Graybeard Outdoors (GBO Reloaded)
H&R Talk => H&R Centerfire Rifles => Topic started by: Badnews Bob on February 19, 2004, 07:16:33 AM
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Ok now we have to start again that other poet was getting long in the tooth anyway. I hope to be trying my new powders this weekend. There are so many options with this rifle that its a little hard to decide where to go with it but heavy cast bullets seem to work best so far. 8)
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Badnews Bob hows it going :D Do you plan on hunting with your 357 max or is it just a shooter/plinker. I loaded up a dummy round after I got my dies set. Man the max is a cool looking round. I'm hoping to pick up some powder this week end if every thing goes right. I finished reaming the Rossi Tuesday evening. Should be twice the fun trying both rifles. I'm still leaning toward H-110 but still have not made my mind up completey.
BBF
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Should be twice the fun trying both rifles. I'm still leaning toward H-110 but still have not made my mind up completey.
BBF
Double your pleasure, buy two .357's, and double your fun. 8) BTW I don't think you will go wrong with H110 with those XTP's, or 296, or AA1680 if you can't find the H110. :wink:
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8)
BBF
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Hey BBf I plan on hunting with it, but there'll be a lot of just shootin and plinkin with it till huntin season opens. Gotta try all that new surplus powder Haywire and myself scrounged up. Gotta get some work in with that 38-55 to. 8)
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OK quick question on primers for the max. What brand are you using. I know to use small rifle primers but is there one brand better than the other. Since I'm new to reloading (or as 308 says rollin your own :lol: ) is one brand verses another brand going shoot different.
BBF
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I use Alcan S R But just because I have thsm on hand,
Years ago [100 or so] I bought the Alcans at gun shows.
Then it got to where I could not get them went CCI on every thing
but Small Rifle. I like Alcan got to where i could not get them.
My 2 cents. Marv.
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OK quick question on primers for the max. What brand are you using. I know to use small rifle primers but is there one brand better than the other. Since I'm new to reloading (or as 308 says rollin your own :lol: ) is one brand verses another brand going shoot different.
BBF
I use Winchester primers exclusively, and I don't recall that much difference made by different primers. I've used Remington and CCI's too, but started using the Winchester's years ago, and now that's all I use. BTW did you get a priming tool, like the Lee autoprime? Love mine. Great for rollin' yer own.8) BTW, I'm all excited cause I got my second bullet, and on my birthday, too. :)
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308 I got the Lee auto prime it came with my Lee Anv. kit. Have you tried the Lee hand held press. I got one for 19.95 to do my 357 max shells till I get my bench set up. I set the crimping die up in it adjusted it and rolled me a dummy load. Did a good job. Looks just like a factory crimp. Surprised me how easy it really was. I was kind of nervous about setting the die. I think I'm going with the winchester or cci primers. Diffently going to get to shoot my 357 max Sat. :-D By the way you guys were right about reloadin equipment you always want more no matter how much you have already.
BBF
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308 I got the Lee auto prime it came with my Lee Anv. kit. Have you tried the Lee hand held press. Diffently going to get to shoot my 357 max Sat. :-D By the way you guys were right about reloadin equipment you always want more no matter how much you have already.
BBF
Good deal on the Auto Prime, and no I haven't tried the hand press, but you got me wanting to now. Actually never gave it much thought, but I am now. You'll alway see something for handloading you just gotta have. Can't wait to hear how she shoots. Should be Swwweeeet. 8) 8)
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BTW, I'm all excited cause I got my second bullet, and on my birthday, too :)
Did I miss something is today your B-day.
I really like the idea of the hand press. I can keep everything for the max in a plastic lockable tool box. I have a list of stuff I going to order when I get my income tax back. :-D
BBF
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Boy I messed that quote thing up didn't I. Guess you can tell I'm not computer literate. Oh well.
BBF
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Hey don't feel bad, I'm not that good with them either. Most times I think they have a mind of their own. Don't worry about it. Let 'er rip, or give it another try. To tell you the truth I make so many mistakes I don't post without using the preview button several times. :wink: Yep it's my birthday today, 54 years and counting. :eek:
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HELLO 308 you young whipper snapper
Ever time I look at midway catolog I find some thing
I just can't do without. :eek: And I have prob a $ 1000.00
more just reloading equipment, Have not been at it, about
40 some years. But oh what fun. If I could get time to do
more shooting. Marv.
