.45-90 vs .45-100. also Long Bore Riding projectiles

[cam0063]

A question probably covered 100 times before. However as a relative beginner here I will ask - is there a real practical advantage in shooting the .45-100 over the .45-90 in rifles of the same weight at Long Range. ie 800yds plus?

I was of the belief that the new modern cases being thicker walled held less powder, than the original cases! Using 520-550gr projectiles - My interest in the .45-100 [2.6] is that it would give me the same powder capacity as the old original .45-90 [2.4] loading, with maybe a little extra powder. I am now learning that my thoughts are not entirely true.... As there are shooters loading the .45-90, who are getting up to 100gr in the .45-90 case with one grease groove exposed.... With these bigger loadings of BP, duplexing wouldnot be desired at 1000yds? As I have been told by several shooters many people duplex their .45-90 for some longrange matches.

Also are there shooters out there using and chambered their rifles for the Long Bore Riding style projectiles? I know very little about them, just interested to hear others thoughts?

cheers from Down Below.......

Cam.......

[Lead pot]

cam0063.

As far as 90 over the 100,my fealing on this is,I dont think the cost of the componants warrent's the efford.The 2.4 brass is easy to get with out buying the long basic .45 brass and cutting it down.
You will only gain about 30 fps.But the wind drift at 800 yds.will 17"inches more with the faster 2.6 over the slower 2.4.
The momentum LB FT/S is 60 for the 2.4,and 63 FT/S with the 2.6.I dont know if the gon will be more autible or not.I think I would go with the 2.7/8 to get a little more punch.Thats my thought.I like the 2.4 over all the .45's.

Now the long bore riding bullets.
I use Three types for the .45.I like the long heavy bullet I have one from Steve Brooks that is a postell type,that is 1.485 long and weighs 560 gr.It is a 5 groove bullet with the lube groove .090 wide .060 deep.it carrys enough lube fot the 34"barrel,and it flyes verry good.Tht other is a Brooks pointed bullet that is 1.500 long,a 4 wide groove with a long .449 bore riding ogive ahead of the driving band that has a .375 bearing surface it is a verry good flyer for long range.
The third one is a Lyman .457-125.

I just came back from Montana after visiting with Steve and his Wife Gail Brooks great people.I picked Steves mind on bullets and he gave me a few to try,and the bullet he gave me really opend my eyes,it is a .40 caliber 1.490 long with two grooves,and it has a bearing surface ahead of the band about .585 long.That .40-65 never shot better.And I was able to seat the bullet out far enough to get 70 gr of 2f with .200 compreshion.
Well cam0063 that is what I like,it workes for me.Make a lot of that white smoke. :wink: Lp.

[Coydog C.]

LP, and Cam,

   I’ll throw this out and let you guys chew on it for a while.

   I know what the computer simulations say about the increased velocity equaling increased wind drift, but I don’t think the simulations hold exactly true in real life. I don’t believe they take into account the TOF and its impact on variable winds, IE a crosswind that’s only in effect for part of the bullet’s flight.

   As for the 2.4” VS 2.6” all I’d do is look hard at the top 10 shooters at the Creedmoor shoot at Raton. Don’t just look at the calibers’ but take a look at the loadings. You’ll see that most are shooting 45-2.4s that are DUPLEXED!

   Most of the guys are shooting about a 540 grain bullet at about 1330 or so, which BTW is about what a 2.6” gets with straight BP.  IF you take a close look at the historical Creedmoor loadings, you’ll find a similar thread, a 550 grain backed by about 100 grains of powder. The 2.4” case was adopted for LR shooting using the standard 550 grain, shallowly seated over 100 grains of powder. With today’s brass that’s pretty much impossible to do in a 2.4” case, and very hard to do in a 2.6” case, but you can come close.

   This kind of defies the faster = more wind drift theory some. Actually, I think what it represents is faster = greater stability, and stability outweighs any increase in winddrift. I still don't believe there is any though. I've shot my 2.6" next to a friends 2.4" and have used a couple points less windage throughout the match.

   The price of 2.4” brass and 2.6” brass, is just a couple of bucks really. Both Buff Arms and Starline make both.

Chuck

[Lead pot]

HI Coydog.

