman,
You wrote:
He knows that Remingon makes the finest and most accurate firearms in the world. He's just stiring the pot. Are you a moderator now?
Report to moderator (http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php?action=reporttm;topic=236257.135;msg=1099346576) (http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/Themes/default/images/ip.gif) Logged (http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php?action=helpadmin;help=see_member_ip) "You come to the swamp, you better leave your skirt at the house"~Dave Canterbury~
1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing 1983-1985 1993-1994
My response: Ok, yes I'm stiring the pot which Swampman is an expert at. You comment is kind of like the kettle calling the pot black. Your foggy vision from Retinoashitanitis is acting up again, do you spend any time thinking before you speak, or all of these one liners automatic defense response actions. How much does Remington pay you to promote their products? Something is really out of balance and biased to the extreme if you think that Remington makes the finest firearms in the world without qualifying the price points.
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If you want the best, get a Remington. If you are willing to settle for less buy an off brand. It's a free country.
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Lloyd, I have been shooting for 55+yrs now and I normally shoot around 1,000 rounds a year. I believe that is enough to tell me what is accurate and what is not. As I said I am happy with all my rifles as they are all accurate enough to suit me and I don't see a big difference in brands for accuracy. Just so you know all my rifles will shoot five shot groups of 0.75 or less and sometimes if I am holding up my end they will do quite a bit better.
Remington Firearms / Re: When will Remington get their quality control back in check? Maligned Chambers« on: February 28, 2010, 07:42:40 AM » I have to say if accuracy was my only criteria for owning a rifle or rifles I would own only Savage rifles. The two I had were more accurate than my Remington 700's that I own. I got rid of the Savages because my Ruger 77's and Rem 700's are better looking rifles. In fact my Rugers are just as accurate as my Remingtons contrary to a lot of peoples beliefs. I have shot smaller three or five shot groups with my Rugers than with my Remingtons using the handloads all of them like the best.
Would you mind telling me where I stated Savages are Ugly????? There is a difference between saying that Ruger and Rem rifles are better looking and stating that Savages are ugly. In fact I feel the Savage Classic 14 is a very good looking rifle.
This is why I seldom ever post on her or anywhere, it seem there are always people who try to twist things to their suiting.
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"I get quite a kick out of these threads, as far as I am concerned most of the posts are outright BS. I am older and been shooting longer than most on here and that is another reason I feel the way I do. Some of the people whether they be moderators or self proclaimed experts here are doing a grave injustice to others who tend to believe them by their statements"
well george it looks like this statement was a direct attack on my honesty. Ive been around on this forum for a good long time and am pretty well known on here and i dont think youll find to many that will agree that ive done them any injustice. I think youll find just the opposite. I dont care for alot of swampys posts but at least he doesnt take personal slams at people and he gets them thrown at him constantly. Ive got big sholders too and can take it but if you cant take it back maybe you shouldnt post. By the way ive shot near a 1000 rounds this week. Im glad your happy with your savages but as you said yourself a remington is better looking all three are just as accurate and a remington cost no more then a savage. Add it up and i can see why you sold your savages.
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Well Lloyd I see you are pretty thin skinned so I won't post anymore, I also see you can't tell me when I said Savages are ugly because I NEVER DID that is the type of MARLARKY I don't take and I don't care who you are or who you think are. Rem makes some good rifles but as I said in my eyes the SPS model is UGLY starting with the sand paper bluing! I will never own a SPS, I like the CDL's and the old style ADL but I never cared for the looks of the BDL.
I didn't question your honesty although I question statements everyone makes from time to time and that is the way it is. Sometimes it amazes me that some people always seem to have problems with products that I have used for years and friends have used for years but they don't favor. They never have problems with problems they favor, very odd to me.
As I said you will not see me posting again.
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George,
Yes we have a lot of B.S. on almost any forum you log into. However the old addage applies: "If you can't stand the heat then stay away from the fire" which you are choosing to do.
I have strong opinions on many things and I post on several forums, have no problems with personal insults, learned how to handle those in basic training in the Air Force after one of my fellow Tar Heels who was my T.I. made me roll out a roll of toilet paper the full length of the barracks, stamp each and every space between the perforations with my name and serial number while bending from the waist only, then roll it back up and place it back in the Latrine in its place. Nothing is like the military to cure a case of thin skin or being easily insulted. I learned that often an insult is the best kind of compliment.
I pick at Swampman, but I respect him a lot for being firm in his beliefs and I don't aways agree with Lloyd or Graybeard. I try to share facts as I see them or my opinions which like some others may stink at times. I used Remingtons as benchrest rifles, but for sporting use prefer something else. I like Winchesters, Savages and Rugers. To me the Ruger Hawkeye is a good looking classic rifle.
Don't go away mad, stay and fight it out and stay the course like Swampman.
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Parker, I have no problem with Swampman I get quite a kick out of him although I do take a lot of salt at times. I do feel sorry for him at times as he is considered a Troll on other sites. I always keep an open mind about firearms and Swampman is dedicated in his admiration for Remington products. I own quite a few myself as I have always been a shotgunner and when I shot registered Skeet and Trap it was with Remington shotguns and I have been hunting upland birds, ducks and geese since 1967 with Rem 870 Wingmasters. There again I don't care for the Rem 870 Express guns.