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:D I've been haveing trouble staying logged on, But I've switched to internet exploreer we'll see. Anyway Happy Birthday 308, I hope to use some of that new powder Monday, and I mostly use CCI primers except in my cowboy gun they have lightened hammer spings so I use Fedrals in them. Going to take my class for a conceled carry permit tomarrow, I don't plan on carring a gun but I feel thats a way to support my rights to do so. Anyway wish me luck. 8)
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:D Happy 54th B-day 308 :D Well, in about 4 hours I get off work and me and the boys are going to pick up some small rifle primers and some H-110. Should be fun. Especially since they are excited about helping Daddy reload.
BBF
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Well 308 and all you guys I finaly reloaded my first round. 357 maximum. Remington brass, Hornady 180 XTP, 19 grains H-110, and a CCI small rifle primer. Loaded 50 rounds Saturday and shot a few Sunday. Did not want to shoot to many till I can put it on paper and see how accurate this load is. Will also load some with 21 grains H-110. My Lee book shows this as a max load. I was wondering what other manuals list as a max load for the 357 max. Is 21 grains H-110 as far as I can go. Does anybody know what muzzle velocity is with my load from a 22'' barrel.
BBF
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Young whipper snapper, how I wish sometimes that were true, Marv. :) Anyhow thanks guys for the birthday wishes. BTW, phones been out at home since early a.m. Sat. and still out. :( No computer there till it's fixed. :(
Edit: BBF, Hodgdon's says 21.0 gr. of H-110 is the max. load for the Max. This is a pistol load with 10" barrel and it's pushing almost 1700 fps, so I'd guess giving 25 fps for each additional inch of barrel, you'd get close to 2000 fps outa your Handi with that load. Maybe some of the Max shooters will come around with some of their results. :wink:
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308 Enjoy while you can, I am a young 73. I think h-110 may be the best powder for the Maxie, I have got to find some place with in a 100 miles to get some more powder, just about out off some I had on hand. Its been
15 yrs. since I bought any. Want to try some Unique for cast plinking loads
for 1000 - 1200 fps. Take care safe shooting. Marv.
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308 I gotta tell ya I felt really proud shooting that first round. Me and the boys loaded those 50 rounds. I would measure the powder out and they would put it in the cartidge. Then I would put in the bullet. They both wanted to work the press and seat and crimp the bullet. They did several like that. I don't know who had more fun me or them. By the way you can tell the difference in recoil between the NEF and the Rossi. There is hardly any recoil at all to start with, but the Rossi is real light compared to the NEF. The NEF has a more solid feel.
BBF
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308 Enjoy while you can, I am a young 73. I think h-110 may be the best powder for the Maxie.
Yep, doing the best I can to enjoy, always figgered myself to be a young 50's type. Few more aches and pains, and a belly that's hard to get rid of nowadays. H-110 looks really good for the Max, so does 296 and AA-1680. Can't really say, let you know when I get mine Maxed. Used lots of H-110 and 296 in my .44 mags, about the same results with either. 2400 is a good one too in the .44. Never had any AA-1680, but would like to give it a try in the Max. :wink:
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308 I gotta tell ya I felt really proud shooting that first round. Me and the boys loaded those 50 rounds.
BBF
What a deal, rollin' yer own ammo and your boys helping out. Two more handloaders into the fold. Excellent. :wink:
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Me and the boys had so much fun we might set down and load those other 50 with 21 grains H-110 tonight. Ya I think they are hooked too. Going to get me some 22 Hornert dies and start loadin for it in a couple weeks. Need to get me a load worked up for spring turkey season. Thinking about a 50 grain psp. Do not want to blow a big hole in the turkey. Since the boys will be hunting with me this spring a shotgun might not get me tha range I need. :)
BBF
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Me and the boys had so much fun we might set down and load those other 50 with 21 grains H-110 tonight. Ya I think they are hooked too. Going to get me some 22 Hornert dies and start loadin for it in a couple weeks.
