45/70...200 yd?

[Woodbutcher]

Dear Veral:
 The new Hornady ammo for 45/70 is supposed to be really hot stuff for deer hunting, 200 yds and so forth!
 It should be, costs enough! The ballistics tables look really good, 325 gr. @ 2050 fps muzzle, and enough at 200 yards to generate a bit over a thousand foot/pounds. 3 in high at a hundred yards and 4 in low at 200.
  I just returned from the range and at a hundred yards, the NEF Handy is getting maybe 2 1/2 in. or less, with this ammo. And that wasn't with the best sandbagging setup, fer sure! So 200 yards seems within reach to me accuracy wise, so far! Gotta shoot paper first.
 Is this kind of ballistic performance is doable with cast? Is a pointed bullet necessary for this? Are standard molds available for 45 cal. pointed bullets? Is this worth worrying about? Or would you advise a standard 300gr. or 350 gr. with a gas check. Paper patch, maybe?  Heavier bullet?
 As old as this cartridge is, and with as many things that have been done with it, I'm not going to reinvent anything, that's Hornadys job. Can this be a 200 yard deer cartridge with cast?
                                                                   Woodbutcher

[Scott T]

It has been a fine 200 and even 300 yard cartridge for those who learn to shoot it well.  And you don't need to push it that hard.  My .45-70 shoots a 522 gr bullet at 1100fps and kills like lightning.

You just have to put the bullet in the right place.

Aoudad at 127yds:


Whitetail doe at 80yds:


100yd group:


200yd group:


300yd group:


It is the man and not the machine that makes it happen. If you burn enough powder, you really don't need that flat trajectory and you don't have to put up with all that recoil.

BTW, here is a 200yd shot from last year on a cull buck:

[Woodbutcher]

 Dear Scott T:
 Thank you. You are a gentleman, Sir. Your very gracious response is exactly what I needed! And, you shoot a fine looking rifle.
 I was headed in the wrong direction, and you straightened me out. I'm going to be OK now!
                                                                                          Woodbutcher
   

[Scott T]

I'm sorry if I offended you.  That was not my purpose. 

If you want to be able to use the .45-70 at 200yds without taking into consideration the trajectory, it can be done, but most folks would not enjoy the recoil.

   

[Woodbutcher]

 Scott! I'm not offended! Heavens to Murgatroid! I meant what I said!
 He who tells me the truth is my friend!
 You said things with more clarity than anything I've ever read!
 Let's see now, a heavier projectile (500 grs. vs 300 grs.) will maintain its velocity better than a lighter one, same diameter. Might start out slower, but that's not an issue in this case.  Gee, I think I forgot, thats why I was fascinated with this cartridge in the first place. And the bruise on my shoulder speaks of my regard for recoil!
 I've been lookin at molds for a 500 gr bullet, instead of 300, and it won't need a gascheck. Found a local source for 500 gr lead bullets, today, to try out, before I get a mold.
 By all means, tell me I'm a durn fool, but help me get started in the right direction! I would not disagree with you!
 And that is a fine looking rifle!
                                                                 Sincerly, Woodbutcher   
                                                         
                                                       

[Scott T]

I'll bet Veral can make you a dandy mold.  I am using a Lyman 457123 that I bought used off of e-bay.  I only shoot black powder and I appreciate the fact that this one carries a lot of lube.

I may talk to Veral about a flat point with big lube grooves sometime.  His molds are certainly easier to cast with!

I have been adjusting to some new blood pressure medication lately and hoped I did not go over the top with my response to your original post.

Best regards,

Scott

[Veral]

  Most 45-70 buyers purchase with the intentions of using lead only, I believe. 

  You'll find there is a good middle ground so far as bullet weight, and it was established years ago at 405 gr.  That's enough weight to both shoot accurate out to long ranges and kill clean and quick when it gets there.  I would recommend my 400 gr LFN, with gas check, and drive it at about 1600 fps max.  Faster and it won't kill as quick on a consistent basis, and with this speed 200 yard shots will be very easy to make.  Once you are used to the trajectory, 400 yard hits on deer size game will be easy. 

   The best way to learn trajectory of a rifle is to shoot a lot at long range with unknown distences.  Like at prarie dogs, jackrabbits and rocks or dirt clods.  You'll quickly learn to throw your shots high just like a baseball pitcher learns to.  It will come automatic with out trying to calculate yardage, drop etc.  Best of all you can afford to get that good with cast.

  Heavier bullets will increase recoil quite dramatically if driven at equal speed, and if shot slower to get similar recoil, trajectory will be much higher and kill speed slower.  Please read down through the questions on this forum and read all that pertain to lever guns and the 45-70.  You'll learn a lot I believe, but one thing you need to know for certain is.  Get a bullet diameter that fills the cartridge to a close chamber fit.  Probably 80% of the molds I make for 45-70 are 460 diameter and larger, and few guns will shoot their best with 458 or smaller.  For top accuracy the bullet MUST be held in alignment as it slides out of the cartridge. 

[Woodbutcher]

 I believe you two gentlemen will straighten me out yet. Thank you! Scott, you take care, and remember, laughter is indeed the best medicine.
 I would have responded yesterday, but i was huntin. I came home so tired I stunk!
                                                                            Woodbutcher

[Scott T]

With one proviso Veral, you have to shoot the same rifle and load for a while to get that trajectory down.

[Veral]

  Glad you mentioned it Scott, because my recommendation doesn't work if you don't use one combination of gun and load long enough for it's use to become second nature.

  For the last 100 years I've been adamant about using only one bullet and load in all my guns, set the sights and don't change them unless a need arises with that load.  (Well maybe not quite a 100 years!)  I'll play with all kinds of bullets, but don't change the sights on my working guns unless I change to a new load.

  My longest range hit, on a trotting feral dog, was 525 yard, shot off hand, using my 30-06 with 180 gr cast started at 2400 fps, which was my working load at the time.  The shot fell precisely through the boiler room, though I held well ahead and over the canine, by feel. Kentucky windage is a common term.  People who learn this are deadly with whatever gun they carry.

[Scott T]

You are so right, I shot the same rifle for years and was pretty good with it.  Then I started buying new guns.  Mistake.  I should have stuck with that first rifle and spent my money on ammo.