Author Topic: .357 "OH SHEET IT'S A BEAR" medicine (Read 2010 times)

Mainspring · « **on:** August 14, 2003, 08:50:42 AM »

I'm going on a family vacation to bear country and would like to have some decent concealable bear medicine. Obviously, the Bisley BH .45 Colt would be my first choice, but I need to be able to tuck it away. That leaves a 4" M66. Anyone have some input as to a good factory load for this purpose?

Mikey · « **Reply #1 on:** August 14, 2003, 10:03:39 AM »

Mainspring: There sure have been lots of discussions about this topic, with some suggesting filing down the front sight so it doesn't hurt quite so much when the bear introduces it to the places the sun doesn't shine (on your anatomy). However, you didn't say what bear, black, brown or Two Bites (big enough so that's all it takes before you become one with the leftovers).

If it is the black bear you can do with 180 or 200 grain 357s loaded hot. If you don't reload, Cor-Bons are about the onliest things available in that weight, I believe. If the bear is anything larger, such as the brown or Two Bite size, get some hot and heavy loads for that 45 LC and find a way to carry it for quick access.

Please don't fret, yet. Let's hear what some of the others have to say. Hope this helps. Mikey.

DzrtRat · « **Reply #2 on:** August 14, 2003, 01:44:46 PM »

Hi fellas, I'm new here but thought I'd add my penny's worth.

If I had to use a .357 on bears, I'd stick with heavy loaded 180-200 gr bullets like Mikey suggested. I've never tried the Cor-Bon 200 grain hard casts, but I've shot other Cor-Bon ammo and it's good stuff. I'd trust it if I had to go with factory loads.

That said, I didn't draw any big game tags this year so I'll be concentrating on black bear. I hunt in some pretty thick stuff sometimes and don't quite trust my .357 so I bought a Ruger BH in .45 Colt. It won't be my primary firearm, but I just hate predator calling for bears in brush without a good handgun!

~Rat

Paul H · « **Reply #3 on:** August 14, 2003, 02:44:16 PM »

Too bad it has to be concealable

I'd also go with a 180-200 gr. Federal makes it's 180 gr castcore round.

Speaking of bears, I went for a lunchtime hike in a local park, and at the trailhead a guy coming back said that he had smelled a bear, but not seen it down the trail. Well, I came across a fresh bear patty in the middle of the trail around the spot he'd smelled the bear, needless to say I wasn't the most comfortable being unarmed and alone. While Alaska is supposed to 1/2 our outside of Anchorage, you can still come across a suprising amount of it right inside the city limits.

His lordship. · « **Reply #4 on:** August 14, 2003, 04:27:04 PM »

In the 1980's I saw a film footage taken of a park ranger who was releasing a relocated grizzly bear back into the wild from a cage in the back of a pickup truck ( it may have been Yellowstone NP). The ranger was on top of the cage when he opened the rear door and he assumed that the bear would run out the open gate away from him, but instead the bear turned, climbed up the cage sides, and knocked the ranger down to the ground in about 1-2 seconds. :shock:

The ranger had the issue Smith and Wesson 4" barreled model 19 (or M66) chambered for .357 magnum. As the bear was clawing the ranger, the gun was fired very quickly in DA, killing the bear. I was impressed at the speed of the bear, and the ability of the ranger to draw his weapon and fire it inside of 1-2 seconds all 6 shots.

You should be able to get your gun out quickly, if you suspect anything while in the woods, it would be a good idea to have the revolver out of the holster, and ready. I am not sure what load the rangers use, as people problems are their main concern these days, the 125 grain hollow point, or 158 grain semi-wadcutter were popular then in law enforcement. I would look at the heavy bullets and have a user-friendly grip on the gun for a fast pull. :-)

KING · « **Reply #5 on:** August 14, 2003, 04:56:44 PM »

All the years in the woods hunting and fishing and I as yet have had any problems with a black bear,or for that matter any of the other species. You stay away from them,they stay away from you(unless have bacon in yer back pocket). Now,the two legged critters,that is another story.............stay safe....................king

Mainspring · « **Reply #6 on:** August 15, 2003, 05:30:27 AM »

Hey Mikey,

I gave that exact advice (filing the front sight down) to a buddy of mine once who said that he wanted to hunt bear with a .44 Mag. :-D Pretty sound advice. But, you can only do what you can do.