BBF
May I make a suggestion. Since you started with 19.0 gr. of H-110 without signs of excessive pressure and 21.0 gr. is the listed maximum load. Why not load 10 rounds with 19.5 gr. shoot them checking for signs of excess pressure, then move up by 1/2 gr. for the next rounds, until you reach the maximum load. Just to be safe and if you did load 50 rounds at 21.0 gr. and you saw they were too hot in your gun after a few rounds, then you'd have a bunch loaded you'd need to pull the bullets from and start over, which is a pain. :wink: BTW that H-110 may be a good powder for the Hornet too. Glad the boys are taking to it. 8) 8)
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See, I knew that I should not load all those rounds with 21 grains H-110 just needed someone to remind me. Thanks 308. It's good to have friends remind you of the correct thing to do. Need to look at the 22 Hornet data tonight. Might have to get me another jug of H-110.
BBF
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It's good to have friends remind you of the correct thing to do. Need to look at the 22 Hornet data tonight. Might have to get me another jug of H-110.
BBF
Hey, I just happened to be around, besides working up 1/2 gr. at a time until you reach the maximum load for your gun is common practice. :wink: It would be a pain to hafta pull almost 50 bullets and start over, I have a kinetic puller which is fairly quick, but still 50 would take a while. If you do decide to use H-110 in the Hornet a pound will last a good while, if your maximum load worked out to be 10.0 gr. of H-110 in the Hornet, then a pound would do you 700 rounds. 8)
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Cool 8) I could do a lot of loading for the max and hornet with a couple pounds of powder.
BBF
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H-110 and WW 296 are the same thing within normal lot to lot variations. It's pretty common for the same powder to get sold under two different labels. Any difference you see in the loading data is lot variation and/or differences in the technique of the fellow who worked up the load.
BBF, you got good advice on the half grain steps. Just getting started, you need to take it real slow and careful. Max loads are no place to be learning on.
Reloading is a long way from an exact science, and it takes some time to learn to read the signs and to get a feel for what you are doing. Even canister grade powders can have more variation than you might expect.
Just this weekend, Vance and I chronographed some rifle loads that were near 200 fps under book. After he left I did some testing in another rifle and established that it was the powder that was way slow, not the rifle. That was name brand powder, too. A fellow who tried a max load for my lot of powder using a fast lot of the same powder would be in a world of hurt. (Btw, Vance printed a 1" group at 50 yards with open irons testing that ammo)
If you've been reading reloading manuals for years, you'll know that they get revised constantly. It's nothing out of the ordinary for a lab to work up a load that is safe with their lot of powder and their test equipment and then find out that it is way too hot for other lots and other guns.
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Thanks DJ. Can you tell me some of the pressure signs that are hard to see or oftened overlooked.
BBF
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BBF, the most exact pressure sign available to us is the case expansion at the pressure ring measured with a four place micrometer. It's a real PITA and I won't do it except in those very rare cases when I am working around absolute max.
Primer reading is the most common and the most useful, but you have to have used one brand of primers long enough to have a feel for what a given degree of flatness means and it does not work at all in stuff like the .45-70 where you are way over the redline before the primer starts to flatten at all.
One huge red flag is tiny metal shavings around the firing pin hole. A burr there can give you a false alarm so I polish that hole slightly on my guns. It that area is not burred, even tiny shavings mean that the primer has been pushed into the hole. That's way too much pressure. On bolt guns, a bright spot on the case head where the ejector cut was means the same thing for the same reason.
Sticky extraction in a Handi is a sign of overly high pressure if you have eliminated the other common culprits.
Far and away the best method is to stay away from loads so hot you need to worry about excessive pressure. The rule of thumb is that it takes a 10% pressure increase for a 5% velocity gain. That last grain or two of powder is unlikely to give you enough extra velocity to be worth the pressure increase.
A chronograph is a real handy tool, too. It'll tell you what a one grain increase is doing to velocity and it'll tell you when you have the velocity you need. If you get up around book velocity and your charge is still well under listed max, it's time to stop. If you get to the listed max, and your velocity is still low, it's time to stop anyway. Try another powder.
All this stuff takes experience. You have to get a feel for what your guns do. Best way to get that experience is to settle on safe working loads and load and shoot a few thousand rounds before you start worrying about max performance. (If then. Been there, done that, ain't going back.)
