Reloads

[Mikey]

CK:  The arguement has been put forth, and I believe by Massad Ayoob, that the use of reloaded ammunition may be seen (notice I said 'may') by some DAs as a cause to charge that you were out looking to use the gun.  This would or could be interpreted as pre-meditated, in which case you have a tougher uphill battle.

There has also been some discussion and thought given to the idea that since you can't really reload anything better that what the factories currently produce for Police and Law Enforcement, even handloads cannot be viewed as being more destructive or inhumane.  

My only concern for reloads is their reliability.  Factory quality control is very good to excellent these days.  Your chances of finding your pistol or revolver loaded with a cartridge that will not detonate is extremely slim - but it does happen.  If you could guarantee better results or reliability with handloads then you could use them.  

I cannot recall if I have seen a handgun load come along in the past 10 years, for carry purposes, that really outclasses anything we used to be able to handload.  Hollowpoints and softnoses don't do any better than semi-wadcutters, or straight wadcutters for that matter.  10 mms or 40s don't do any better than 45s with ball, and the pocket rockets usually work best or function more reliably with ball than not.  

So you really need to ask yourself if it is worth it to chance the concern of reliability more than legality.  Hope this helps.  Mikey.

[DEPUTY]

thi shas been brought up in crt years ago thats why it has been talked about! the best thing going is to use the say ammo carried by your local pd or state police, or sheriffs dept

[KING]

:grin: DO NOT...and I repeat..DO NOT,carry reloads in your self defense handgun.  Use only factory ammo.  I would hate to have the perps atty say that the factory ammo was not destructive enough for you so ya had ta role yer own.  Which,will occure............King

[L-Roy]

ck----,
mikey's advice is solid.  If you have any doubt about factory ammo, fire some of the ammo selected by you for function in your firearm.  Then carefully visually inspect each cartridge to be carried while looking for proper seating of primer (believe it or not, some have been found seated backward!), weigh each to insure that powder IS carried within the cartridge, and assure yourself that each WILL chamber in your firearm!

[Mikey]

ck:  I wrote back yesterday about this topic and thought I wa absolutely right in advising you the way I did.  But, I also checked with my attorney last night and we had a pretty good discussion about it.  

He felt that if you carry reloads that are designed to expand and cause a non-healing wound, like the Police/FBI loads do or did, that is when the defense attorney would paint the picture of your being a gunslinger out looking for trouble and the first opportunity to test out your death-dealing reloads.  But he also felt that if you were carrying reloads that were/are not designed to expand/blow up, peel back or cause some sort of a non-healing wound, and if these reloads were at the same power levels as factory ammunition then you would not be seen as someone with an agenda to knock off every criminal you could find.  

It is interesting that a bunch of years ago my late wife had to use her 38 snubbie in a defensive situation.  Upon investigation, the Police Officer remarked that she was glad my wife had been shooting the older Police loads (158 grain SWCs) because the Judge didn't like those nasty 'peel-back' hollow-points that are available now.  

A friend purchased one of S&Ws new Titanium 38 when the first came out and two boxes of the recommended 125 grain non +P loads - waste of money on those loads.  He was afraid to shoot reloads because one gunwriter said the bullets might back out of the cases when fired from a light weight revolver.  My 200 and 158 grain SWCs at factory velocity and pressures and my 148 grain wadcutters at factory velocities all performed better from his revolver than the factory loads did and he now carries standard 158 grain SWCs.  

King's point is all too well taken, and appreciated.  Especially because you feel the need to be able to defend yourself, the authority to do anything but that is beyond you.  If a fatal experience occurs to an aggressor because of your defending yourself you must absolutely be pictured as 'The Victim' who was forced to defend himself, not the 'Cowboy' who was out lookin' for trouble.

And to be honest I think you can do as well at defending yourself with SWCs from a snubbie as you could with the jsps or jhps.  Mikey.

[leadbutt]

Mickey, a hundred years ago it seems now we used to take hollow base wad cutters and load them backwards,to shoot out of our 2" belly guns,and believe me they worked,but times change,you need to look at the area you work and live in,Any place up and down the East coast, or the PRK on the west coast go with what the cops carry,it is the only way to stay even with the board

[DEPUTY]

i have news for you! your super secret handloads wouldnt have done any better!  if he was super doped up as you say! p.s what dept was he with!  i would like to get a coy of the shooting reports! for my files?  but tosay htat your super load would do better than the dept load is most likley off base! some times it is down to tactics and shot placement! period if the major orgins and bone structure were not hit them it is of no use anyhow! shoot move to cover and shoot again! failure drill! 2 rnds cm then 1 to head or pelvic griddle!  and bad advise will get you in more trouble if you live through the shooting

[KING]

If its any consolation to what type of rounds you are carrying in your guns you might find the following bit of information interesting.  In 84 rather large(604,280 lb.,) individual held up a liquor store.  At the time he was about as cranked as your could get on PCP.   When the good guys got there he opened up with a .45 that he used in the holdup.  He was hit four times in the chest area with 12 gauge slugs.  He was also hit three times with 12 gauge buckshot rounds.  No I think that pretty much all of us are familiar with these rounds and the point is that he was being hit inside of 25 feet.  He also received 5 chest hits with thte officers duty handguns.  At this time I think that they were carring .38.  The bad guy still remained on his feet and was still shooting.  The story ends when one of the good guys punched him in the back of the head with a .38..a CNS hit.  At that point the bad guy hit the ground and the firefight was over.  This entire incident took place in under 30 seconds,seeing that there was about 5 cops on the scene at the time of the fight.  The point is.   If they are cranked up,they aint going down unless it is a CNS type of hit.  It made no difference what he was being hit with,he felt no pain and no one told him that he was dead yet.   King :twisted:

[leadbutt]

S.Summer, I am sorry for you lost friend I have lost far too many over the last 30 years,but deptuy is right more than likely no HANDGUN ROUND would have stopped the perp.

