Graybeard Outdoors (GBO Reloaded)
H&R Talk => H&R Centerfire Rifles => Topic started by: quickdtoo on February 07, 2012, 12:19:52 PM
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I've been waitin for miyata to post a range report on his 499HE for a long time, so long I forgot all about it until it was mentioned in the Big Bore forum yesterday! :-[ Appears he hasn't been online here since just after he posted about it. :-\ Any way, I talked to Ed Hubel this morning, ordered 50-90 dies from TOTW and 450 NE #2 brass from Grafs, when I get the brass and dies, the 500S&W barrel goes along with them to Ed for rechambering and die modifications.
Tim
http://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/aicompare.cgi?sn=fDWcQFaFLS&loadset=83&xxglbl=1
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Wow. Are you going to have any barrel left after he reams it out? lol.
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22" barrel?!?!? Should be a real flamethrower with a nice slow powder. :o
Tim, my new laptop isn't getting along with ammoguide, can you post a .499 cartridge drawing?
Answered my own question;
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,206882.0.html (http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,206882.0.html)
BB
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Just the specs from AG, it's 3.560" long with a .577" case head, Ed's data runs to 30kpsi which is pressure tested, he used a 32" barrel he made for an SB2 shotgun frame, 22" velocities will be less than what he lists on AG, 500gr @2400fps. He provides data which I'll use the fastest powder listed, if it doesn't work, I'll work my own load up for the 22" barrel using QL predictions once I know what the case volume is. I'll probably sticky with the 385gr Remington CL bonded if I ever hunt with it, but I have a bunch of jacketed .500" bullets that a custom mfr sent me for testing that I've never shot, he's no longer in business.
Tim
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Holy!
Crap!
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Here's a pic of a round someone tried selling on Auction Arms, it's listed as 4.55", but I think that's with a different bullet than shown, Ed's loads are listed with 160gr powder with a 300gr bullet.
Tim
SPECIFICATIONS
Bullet Diameter:
.500 in.
Case Capacity (est):
152.5 gr. water
NOMINAL PERFORMANCE
Bullet Weight:
500 gr
Muzzle Velocity:
2400 fps
Muzzle Energy:
6398 ft-lbs
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Holy!
Crap!
+++1 ;) :-\
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ya know they call the .458 Lott a nose bleed cartridge, what catagory would you put this one in? Migrane maker? or just painful on both ends?
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Place it in the detached retina catagory! 8) lol
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Way to go Quicktoo, We will be watching for a range report. I hate to see you as the Gennie pig but if not you then who?
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seriously though what kind of free recoil numbers are ya lookin at with this lil beastie?? and is this something that the SB2 receiver can handle, or is this a lets try and see kind of project?? I'm askin' cause I may want to do something similar, but I am not sure about risking my only SB2 receiver, so I'd need to buy the whole .500 rifle.
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and is this something that the SB2 receiver can handle, or is this a lets try and see kind of project?? I'm askin' cause I may want to do something similar, but I am not sure about risking my only SB2 receiver, so I'd need to buy the whole .500 rifle.
Ed's data runs to 30kpsi which is pressure tested,
Tim
I've been waitin for miyata to post a range report on his 499HE for a long time,
I hope the .499HE isn't the reason he has been away from GBO?!?!? :o
BB
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Tim, I'm usually intrigued by new caliber ideas in the Handis, but not this one. The .45-70 and the .500 are as big as I care to go. I think the hotter .45-70s are about my limit. I don't need to develop a flinch. I am awed by these mammoth slayers and wish you guys good luck, good shooting and good insurance ;)
Pete
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I hate you Tim! :'(
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... and is this something that the SB2 receiver can handle, or is this a lets try and see kind of project??
454 Casull SAAMI pressure is 55k psi, and the 460 S&W is 65k and folks have been using these successfully. If the 499 HE (which is Van Helsing-like in its proportions :D ) is only running up into the mid 30K range, that's 357 factory ammo range.
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Atllaw, I with you. I may have to go look at at 500 s&w handi. Tim dont let moss grow on his shoes.
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seriously though what kind of free recoil numbers are ya lookin at with this lil beastie?? and is this something that the SB2 receiver can handle, or is this a lets try and see kind of project?? I'm askin' cause I may want to do something similar, but I am not sure about risking my only SB2 receiver, so I'd need to buy the whole .500 rifle.