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Thanks DJ. I plan on getting a chronograph soon, just so I know what my loads are doing. I just want to push the 180 XTP at 2000 FPS so I can have a good low recoil deer thumper out to 125 yards. From what I have read the 19 grains of H-110 should do that out of the 22'' NEF barrel. Again thanks
BBF
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:shock: This maximum thing cranks. :twisted: I loaded some 145gr Win silver tip HPs with 26grs of H110, They chronoed at 2650 I didn't shoot them for groups but I blew a 2.5 inch limb outta ceder tree at Close to 100 paces, big fun to shoot. I did try grouping some 187gr LRNFP GCs over 21grs of H110 they went 2145 avg and shot a 1.710 five shot group and a .910 4 shot group with a flier opening it up to 1.56". I also shot one of thease at a 1/8" steel plate 50yards away It punched a .50" hole, Very impressive. the 145s where 400 fps faster than a marlin i had there shootin 35 Rem 200gr JRN The 187gr bullets where 100 to 150 fps slower but alot more pleasent to shoot than the 35 Rem. I like this thing more every time I shoot it. 8)
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Hopefully I get to shoot both of mine this weekend and give you a report on them. I did some changing of stocks last night. I figured my NEF 357 Max. should have a better looking stock than the synthetic. So I put the Buffalo Classic stock/forearm on it. Looks sweet. Plan on ordering the walnut stock/forearm that is going to be on the new topper. Does anybody know how the 158 XTP's would hold together on a deer. I would think they would come apart pretty fast. Any ideas.
BBF
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Well I ran about 12 shots thru the NEF 357 Max last night. I was laying on my very cold back deck and did not have a good rest but at 40 yards three shot groups was around 5/8. I tried the 19 grains H-100, 19.5 grains H-110, and 20 grains H-110 with no pressure signs. I need to shot it on a good bench. Will try and do that this weekend with the NEF and the Rossi.
BBF
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There ya go. 5/8'' at 40 yards ain't bad, not the best rest, working up loads, can't remember if you scoped it or shot with open sights. Sounds like a shooter to me. 8) Did you see BNB's post, 2650 fps with 145 Silvertips, that's smokin', betcha that would light up a coyote. Hope he shoots some groups with that load, maybe it'll group. 8) Got yourself a 'hotrod' using light jacketed bullets and a 'tank' with heavier cast bullets. I can't wait to try some of my hard cast 158's. Love them pistol calibers in rifles. Two of my favorite rifles are .44 mags., deer don't know what hit 'em. I've been studying, especially since I read what JPH45 had to say about the .445 SM. I got a .45-70, got a .444, and yep I got a couple of .44 mags. But looks like soon there won't be any more .44 Handi's and most likely no more .44 barrels either. Maybe I should think twice before I rechamber my .44 mag. barrel. :? If I ever get it. May not be any more. :(
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I have a 3-9x40 on it but the paralex was messing with me also. I know from a steady shooting bench it will deliver good accuracy. I seen his post on the 145 ST. That is moving. Sure would make a great 150 yard yote gun if you didn't want the hide. :lol: I ordered some stuff this morning from Mid-Way. Ordered me a Lee turret press, two extra turrets, Frankford Arsonel tumbler kit (on sale for 63.95), dies, brass, and bullets for the 445. JPH45 is very knowledgeable and I know the 44 barrel is limited right know but that does not bother me to much. If I ream it I can still use regular 44's thru it as long as I clean the chamber every now and then.
BBF
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:D Things have been kinda screwy here havn't they :wink: I've been testing the Max some with good news, To get better groups I scoped it it'll get a peep for hunting but I thought a scope would show better in test. Less human error :shock: anyway, the Winchester 145gr silvertips work very well, 26grs H110 cci primers clocked 2650fps and are shooting under 1.5" groups at 50yards one 5 shot group measured .686 while sighting in the scope I put 15 shots in a 4" long rectangle where they followed the scope adjustments. The 187gr LRNFP GCs from LBT with 21grs of H110 worked maybe best so far, I got two groups (with all I had left shot the rest up) both where under .796" at 100 yards I forget but I think they clocked right at 2000fps I have a LEE mold on order that almost duplicates this bullet can't hardly wait for that I think this will be a great hunting round. So far this thing seems to like anything you shove thru it but you can hear those big lead slugs hitting the back stop and thats just to cool. Anybody else been able to shoot much? Later 8)
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Bob I've been shooting mine a little and I meen very little. I did get to shot it a about 50 yards maybe a little less. The NEF with 19 grains H-110 and a 180 XTP was shooting around 5/8 of a inch with a really uncomfortable rest. I shot 5 with 20 grains of H-110 they were around 3/4 but am not sure yet if it was me that opened it up or the extra grain of powder. Laying prone on my cold back deck. There was one group that was around 3/4 and one around 1/2 inch. But the others were around 5/8. Also the scope paralex was not set at 50 yards so that was messing with me a little. Know I do not have a pair of calipers so I was useing a tape measure. Hopefully I can shoot them both this week end. I can tell you one thing the Rossi will be a lot funner to carry. I will bet there is a 2 pound difference between the two of them.