Lloyd you must work as a tester if you shot 1,000 rounds in two days this week! Yes if you buy SPS's they cost no more than a Savage or some of them at least but then Savage puts real bluing on all their guns and there plastic stocks are certainly no worse than the Rem. Savage does put pillars in them also but I don't believe Rem does do they? I believe you can buy a Classic Savage for about the same price as a SPS and that is a heck of a better looking rifle to my eyes. And yes I did feel the Rem CDL's are a better looking rifle than the Savages I owned at the time. Win Mod 70's, Rem CDL's, Ruger 77's and Savage Classics are all very nice looking rifles to me. I enjoy owning the Remington rifles I do but I don't feel they are the gold standard of rifles, in fact I don't feel that way about any brand.
I wouldn't have made this post except for the fact I wanted to answer Parker.
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haha complaining about the looks of a gun, thats funny!
Most modern rifle i shoot is a Mosin Nagant built in 1953. Now if ya wanna cry about looks. Theres a gun for ya to cry over! ;D
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sorry george if i wrote it a bit wrong but i meant in the last week. Theres probably not a week goes by in the summer that i dont shoot well over a thousand rounds between handguns and rifles. Lately its been rifles alot because im getting ready to start crop damage deer shooting next week. I didnt mean to come down on you like i did but im an honest man and have alot of pride in the fact that theres not an once of bs in me. Problem is sometimes i tell it like it is a bit roughly. Bottom line is i could give a rats ### what kind of a gun you or anyone else likes. I know what i like and i buy them. As im sure you do too. Even i am not stuck on one brand like some ;) I have rifles i really like from ruger and winchester too and have even owned a savage or two through the years. Yes im opinionated and bullheaded. But most of my opinions come from pulling the trigger. Shooting guns and hunting is my life. I dont have snowmobiles or motorcyles or hotrods anymore. I spend all of my time and all of my money on shooting. So bottom line in this is im right and everyone else is wrong. If you doubt it just ask my wife and shell tell you!
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Lloyd,
Thought you had some kind of a side by side 4 wheeler you rode off road. You get rid of that? :o
Regards,
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No need to worry about me lloyd. The way I feel about things is there is nobody on the internet who impresses me or intimidates me. I will be 67 shortly, I have been shot at in my younger days and I am still here so I don't worry about much now. The only time I get upset is if someone falsely accuses me of something or they imply something about me. I don't stay upset for long though as I just consider the source and move on. I tend to take everything I read on the internet with at least one grain of salt and with some people quite a bit more than one grain. I tend to listen to friends who I shoot and hunt with as they have been around such as I have and I know I can depend on them. I say what I feel and that is the way I am although I am a lot easier going now than when I was younger. BTW you were about five years old when I started my drag racing career, I sometimes hate to think about how fast time passes by.
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First off..looks/appearance. I don't think we can rationally debate the looks of a rifle..because "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Many years ago I had a friend named Jim who worked in a brickyard with me. Jim took a new bride which he considered to be the most beautiful woman who ever graceed his home town. I frankly thought she was a ugly as a homemade woodchuck...but he was delighted with his beautiful wife..AND THAT"S WHAT REALLY COUNTS!
This thread started out with Pastorp speaking about q-u-a-l-i-t-y..a nd some us (rightly or wrongly) believe the first expression of quality is accuracy.
I simply pointed out which manufacturer seems to be outperforming others.."where the rubber meets the road"...
http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/team-savage-multiple-medals/ (http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/team-savage-multiple-medals/)
Now, I didn't say that Savage is the only accurate rifle.. I have and have had some H&Rs which perform very well..along with some Marlins, Mossbergs, Anschutz and a CZ which have performed very well for me.
Comparatively speaking, my 336 nor most levers are accurate rifles..but they arte adequate for deer/bear in eastern woodlands & mountains.
Another fdactor which concerns quality is SAFETY and it appears Remington may have a challenge on it's hands with their bolt guns.
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yup still have the polaris rzr and my jeep. I just got rid of the rhino though as it was just getting to hard on me to ride it.
Lloyd,
Thought you had some kind of a side by side 4 wheeler you rode off road. You get rid of that? :o
Regards,
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did some drag racing in VA in the early 70s. Nothing to serious. I had a 340 duster that had some work done to it that i bracket raced. It ended up with a 440 in it before i moved out of there. there was just nothing but street racing up here.
No need to worry about me lloyd. The way I feel about things is there is nobody on the internet who impresses me or intimidates me. I will be 67 shortly, I have been shot at in my younger days and I am still here so I don't worry about much now. The only time I get upset is if someone falsely accuses me of something or they imply something about me. I don't stay upset for long though as I just consider the source and move on. I tend to take everything I read on the internet with at least one grain of salt and with some people quite a bit more than one grain. I tend to listen to friends who I shoot and hunt with as they have been around such as I have and I know I can depend on them. I say what I feel and that is the way I am although I am a lot easier going now than when I was younger. BTW you were about five years old when I started my drag racing career, I sometimes hate to think about how fast time passes by.