At 30kpsi, estimated ball park breech thrust is 7844lbs which is less than a 45-70 at 40kpsi in a levergun load, for comparison, a 52kpsi load(max hodgdon data) in a factory built H&R 500S&W runs 11386lbs. Recoil is all dependent on bullet weight, powder weight, gun weight and velocity. I ran some QL predictions for the 385gr bullet in a 22" barrel, came up with ~2400fps, in an 8lb gun that's around 90lb/lbs recoil, somewhere between a 458 Lott and 460 Wby Mag in recoil. Bump the rifle weight up to 12lbs and it's 58ft/lbs recoil.
Tim
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454 Casull SAAMI pressure is 55k psi, and the 460 S&W is 65k and folks have been using these successfully.
454 Casull SAAMI MAP is 65kpsi, same as the 460S&W. ;)
Tim
http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm
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seriously though what kind of free recoil numbers are ya lookin at with this lil beastie?? ...
... I ran some QL predictions for the 385gr bullet in a 22" barrel, came up with ~2400fps, in an 8lb gun that's around 90lb/lbs recoil, somewhere between a 458 Lott and 460 Wby Mag in recoil. Bump the rifle weight up to 12lbs and it's 58ft/lbs recoil.
Tim
Thanks Tim, that'd be about my upper limit for an occasional shooter.
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I hope the .499HE isn't the reason he has been away from GBO?!?!? :o
BB
That's crossed my mind too! :(
Tim
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Tim where do you type in the launch codes to fire it? OUCH! thejanitor
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I'd shoot that only with a sane load of FFg of holy black.
Otherwise, I like to keep that $2,800 root canal on that right back molar just where it is.
IMHO, you're playing in a craps game with that dragon called PSI, Dr. Darwin, and Messur. Murphy at those levels.
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Read some of Ed Hubel's work, this isn't his first big bore project, he's been working with the H&R platform for a long time, his projects are chronicled in the 12gaFH discussion here, max pressure for the 499HE is a piezo tested 30kpsi.
Tim
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,79991.msg574237.html#msg574237
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I am thinking the has not been a range report from your friend.
Torn rotator cuff ?
Blessings
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I did a little internet research on miyata, there's a fella in Tasmania that's a member of the SCCA(Sprintcar Control Council of Australia) with the same name as in his email address, he's been active in the SCCA as of last summer, so he was apparently alive and well up til then, I sent him a direct email to get an update.
Tim
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I did a little internet research on miyata, there's a fella in Tasmania that's a member of the SCCA(Sprintcar Control Council of Australia) with the same name as in his email address, he's been active in the SCCA as of last summer, so he was apparently alive and well up til then, I sent him a direct email to get an update.
Tim
Tim,
IIRC, miyata bore the brunt of a attack, from someone who used to hang out on this forum, for his acquistion of the .499 HE. The poster was sure that the .499HE was instant death. :P It would be nice if miyata was back on the forum, he is a very nice fellow.
BB
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I just don't know Tim... :-\ the 499 HE may have a certain je ne sais quoi, but no real class! ;) I'll take the 50-140, a cartridge with some history thank you very much... ;D
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[
Tim,
IIRC, miyata bore the brunt of a attack, from someone who used to hang out on this forum, for his acquistion of the .499 HE. The poster was sure that the .499HE was instant death. :P It would be nice if miyata was back on the forum, he is a very nice fellow.
BB
I think NFG may have been the one you're thinking of, he disappeared for a while because of the same thing.
Tim
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I just don't know Tim... :-\ the 499 HE may have a certain je ne sais quoi, but no real class! ;) I'll take the 50-140, a cartridge with some history thank you very much... ;D
I can't get past the $283 die set, so that one's gonna have ta wait cuz it also requires a rebore, so I'll leave the door open on that one for ya'all. ;)
Tim
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the .499 HE has only one issue, recoil. Adding about 4 pounds to the Handi rifle should cure that "problem". The price of conversion for a 50-140 compared to a .499HE is the tipping point for most. especially with the price of the dies added in. By having the option of loading black (2Fg black powder) in the .499HE all other 50 cals seem to be in the also ran column.
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Do I recall correctly that about 40-45ish ft.lb. of recoil is the 'typical' top level for normal humans to consider acceptable? Of course, we all know that there are a number of exceptional humans here on GBO ;) .
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I can't get past the $283 die set,
Well, now you know why I jumped on that die set Tom (BikerBeans) found for me! ;D $63 delivered and poor ol' Tom did all the legwork! What a guy! ;)
We could always share the die set. ???