Thanks for the input everyone. I put this thread up last night before leaving work, and on the way home I did grab some Cor-Bon 200 HC. Looks like that's about the best I can do. Better than a sharp stick I suppose. And I've spent enough time off the pavement to know that bears like to avoid two legged critters, but I'm going with the "ounce of prevention" theory. Besides, what can I say...I'm a new daddy and still a bit paranoid about a few things. :wink:

Graycg · « **Reply #7 on:** August 15, 2003, 06:44:06 AM »

I think you made a sound choice, you are looking for something for that Just in case... and any gun is better than no gun and a hot loaded 357 is a good compromise for last ditch defense against all critters 2 and 4 legged in the lower 48. Now if'in you wuz in Alaska...

6 hits with a 357 beats misses with anything bigger or that pointy stick you talked about.

regards,
Graycg

labsrule · « **Reply #8 on:** August 15, 2003, 10:03:09 AM »

Hunting bear and defense from bear are different in the range at which we shoot. Hunting bear over bait I might shoot at 30 to 50 yards, and I would have my .45 Colt Dan Wesson with 300 gr or better handloads.
I would feel defending myself for a bear attack at 50 yards just isn't what happens. You have the opportunity to get intimately acquanted with the bear.... and you probably have little choise in the matter. At the bear attack defense ranges, it is frontal assult and you can almost place the muzzle right up to the brain housing group. A head shot is all you can depend on and the range will be extremely close. I would be more comfortable with your .357 model 66 than I would be trying to get my 8-inch HEAVY Dan on target. I would not believe there would be any problem at that range for a .357 to penetrate the skull... and doing so is fatal to said bear. It is also mor elikely you could place more than one round on target in the little time you have in a close range attack. The reply given earlier about the ranger killing the bear with his model 66 seems quite reasonable. Myself, I'd load it up with Winchester 180 gr Supreme Partition Gold, practice deployment of my gun from its carry position at close in targets... and I'd feel rather comfortable that I did all I could to take care of things.

rocco · « **Reply #9 on:** August 15, 2003, 12:56:06 PM »

I was watching one of those outdoor shows years ago .And they were talking to a Park Ranger .They asked him on how a grizzly bear compares to other wild animals world wide .
He said a grizzly is faster then a horse up to 100 yards .
Stronger then a ox .
And quicker then a lion .I don't know if thats all true but really makes me think hard on a handgum choice !

Graybeard · « **Reply #10 on:** August 15, 2003, 05:46:31 PM »

I am always amazed at the advice given to this question every time it comes up by folks who:

a. Have never even seen a bear much less shot one.
b. Have never shot a bear period.
c. Have never shot a bear except in a hunting situation which ain't the same as self defense.

Hardly ever do we get responses from folks who've actually DONE it.

For the record I'm in category a above. I've never even SEEN one in the wild. So I'm not offering advice but passing on what someone who's been there done that says.

Jim Hack (JJ) who is the moderator of the Africa Hunting Forum has killed and been in on the kill of more bears than most anyone alive today I suspect. Over 1000 I believe he said at last count. He guided hunters for them for many years and worked for a tree farm killing problem bears for a few years. He now is a guide in Africa and is on the staff of Bear Hunter magazine.

Any way now we've established Jim's credentials, Jim says to use a .44 magnum handgun with 240 JHPs. Says the bear reacts to the sting of the JHP and slows or stops the attack to bite at it giving you more time to put in more rounds. Yes he has been attacked and put down by one and lived to tell about it.

In spite of his advice I don't think I could make myself use JHPs and would have to use heavy hard casts if I'm ever in a place where I feel the need of a handgun for bear protection.