Well I dont own a 2.4 or a 2.6,but I do have a 3.25 and a 2.1.I have a 2.4 Shiloh comming.So I dont have a preference for the caliber eather way.
I have tested the theory on wind drift with the large bore and the .22 rim fire.
my test was with the .457-125 Lyman bullet for all at 600 yds.
With the 2.1 I had about 2'less drift than I did with the 3.25.I shot with a full factor factor wind on purpose for the test.I was like you I had a hard time believing that a slower bullet would drift less than a faster bullet.I found out my thinking was wrong.I should have known that,I shot a lot of smallbore rimfire and I always had less drift with the standard velocity rimfire over the hv.loads.
AS far as duplex loads,I dont use them.I have tried 5%-10% duplex loads,and found they dont work any better than the straight black,other than a cleaner bore,but a good lube and a little blowing will the same job
Just my thought and way of doing it Coydog.What workes for me dont mean it workes for someone else.
I am a tinkerer I like to see for myself how things work,and I try to keep an unbiased mind when I test loads.   Lp.

One more comment,  I can get 80 grs. of 2f in my 2.1 by filling my case compleatly and putting a .60 wad flush with the case mouth,and breach seating a 540 gr.bullet.And if I compress the load a little I could get 85 gr,what your 2.6 probly holds?with the conventional loading I think.

[Coydog C.]

LP,

    I’ve got both a 2.4” and a 2.6”. My standard loads for my 2.6” is 96.0 Goex Cartridge or 91.0 1.5 Swiss. Both are a little over 1300Fps. That’s .320 Compression with Goex, and .210 with Swiss. Both of these loads are with a 540 grain PJ Creedmoor bullet fully seated. IF, I want to go for the max, I’ve put 101 grains in it. It’s just that there wasn’t much of a gain in velocity to make it worth while.

    The load I’m using now in my 2.4” is 76.0 of Goex Cart, again with a fully seated PJ Creedmoor. If you want to fully seat your bullets, there’s just no way a 2.4” can keep up with a 2.6”. “There’s just no replacement for displacement”.   IMHO, the 2.6” is on the fine line of being just enough to get the job done without going into diminishing returns. Past that, the fouling and recoil begin to become issues.

   I’m still sitting on the fence as far as the velocity and wind drift thing goes. All I know for sure is what I see folks doing that are winning matches. The LR events seem to be dominated by the “high” velocity crowd and the newest trend in Silhouettes also seems to be for more speed. I know guys that are starting .38s and .40s at close to 1300 and doing pretty well.

   The guys I’ve talked to that have been shooting BPCR type .22 silhouette have been using High velocity match grade stuff. The standard velocity doesn’t seem to hold together at 200 yards.

   Like I said earlier, it may be a function of stability being more important than some added wind drift. I was at a match a couple weekends ago and we were discussing another theory, and that is:

   Higher Velocity = a bigger target. It was written about in one of the BPCR mags not too long ago. It’s the belief that; by increasing velocity, and therefore flattening your trajectory, you increase the size of the target. If you draw a little picture with two trajectories, one flatter, it seems plausible. Due to the angle of the bullet’s approach, a faster round has more surface area to go for.

  Now, IF a guy was going to get just one rifle for both Long Range and Silhouette, I would recommend a 2.4” hands down. IMHO, it is a more versatile cartridge. With fully seated bullets it’s a 45-70+, and with a bore rider bullet seated out, it comes very close to 2.6” performance. As a matter of fact a good friend of mine shoots a 2.4” using a Brooks 540 grain long bore rider and his load is 92.0 grains. But, he’s got a grease groove exposed, and I have an irrational fear of exposed grease grooves.  :lol:


You’re right, there is about a gazillion ways to go about this :grin:

Chuck

[Lead pot]

Chuck

The chambering is still out for my .45 Shiloh.The .40-70 is coming I hope in time for the Quigley shoot.But the .45 it's marked down for the 2.4 at this time.I'm still leaning towards the 2.6 for the reason for being able to  fully seat the bullet .I'm like you I like to cover the grease grooves.I have dumped to many cases in the sand :lol:
The 2.1 is a good loading but I find it lacking past 800 yds a little.
As far as wind drift,It dont make any difference to me that is what that little knob is on the side of the staff is for.
How do you like the PJ Creedmoore,and how wide and deep are the grooves?I use a simular one made by SB with a .90 wide and .70 deep groove.It carries enough lube for the 34" barrel,and performs good.

                                                                                Kurt

[Smokin Joe]

Without throwing bear grease on the fire, re: wind drift, I think a couple of you need to read the article at:

http://gunlinks.zibycom.com/members/002245268/Site2/winddrift.html

[Coydog C.]

Smokin,

   Close, but no cigar  :lol:  That article refers to HV smokeless loads, where the theory of highest BC AND MV holds true. We’re discussing BP loads within BP velocities. It’s an apples and oranges thing.