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The good thing about those recoil numbers is that we control them.
The 50/140 has a history that was written by someone else. The 499 hubel history will be written by you.
Just feeling a little philosophical.
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The good thing about those recoil numbers is that we control them.
The 50/140 has a history that was written by someone else. The 499 hubel history will be written by you.
Just feeling a little philosophical.
Do I recall correctly that about 40-45ish ft.lb. of recoil is the 'typical' top level for normal humans to consider acceptable? Of course, we all know that there are a number of exceptional humans here on GBO ;) .
Dunno about what's acceptable, I think the typical level for most is well below that, somewhere around what a 30-06 provides. For my purposes, 385gr at 2400fps in an 8lb gun, probably a little heavier actually, provides about the same recoil as a 10ga shotgun.
Tim
http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp
http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_recoil_table.htm
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I can't get past the $283 die set,
Well, now you know why I jumped on that die set Tom (BikerBeans) found for me! ;D $63 delivered and poor ol' Tom did all the legwork! What a guy! ;)
We could always share the die set. ???
That's a thought!! 8)
Tim
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I might need to rent that die set one day. Dang 45-120 keeps looking smaller everyday?!? ::)
BB
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Hmmm, wonder if 50-90 dies would work for the 50-140 much the same as 357mag works for 357 Maximum?
Here's a pic of 450 NE #2, 45-120, 45-70 and 500S&W cases.
Tim
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What a puny little thing that 500S&W is!
Regarding recoil, as I recall, 'they' say that a few repeat shots from a 3" 12 ga. is about all most want to feel (which is in that 10ga range, isnt it?) in a light platform like the H&Rs. I know my Buck barreled 12 smooth slugger is a vicious kicking beast.....and I go 6'1" x 205ish.; but I admit to being a 'sensitive fellow in touch with my gentler side'. Ive even been know to wear a pink shirt in public while eating quiche ;) .
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Hmmm, wonder if 50-90 dies would work for the 50-140 much the same as 357mag works for 357 Maximum?
Here's a pic of 450 NE #2, 45-120, 45-70 and 500S&W cases.
Tim
My 45-70 FL Die wouldn't work on my 45-120 brass the first time. Had to get one full length resize with the 45-120 die and the after that the 45-70 die would "neck" size the fire 45-120 brass, well accept for a couple of cases that might have been a bit hot. :o
BB
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Hmmm, wonder if 50-90 dies would work for the 50-140 much the same as 357mag works for 357 Maximum?
Here's a pic of 450 NE #2, 45-120, 45-70 and 500S&W cases.
Tim
My 45-70 FL Die wouldn't work on my 45-120 brass the first time. Had to get one full length resize with the 45-120 die and the after that the 45-70 die would "neck" size the fire 45-120 brass, well accept for a couple of cases that might have been a bit hot. :o
BB
With the top cut off the 50-90(499HE) die it might just work tho, size the bottom of the case with the short die and the top with an unmodified 50-90 die, 50-90 3-die sets are ~$50. 8)
Tim
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quick, just because you people have some bad weather out there doesnt mean you have to shoot it to the east coast!! john
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I just got a reply from Johan, the ballistician at Accurate Arms/Ramshot, he confirmed my AA5744 load predicted by Quickload is a good one for the 22" barrel!! ;D
Tim
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Got the barrel back from Ed this morning, made an extractor for it, annealed and sized 20 rounds of brass, made a dummy round with a 385gr Rem to check the extractor which works great, all I need to do now is figure out what scope to put on it for range work and load up some ammo, here's a pic of the dummy round with some brethren big bore rounds. ;)
Tim
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I've got some Bullseye powder if you got a super slow motion video camera. ;D
Looks great Tim, can't wait for the range report.
BB
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Makes my shoulder hurt and eyes roll just looking at the pictures ;D ::) One thing for sure it should handle Bigfoot if you ever come across him!
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Gooooulll eeeeeeeee! You gona hunt efelents with that? :o
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I would suggest a long eye relief scope mounted near the front sight ::) :o
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Talk about blood trail. It will not be hard to track YOU! ;D
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L E A D S L E D !!! ;D
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L E A D S L E D !!! ;D
Ok, so I can inform the shoulder doctor that his services will not be needed ;D
Seriously though, range report please.