There are a LOT of documented instances of rounds slipping off the skull of a bear so don't assume a head shot is so instantly fatal on them. I believe Jim has a skull that is much shorter than normal from having part of the head blown away by a bullet and it still lived and was later taken by a hunter.

Me I have zero bear experience. Most folks who do other than Jim seem to say a rifle is the ONLY way to protect yourself if it really attacks. Most all folks who REALLY know bears have said avoiding them in the first place is the best protection and they list things to do to avoid them. Me if I'm ever in bear country hope to avoid them and if I don't I'll have a big bore handgun with heavy hard casts and hope they work even tho Jim tells me that's not the right load to use.

I offer you no advice. Just tell ya what I've heard and read and what I'd do. No way I'd intentionally go up against a bear with a .357 Mag if I had a choice. BUT I'd sure rather have it than my fists. :eek:

GB

myronman3 · « **Reply #11 on:** August 15, 2003, 06:28:30 PM »

and that aint no crap! i have blackies thick and big where i live and if you make a little noise they will leave you alone. i have never had a bear monkey with me while i was armed. maybe that is because of the added confidence; maybe coincidence. if bowhunting and i feel i need to carry insurance, i use my 1911. i know one guy who killed a bear with a steel shotshell; and another who escaped an angry sow at the bottom of his stand(with the cubs above him, all on video tape) because he had a 22lr revolver. he didnt shoot her, he just fired and the noise was enough to remind her who belongs on top of the food chain. BUT he admits to feeling WAY undergunned for the situation.
my only encounter with a bear was while working (i work outside) i had one monkeying around in the brush within 50 yards snapping her teeth and woofing at me. i figured she had me if she wanted me so i just kept on working. at one point i did yell at her like an unruly dog and she still kept on. evenually she moved off. this was a problem bear with 2 tags in the ear already. i really wasnt all that scared to be honest. something told me she was full of schmit. i would have felt better though had i been armed.
the point is that any gun beats your fingernails. like graybeard said, use your head as it is the best defense you have. btw, i am talking strictly about blackies!

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #12 on:** August 16, 2003, 12:19:01 AM »

you have more of a chance of a tree falling down and hitting you on the head then you do a black bear attacking you. SO leave the gun at home and wear a helmet. They playin the back yards up here. Only time you have to worry is in the spring when they have cubs and you are dumb enough to get between them and there little ones or if your stupid enough to pump lead into them in the wrong spot and them 99 times out of a hundred theyll just run as fast as they can away from what hurt them. Your better off carrying a good pair of binoculars in black bear country at least then you have a chance of seeing one but it will ususally be the back end of one running away!

DzrtRat · « **Reply #13 on:** August 16, 2003, 04:33:16 AM »

Yep Lloyd, you're somewhat right about the chances of being attacked by a bear, but keep in mind that bear attacks do happen.

I kind of believe that bears are individual, just like people. Some will bother you, some won't. And just like people, it may depend on their mood at the time.

Now, I'll tell you that I'm a lot more at home in the hills than I am in town, but any place I go there are certain dangers. When I go to town, I carry a concealed Smith 637. I've never needed to use it, but it does give me a certain peace of mind when there's G-factor (bangers) hanging out in the parking lot near my truck as I come out of a store. By the same token, when I go into the hills I carry a handgun. I've never NEEDED to use it to defend myself, but again it gives me a certain peace of mind when I'm in bear/lion country.

Here in the Mexican border country of Arizona there isn't much chance of a mesquite falling on me, but there are plenty of UDA's (undocumented aliens from Mexico), drug runners, mt lions, bears, and so forth, not to mention the 2 legged snakes from our own country. If you choose to leave the gun at home, that's your choice and so be it. Anyone who isn't comfortable carrying shouldn't do it. For myself, I'm nearly always wearing a gun of one kind or another.