  The common train of thought with BPCRs is that wind drift increases as the bullets speed increases until a certain velocity is reached (about 1700 FPS). This phenomenon is believed to be caused by the wind playing on the bullet’s shock wave as it passes through the air. Evidence is usually offered up as .22LR trajectory and wind drift tables. .22s have the same velocity ranges as BPCRs with about the same BCs for their bullets. Most simulations when dealing with BPCR BCs and velocities come to the same conclusions.

   The “ideal” velocity for a BPCR is believed to be in the 1100-1300 fps range. Since most BPCRs will never hit 1700fps, slower, is believed to be better, as far as wind drift is concerned.

LP,

    I agree on the 2.1 running out of steam at about 800, unless you either duplex it or run 3F in it. I know some guys that are running fast powder, and seating bullets a ways out, but we know how we feel about exposed grease grooves.  :lol:

   I started with the Lyman 457132 Postell, which is a very well designed bullet in a not so good mould.  :lol:  I then moved up to an NEI PJ Creedmoor copy, which was a very accurate bullet and I won a couple 800, 900, and 1000-yard matches with it. Then I finally broke down and bought the real thing. Accuracy is about the same as the NEI copy, but the ease of casting is night and day. I love my PJ mold!  

The GGs are .080 wide and .055 deep, weight in my alloy runs at 541.00 average. The only time I’ve had a problem with fouling is when using Swiss1.5 in hot weather. I’ve come to the conclusion that the 1.5 is just too fast in the 2.6”, so I switched back to Goex.

I like my .45 Creedmoor so much, I turned around and ordered a .40 version for when my .40 gets here. It’s due next month, but I think I’ll either be shooting my 2.4” or 2.6” at Quigley, there might be some wind this year :eek:

Chuck

[Smokin Joe]

It has nothing to do with apples and oranges;

The less time the slug spends traveling to the target, the less time the wind has to act on it. Either higher velocity or increased ballistic coefficient will lessen wind drift.
 It also has nothing to do with smokeless/black powder.

[Lead pot]

Smokinjoe>

I'm not a math genious when I went to School we didn't have calculators we had slide rules,and the only usefull thing I was able to find use for then was scratching my back in a spot that I couldnt reach with my fingers.nother words I'm not much good with it.Heck that is why I was just a dumb old plumber.But I know what my rifles will do that I have shot for going on 50 years.I know my 1100 fps 560 grain .45 caliber bullet dont drift as much as that same bullet flying at 1400 fps.with in less than 2 minutes on the same day.I dont get that out of a book I get it from shooting it across a bean field because I wound probly make a mistake with the calculator trying to find out.
Joe get a couple of those Buffeler guns and try it if you dont have one.Boy there fun :-) Lp.

[Coydog C.]

Smokin,

    You’re right it has nothing to do with smokeless or BP, it has everything to do with velocity though.

   Obviously IF you haven’t heard of the shock wave & slower = less wind drift theory as it applies to BPCRs you haven’t been doing your homework.

    It’s pretty much taken as gospel in most BPCR circles. I suggest you get a hold of a copy of the SPG Reloading Primer, and then read Chapter 2, page 36, second paragraph. In addition, the back of the book is full of BPCR ballistic tables that were created by shooting BPCR bullets to determine the BCs and then using the Oehler Ballistic Explorer. Sure enough, in every case where velocity is increased, wind drift is increased as well.

   

   Trust me, we aren’t making this up.

Chuck

[Smokin Joe]

Not a problem, guys.

I'll stick with the engineers and ballisticians at Speer,Nosler,Hornady,Barnes, Lyman and Sierra

[Coydog C.]

Smokin,

   OK, since you seem to trust the guys at Lyman, check out their cast bullet manual data for the 457132 Postell for a 10 MPH Cross wind.

MV       Range     Drift     Range     Drift

1400     500     47.27”     600     66.02”
1300     500     45.03”     600     62.69”
1200     500     41.16”     600     57.44”

Same data for a 20 MPH Wind:

1400     500     94.53”     600     132.04”
1300     500     90.45”     600     125.37”
1200     500     82.31”     600     114.87”

The Postell is a very popular Bullet in BPCRs and it’s about as typical as you’ll get.

If you look at the 457125, they have a max velocity listed at 2300. Between there and 1600 FPS, they list a decrease in wind drift as velocity increases. But once below the 1600 mark, wind drift decreases as velocity decreases.