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One of the best looking rifles I ever had IMO was a Winchester 70. As it was it didn't shoot very well. A Rem 700 Classic in 350 Rem Mag was very nice and shot excellent.
A Ruger 77 is good looking IMO, the one I got now also shoots very well. For lever guns an early 450M Guide looks good to me or a Browing BLR.
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Updated:
One of the custom action builders just told me to stick with the factory 700's for an over the counter rifle ,except for the Savage F-Class model.
Gunsmiths who have used Remington actions to build benchrest rifles have related that Remingtons quality control has gone down over the past 10 years.
The are having to do more precision machining and accuracy work than before when building super accurate rifles useing the 700 action as a basis.
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One of the custom action builders just told me to stick with the factory 700's for an over the counter rifle.
Good advise...
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Anyone know the story on the current owners of Remington?
How's their quality, I know the new Marlins quality has sure gone down since remington bought them out. That's my opinion at least.
It seems like all the oldtime American gun makers are in trouble in one way or another. Sure hope they can survive.
Whats your take on all this, Do you think the american made firearms industry is doomed?
Regards,
Both the Remington and Marlin brands are part of the Freedom Group of Cerebus. Here in the virtual reality of the "Intermess," Freedom Group is often loathed for letting "corporate greed" and "profit" stand in the way of delivering a quality product. Personally, I don't buy in to blaming Freedom Group / Cerebus for the issues that Remington and Marlin have. I think both companies were on a downhill slide before they became a part of Freedom Group.
Last week, while at a big gun store in Tulsa to pick up reloading supplies, a Marlin XT-22 caught my eye. On examining the rifle in the shop, I was very impressed with the high level of fit and finish it exhibited. The thing is simply perfect in build. Wood to metal fits are precise. The polish and blue job done is "old school Remington" all the way (so it is more than acceptably nice). I am not one to impulse buy, but at $135.80, NOT buying the rifle wasn't an option. I took it to the the range the next day and I still cannot believe how darn good this rifle is -how smooth and precise the action feels, how crisp and creep-free the trigger is, and how accurate the rifle is. I have had a 541-T, an A-Bolt .22, and a CZ 452-2E, and in terms of accuracy, this new XT-22 beats them all, hands down. To be frank, it is unbelievable accurate.
If everything Remington made was like this "Marlin" XT-22 made in Remington's Mayfield, KY plant, I'd be a bigger "Big Green" fanatic than Mr. Swampman is. It's just that darn good. It has been a long, long time since I have been this satisfied with a new gun purchase.
So maybe Remington and Marlin have had their problems. But if they can turn out something as good as my XT-22, the can turn out thousands more that are just as nice. This gives me cause to hope that Freedom Group might be able to restore these brands back to their former respected positions in the marketplace. While the Marlin lever actions that I've seen that have come out of Illion haven't impressed me (depressed is a better word), the most recent 700 CDLs, 750's and 1100 Sportings that I've seen have appeared flawless.
It might be a while before I throw down on a new Marlin lever action. But if I had more money burning a hole in my pocket, there were some very nice CDL's at the store where I bought my XT-22 that I would very much like to take home, as well as a stunning and perfect in every way 1100 Sporting 28 gauge that is calling my name.
I have been pretty critical of Remington and Marlin products, but those brands haven't lost me as a potential future customer yet. Based on the experience I've had with the XT-22 and the perfection of the CDLs I've seen lately, they are very likely to get more of my business in the near future.
JP
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Once again, Remington bought and owns Marlin.
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Is it not true then that Cerebus shut down Marlin?
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Remington would have to do that, and they haven't.
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Once again, Remington bought and owns Marlin.
Who says they didn't?
Fact: Cerberus owns Freedom Group. Freedom Group owns Remington. Remington bought Marlin.
Fact: Cerberus' Freedom Group owns the Remington and Marlin BRANDS.
JP
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I repeat, Remington owns Marlin.
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and cerbus owns remington
I repeat, Remington owns Marlin.
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Exactly....it matters.
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Hey swampy;
I haven't been here in a long time, but I see you're still beating that dead horse... ;) :D ;D ;D
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I just traded my Winchester model 88 308 Win. in on a new Remington model 7600 Carbine 30-06 Spr. two weeks ago. The fit and finish is absolutely awesome. Both the metal and wood are excellent. The bluing is mirror polished. The stock and forearm are nice and dark, the checkering is nice. I couldn't be more pleased. I haven't shot it yet. Hopefully this coming weekend I'll be able to sight it in. The last 7600 Carbine I had was a real shooter, hopefully this one is too!
We put a Remington made Marlin 336Y 30-30 Win. (12" LOP stock and 16.25" barrel) on layaway for my son for Christmas. The fit and finish is nowhere as nice as my new 7600 Carbine or my Marlin made 336C 35 Rem. The metal is nice but the wood isn't anything to write home about at all. We got a great deal on it so we bought it planning on cleaning up or changing the stock and forearm later. Remington definitely needs to address some issues with the Marlin rifles they're producing ASAP.
NYH1! ;)