BBF----<><
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Warms the cockles of my heart (sometime I'm gonna hafta look up just what that means) to see you boys doing so good and having so much fun.
Best I am managing with cast are 50 yard groups the size of Bob's 100 yard groups. I'm in on the same group buy Bob is and really looking forward to that mould. It's to be a sixholer for $41 and anyone interested better move fast. Order is already in, but Lar thinks he can increase the order until production. Check the Cast Bullet Forum over at AR for details.
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DJ I think you mentioned having a 200 gr mold, I believe I would like to try some bigger cast also. Have you ever tried a 225 or 250? My thinking on thease is they would be good on hogs if I ever get around to hunting them here in KY or Tenn. My next project is a trigger job, I could get more consistant groups with a lighter trigger. Right now our trigger pull guage won't even measure our handis, so they are over 5 lbs. I have 4 recivers to work with so maybe I'll get it right on one of them, If I figure it put Haywire my let me do his :shock: I don't think I can get him to try hisself thou :wink:
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DJ I think you mentioned having a 200 gr mold, I believe I would like to try some bigger cast also. Have you ever tried a 225 or 250? My thinking on thease is they would be good on hogs if I ever get around to hunting them here in KY or Tenn. My next project is a trigger job, I could get more consistant groups with a lighter trigger. Right now our trigger pull guage won't even measure our handis, so they are over 5 lbs. I have 4 recivers to work with so maybe I'll get it right on one of them, If I figure it put Haywire my let me do his :shock: I don't think I can get him to try hisself thou :wink:
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Bob. I promised you some 200 grainers a while back and even have them set aside for you. I ship stuff out in a flat rate mailer and hate to send one out without taking all the advantage of the gubmint I can. Tried to find out what else you could use a couple of times, but those messages seem to have been lost in the confusion.
Check with Haywire and see what he can use. I cast for about everything and have several hundred pounds cast up. Just send me a wish list and I'll match up what I have with what you need the best I can.
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Yep things where sure odd around here, I couldn't even get online for 3 or four days. I'll get with Ian and let you know soonest. Thanks 8)
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DJ, I'm loadin 357, 45LC, 45-70, 223 and just bought a Lee Loader for my 30-06 to play around with. (it doesn't like 110gr Vmaxs :(, Itsa Roooger)
thanks,
Ian
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Wrapped, addressed, ready to go in mail. Be tomorrow before I get to the PO.
There's a box of each of .358 212 RNGC, 457-405HP, .454 255 RNFP, and .30 cal 173 GCs. I forget whether I sized the last .309 or 311.
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Much thanks DJ. If I ever get my shrinking band problem worked out, I will send you some .458 325gr GCLFPs and .452 250gr GCLFPs that I have molds for (both Mountainmolds). As of now I'm getting base shrinkage and the GCs aren't crimping tight enough. My boolits are almost never really pretty anyway. Wrinkles are extremely common.
Ian
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Wrinkles and base shrinkage are mould contamination or casting too cold. Put your blocks in a quart or two of very soapy water and boil them for half an hour. if you are casting hot enough, that should clear it right up.
Only other possibility I can think of is a bad batch of alloy and that's so rare I have never encountered it personally.
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Interesting.... Dan told me to lower my temp to 650ish from 800 and use a drilled out ladel for max flow instead of my bottom pour Lee furnace.
I'm up for anything tho.. will be boilin and cranking the temp back up tomorrow. We'll see how it turns out.
Ian