Kinda makes you scratch your head doesn’t it?  :grin:

Yes, the Nosler, Speer, Hornady, and Barnes guys know what they’re talking about, but they’re not talking about big cast bullets at under 1700 FPS. :lol:


Chuck

[Smokin Joe]

Coydog, I think we're talking apples and apples now. My point is that the effective B/C HAS changed.
 From 1800' down to 1200', B/C can change from .201 up to .240.

 Now for an important topic:

Kentucky whiskey........neat, or branch water?

[Smokin Joe]

Hey, Lead pot, have you ever used "pour-thru" gas checks? By that I mean punching a hole in the gas check, then placing it in the top (base) band of the bullet mold and then casting normally.
 I've been trying this on the new Lee 500 gn in my 2.4" and it looks promising.
 I still think copper on the base of a bullet is a passing fad, but I tried it anyway and it seems to work.

[Lead pot]

Hi smokin.
Aint this blackpowder shooting great to have this kind of discussion?
No smoki I dont use gas checks.In a lot of matches you cant use them,and I havent found a benefit for them with black.
I found getting copper in the bore, that the lead bullets start to tumble at about 150 yds.It realy had me scratching my head for a while when that happen to me,Couldnt figure why my good shooting lead bullets started to go goofy,so I dont use them in my good powder guns.
I have one .45-70 I use for hunting only that I use swaged bullets I make with a base guard,that is a copper washer with a blead hole in the center that gets rivetdet to hold it place.This workes good,it scrapes the fouling as the bullet passes through.The bullet is pure lead with no lube groove.The leading is verry low but I do use a grease cooky.and they fly good.   Lp.

[cam0063]

Thanks for the input guys! this all gives me plenty of extra food for thought. I told Chuck it would much easier if one cartridge was lawed and the other a superior long range shooter! However we have 2 great .45 cartridges here - the 2.4 and the 2.6... Brings me to another question that Chuck thought I could post - Barrel length! May post that one shortly... Thanks again.

cheers,

Cam......

[Coydog C.]

Smokin,

  I'm with LP with the gas check thing. Since they're banned from most of the competitions I've never bothered to play with them. I’m pretty sure that if Paul Jones heard I was putting one in one of his molds he’d excommunicate me  :lol:

  As for the Whiskey, Sorry, Wild Turkey in Coke or Scotch neat.  :grin:


Chuck

[Lead pot]

Cam-
You wont go wrong on any of those calibers.Again my prefference is a long bore riding bullet.I like mine 550-60 gr.
Good luck with your project,and show those out backs what a good rifle is.
Kurt

[ButlerFord45]

I've gained a lot of insite from this thread, but it's just now gotten to where I can add anything of value.  3 cubes of ice in the bottom of a glass, pour enough Makers Mark to cover the ice.  This load is self compensating it works well regardless of glass size, volume of ice cube or relative humidity.

[Brazos Jack]

I don't want to cause any further division, but I remember that there was an article in the American Rifleman, back in the 70's I think, explaining this. I remember that the amount of wind drift did not vary with the flight time to target, but instead varied with the difference between the theoretical flight time to target in a vacume (constant velocity) and the actual flight time. Because the slower bullet also looses velocity slower than the faster bullet, the slower bullet will drift less. So, slow is good for wind drift. However, the slower your bullet, the steeper your tragectory and the more verticle dispersion you will get with a given velocity standard deviation. You have to trade one off against the other. Therefore, looking at what the old timers found worked as the optimum trade off, you find either a fully seated bullet in a 2.6" case or a paper patched bullet seated only about 1/8" in a 2.4" case, both being loaded with the same 100 grain charge. The fact that, to win, 45-2.4 shooters are often duplexing to get 45-2.6 velocities only proves the point. If you can afford a purpose built long range (800+) .45 rifle, then it is a 45-2.6. If it is for silhouette only it's a .45-2.1". If you need a "do everything" rifle for both, it is the .45-2.4". Being a compromize, the .45-2.4" will be, IMHO, a slight disadvantage ballisitcally. This may be more than made up for by the fact that the shooter will be much more familiar with his one rifle. "Beware the man who only has one gun" - or - "Don't worry about the guy who spends $3000 on his rifle, worry about the guy who spends $300 on primers."

Tim Allen
Houston

BTW, I think the .40-82 Silhouette also makes a wonderful one gun compromize cartridge - and with a lot less shoulder bruising.

[Lead pot]

Hey Butler
I dont have Makers Mark will Old Grand Dad work??? :gulp: Lp.

[ButlerFord45]

Lead Pot,  Ol' Gran' Pappy is my "everyday" whiskey