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Decided to stick with what works, the Nikon Prostaff 2-7x32 shotgun scope has worked well with the 500S&W for about 200 rounds so far, so I put it back on but changed the base to a Warne picantiny, I think the Leupold PRWs will work fine on a good base. I also marked the barrel this morning, almost forgot to do that before I mounted the scope! ::) :-[ ???
Range report as soon as the weather cooperates!! ;)
Tim
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Shot it today finally, didn't get all of the loads shot, only about half of em, still have a lot of powder to burn in it, the last group was a little over an inch at 2001fps and each successive group has been smaller which is encouraging, that's less than half the size of the best group that barrel ever did as a 500S&W with any bullet, so the reduced pressure of the 499HE has some merit, although it's at the cost of increased recoil. ;)
Tim
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stands up and barks eh?? 8)
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When you consider the bullets are 1/2 inch in diameter that 1 " group is a very nice one!!
Congratulations
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When I get the best load nailed down, I'll shoot a 3-shot group, shooting 2-shot groups during load work saves a lot of powder and wear & tear on the gun.....and me, even in the leadsled it really kicks with me behind it. One thing I noticed is the report, compared to the 376 Steyr, it's a very big bore boom instead of a bang, even my wife could tell the distinct difference when I shot it! This is something I never noticed when shooting it as a 500S&W.
Thanks,
Tim
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Almost a month and no more info?! >:(
We NEED video of the beast.
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Patience grasshoppa. ;)
Tim
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patience HE hockey sticks I wanna kill something
er um make that a range report ;D
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I checked the case capacity of the fire formed rounds, looks like I have lots more rounds to shoot to reach my max velocity and pressure goal, about 10grs more to be exact, the estimated case capacity was 152.5gr H20, it's actually 165.6gr, so more powder is needed.
Tim
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"Ya think ya used enough dynamite there, Butch", comes to mind........ :P
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D !!!!!
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(https://www.gboreloaded.com/mhp/images/quickdtoo/banana_1.gif) There's lots of room for more powder, my new predicted max load is just 65% load density, makes it easy to insure I don't do a double charge too since it would overflow! ;D
Tim
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Here's an update, I think the 5744 was a poor choice, velocity just didn't increase much, I went up to 80gr and still barely only got up to just below 2200fps, another powder will be necessary, accuracy was about the same as before. And if anyone wants to know if a 50-140 3¼" Sharps 570gr .510" Hornady round will chamber and fire in the 499HE, it will! But don't ask how I know that. :-[ ::)
Tim
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Here's an update, I think the 5744 was a poor choice, velocity just didn't increase much, I went up to 80gr and still barely only got up to just below 2200fps, another powder will be necessary, accuracy was about the same as before. And if anyone wants to know if a 50-140 3¼" Sharps 570gr .510" Hornady round will chamber and fire in the 499HE, it will! But don't ask how I know that. :-[ ::)
Tim
Tim,
Ben dare and dun dat! :-[ Launched a 500S&W round out of a 50-70govt. :o
BB
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That's what happens when ya have two ammo boxes sittin in front of ya and ya forget to close one of em, I usually put one away, but the RJ45 cable end on my chrony display won't stay plugged in, the little retainer lock broke off, so I set one box of ammo on the cable to hold it down, worked fine until I was almost done, then I forgot to close one and dug a round out of the wrong box......I have no idea where it hit, never found it. :-[ Good news is it didn't hurt anything, the brass will still chamber in the 50-140 just like it was fired in it. :o
Tim
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Well at least it didn't hit the chrony ;D bet that would have made a mess!
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Maybe we should start a new topic. OOPS! listing our screw-ups. Someone might be spared some grief.
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maybe we shouldn't, that way others can ask for advice from experts who never goof up ;D
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;D ;D ;D ;D
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Quick, are the ~2000 FPS numbers you're gathering using the 385gr Rem projectiles? And this is the 22" 500S&W barrel, modified to .499 HE, correct? Just making sure of the test parameters.
Have you tried IMR 4759 or Alliant RL17? Mr. Hubel's a big fan of those sloooooow rifle powders for his other projects--wonder if they'd work in the .499 HE with the relatively short barrel.
Thanks,
jkpq45
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Yes, that's what I used with the A5744 loads, I'm out of them now tho, so will be using 350gr XTPs, 325gr and 375gr XPBs, Ed's data is based on his 32" test barrel which can utilize the slow powders, but in the 22" barrel a faster powder is necessary, otherwise there's just a lot of recoil due to the huge powder volume increase but not any velocity gain out of the short barrel. QL says IMR3031 or H4895 will work best with the lighter bullets, so that's what I'll use, I set the limit to 40kpsi which keeps breech thrust at ~10,000lbs which is ~1,000 less than a 500S&W max load at 52kpsi.