I have heard the screw I'll use what ever line for years and know two gentleman that did that and went to prison,and as they have told me never again that is one place that no surrives with out serious mental damage

[KING]

Where ya will here the problem guys is in a civil court.  If the pros. is looking at you on a bad shoot,its not going to make a lot of differance on what ya shot the bad guy with.  Again,the only way a pros. is going to look at you is if it is a bad shoot,not your ammo.  If ya pop a bad guy today,you will get sued civilly fer sure,  It just goes with the action.  If you are in civil court,and the pros. did state  that yer shoot was justafiable,then the only thing his relatives(that bad guys) can attack you on is your ammo that you used,caliber of gun(,44 mag,with hopped up loads,fer carring inna city etc.),or the fact that ya took a loving father with nineteen kids away from his family.  OOOOps gotta go,im being paged.   king

[KING]

Sorry guys,im back again.  The other problem is if ya maim the dipstick and dont kill em.  We had a good shoot,where the LEO,tapped the bad guy 5 otta  five in the chest.  He went down fer the count.  The shoot was justafied by the pros,cause he had a knife.  The only living relative was the sister (who called us inna first place,cause he was raising hell and breaking up her residence.,he also had raped her three weeks earlier)and now she was saying,after the fact,how nice he was.  That civil trial went in the tubes fast,but it still occured.   In my career I dont know of where anyone has had to defend himself in criminal court just based on the ammunition that he had used.  But I do know of several where in a civil action,the judge did not like that he was using a special handload that he had developed.  The thought was " that the commercially made ammo was not,potent,enough,so now you had to go and make yer own so you can be more sure of the results."  I was a cop for 32 years and carried every day of that career,but,I carried factory ammo.  King   If this pager goes off one more time,its gunna be in pieces !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[onesonek]

Some time back, my job required carrying large sums of cash. I had talked with our sheriff, and got a carry/conceil permit. I had purchased an American Arms derringer 45-410. With 255 gr. factory loads, recoil was punishing. And accuracy was poor, at ranges beyond spitting distance.  I thought I could cure the that problem, by stuffing 5-00buck in a 410 3". It worked, 4" group at 10 feet, but penetration test were poor. I am currently waiting for some Sellier/Belliot 410 2 1/2" 3-000buck, to test. If they don't perform the way I want them to, I'll settle for 225 factory stuff, to reduce recoil.  There is "food fo thought" in the earlier post. I can see, where civil court could pose problems in a legal defense shooting. I was told by several authorities though, if you have to shoot, make sure you take a killing shot. which makes me wonder about the derringer at anything over hand shaking distance. Thank God I live in an area, where  the need is slim, but I still believe in being prepared. As if everyone were, there would be alot less assulting type crimes. O.

[Savage]

Guys,
I carry factory duty ammo. The primary reason is that I can't load anything better!! Within the pressure limitations of the cartridge I cannot attain the factory velocities!  I'm talking crono here. The quality of premium factory ammo cannot be improved on by handloading. At least that's my opinion. Twenty years ago it was a different story. Super Vel changed all that. I used to carry reloads years ago when the majority of factory ammo was ball for the autos and lead RN or SWC in revolver.
I have been hadloading over thiry years and have done my share of expermenting. Some of the results were spectular!! I carry the Ranger LE ammo on duty in .45 and 185 gr Gold Dots in my Glock 36. Never had a ammo related malfunction using this ammo, and I've shot wheel barrow loads of it. I don't think an attorney could make a case against anyone for using reloads in a self defence situtation. Due to the low volume we need for carry and self defence I don't know why anyone would carry reloads though. Most of the SUPER reloads I've tested fell far short of factory performance unless they were well above accepted pressure levels------
Whatau think, guys??
Savage

[Savage]

Oops! Posted on the wrong topic!! I meant for this to be posted on "Handloads for Self Defence" perhaps a kind moderator will move it for me.
Thanks,
Savage

[DEPUTY]

this post will be removed and reported to the ATF ! IT IS ILLEGAL ! TOPIC IS LOCKED! YOU ARE REQUESTED TO TO NO LONGER POST THIS TYPE OF GARBAGE!  OR YOU WILL BE REMOVED! PERIOD! CONSIDER YOUR SELF WARNED!

[Graybeard]

Deputy and all. This person has been a real pain in the butt on this site for years. In the past we've had to ban him to keep his stupid posts off this site. May have to do so again.

I dont' have time to deal with it right now but will in the very near future. Feel free to delete ALL POSTS you see by him. He is a washed up has been who's only claim to fame is he won some shooting match back in the 70s. Thinks he is the world's foremost authority on handgun self defense issues. All he wants to discuss is his super velocity loads. He will be gone again when I get the time to make it happen.

GB