~Rat

les hemby · « **Reply #14 on:** August 16, 2003, 04:44:16 AM »

no way i would leave the gun at home with my wife,kidswith me. as greybeard said i have never seen a bear but i think 2 legged vermin can be more dangerous than bears. i would carry the 357 and feel very safe

since you have it anyway might not hurt to load the 45BH with hardcast and put in a bag for tent at night

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #15 on:** August 16, 2003, 06:32:39 AM »

my statement wasnt meant to say that you shouldnt pack a sixgun when your in the woods I have one on my side whenever im in the woods. But My point was that to worry about carrying something big enough to take care of a problem that doesnt really exist isnt nessisary. I feel just as safe with a single six on in the woods as I do with my .500 linebaugh. Now if I were hunting a specific animal my choise would change to reflect that. One thing we dont have to worry about the two legged vermin up here. Personally from what you seem to face a good .357 da gun loaded with 150+ grain hardcast swcs would be hard to beat.

rocco · « **Reply #16 on:** August 16, 2003, 07:18:23 AM »

I remember reading a artical in a Hunting magazine once on this subject .The author was a Forest Ranger that spent 8 hours a day 6 days aweek for over 30 years in bear country alone . He carried a handgun with him along with a small dog . He said he heard bears at times but when he got close the dog would start barking and never had any trouble with bears .He said he never saw a bear in 30 years .
Maybe a small dog would be the answer in not accidentally coming up to a bear with cubs .

DzrtRat · « **Reply #17 on:** August 16, 2003, 09:48:10 AM »

Lloyd, it doesn't sound like we're too far apart. I carry the .38 in town because it's easier to conceal, and usually carry a DA 4" .357 with 125 gr silver tip HP's when I'm out in the desert. Nothing there worse than a man or mt lion and the HP's will handle them ok. The bears are mostly up in the mountains so I'll switch to the .45 Colt I just bought if I go into their country. I used to have a SBH in .44 mag, but I didn't like it and sold it a few months back.

A lot of people here worry about the UDA's, and I can understand that I guess. I see them almost daily when I'm outdoors, and lots of them just walk the roads and try to hitch a ride. They don't bring much with them and depend on what they can get to survive, so most will steal from you if they get the chance, and although most won't hurt you, some will. Kinda like the bears, it's hard to tell what you're dealing with by appearances alone. It sometimes pays to be cautious.

Camel 23 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 17, 2003, 06:35:35 PM »

An interesting stat I read a while back said that for every one person that is attacted by a bear there are 180 people that are hit by lightning strikes.

I saw two black bear last week. The first one was huge, belly dragging on the ground, it stood up about 75 yards away and stuck its nose up in the air to smell me and then walked away slowly. I think it was more concerned about me stealing his blue berries than anything. The second, a couple days later, was much smaller and ran like hell when it saw me.

I can understand the park rangers theory about the small dog. If I had one with me I'm sure I wouldn't have seen either bear.

Mainspring · « **Reply #19 on:** August 29, 2003, 07:13:47 AM »

FOR SALE: One box of CorBon .357 Mag 200gr HC. :-D

Vacation went well, but I couldn't coax a bear into taking any medicine.

Mikey · « **Reply #20 on:** September 02, 2003, 04:04:12 AM »

Folks, there may be a slim chance of being attacked by black bears but don't think it doesn't happen.

My local newspaper printed a story about a 17 year old who went looking for his dogs in the woods near where his family was pic-nic-ing or camping somewhere in Connecticut, and he got tangled up with a black bear in the process. It seems he looked through some bushes, thinking his dogs might be on the other side and it was a bear instead. The bear reared up, as the kid was blocking his way out of the area, and the bear tried to run the kid over. Apparently this was one strappin' young man, and he tangled with the bear and finally punched the bugger hard enough in the chest ot break off the fracas, but when he ran back to the campsite, with his clothes in taters and scratches and scrapes all over, there was no doubt he hand tangled with something....

So, ya'll jes cain't ne'er tell what'll happen in da woods. As the famous saying goes - I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by six - well, I'd rather carry six (shots or more) than be eaten by one. Mikey.