Tim
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Great choice with the H4895. Looking forward to hearing more progress!
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Any updates, quick?
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Not yet. :(
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It's snowy where I am, too--I got out to the range a few weeks ago and slogged around in the snow and mud, but it was pretty cold.
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End of the wet here means still too soft for vehicles and heavy undergrowth, so little or no shooting. but at least I can drop in here for some gun fun.
Sincerely thanks for sharing fellas and keep up the interesting projects.
Mick
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My next range trip probably won't be until June right after turkey season ends, I'm in the scouting mode now, looking for some new places to hunt, been out 3 times in the last week, seen close to a hundred elk a few deer and coyotes, but no turkey sign at all. My wife has surgery planned next week which will keep me grounded caring for her while she's recovering, hopefully she'll be back on her feet by April 15th when the season starts. :-\
Tim
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Prayers going up for her speedy recovery. Same situation here for the past month. Very best to you both. G66
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Tim, prayers out for you and your wife.Take care Pard.Doug
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Have you ever fired that thing from the prone position? How many times?
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Would you mind shooting a video of you shooting this and posting it on YouTube?
Ron
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Have you ever fired that thing from the prone position? How many times?
Nope, and I don't care to shoot it or the 50-140 Express from a prone position, just from the leadsled with plenty of weight on it. 8)
Tim
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Would you mind shooting a video of you shooting this and posting it on YouTube?
Ron
Sorry, no vidcam. :(
Tim
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Shoot it prone with a vid-cam?
'No, I wouldnt want anybody to see grown man cry.....' :P
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....or be hospitalized...or worse!!! :o
Tim
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Ever get a chance to get out with this elephant slayer last summer, Tim?
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Sorry to say no, this home remodeling project has taken priority, I'm just hoping it's done before the spring turkey season opener. :-\
Tim
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OM, Tim.....I sympathize.....BTDT only a few years ago and it took over my life for longer than I expected. The good news is that we do like what we did; Im sure you will too ;D .
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Sorry to say no, this home remodeling project has taken priority, I'm just hoping it's done before the spring turkey season opener. :-\
Tim
Tim, I'm glad to see someone else has their neck in the Honey Do trap. Welcome aboard.
Returning somewhat to topic. Tim, you, Jason, bikerbeans and now George and some other masochists all wanna do this matcho man crap with the big gun. Hooray, have fun, get at it. I get enough excitement out of my .45-70s pushing the 405 close to two grand. Three or four of those are quite enough to cure restlessness.
Now, this is the real question: What do you guys expect to encounter that will require that kind of killing? Granted, it might be fun to knock an Amtrak locomotive off the tracks, but you can go to jail for that. I have dissolved chipmunks and similar critters with the .45-70. I was lucky though, I got them before they turned and charged.
Seriously, Tim, what can you do with that thing except abuse old and brittle bones? I ain't into it. Y'all have fun.
Pete
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But Pete.......
We ALL know, its not whether you win or lose, its HOW you play the game....... ::) ;D .
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The 499HE is just a novelty just like the 500S&W was for me, wanted to do something different with it for fun, it's too heavy to hunt with, I like my Superlights for serious work. ;)
Tim
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Amen to that Tim. I ain't hauling long, heavy iron in the woods no more. It's shorties and Superlights. Yes Sir.
Pete
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I have dissolved chipmunks and similar critters with the .45-70. I was lucky though, I got them before they turned and charged.
Pete, I just laughed so hard milk almost shot out my nose--and I wasn't even drinkin' milk.
Thanks for the afternoon laugh, I'm still chucklin'.
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After being on hiatus from the forum for a couple of years, I come back and see the .499 Hubel. Part of me says I need to do this, but the rational part says my BC chunking 405 grainers at 2100 hurts more than enough!!
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Welcome back! Maybe you'de like to consider a 50-140 then instead!! ;D
Tim
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/hr-centerfire-rifles/hey-everyone!-(50-140-discussion-range-report-added)/msg1099544357/#msg1099544357
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Thanks for the welcome back! I may have to get on the list for a reamer and take the 45-70 up a notch or two before I get all crazy and step into the world of the 50!