Author Topic: Rockwell Results  (Read 2549 times)

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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Rockwell Results
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2006, 10:02:41 AM »
My point on number 2 is Gordon isn't going to say anythng about a product of the old company, so you're in the dark on that one.

Well, here's another one for you to figure out, why the new designation for next year's .444Marlin is an SBS, and not SB2....only they know. ???

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline pills

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Re: Rockwell Results
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2006, 10:17:25 AM »
I am not that far advanced. Will leave the SBS to you.
...You do not open your mouth without all the facts period...

Matt

Remember this, my dear brothers and sisters: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and should not get angry easily. James 1:19

Offline Fred M

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Re: Rockwell Results
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2006, 01:34:11 PM »
Pills.
Before you challange my statements you need to read all of what I said, instead of picking a word out of context. I said it three time that I did not know whether the SB2 is an alloy or straight cast iron. Back thrust calculation indicate that cast iron at  18-23ksi is strong enough for shotgun frames and is much cheaper.

You ask 3. Why does the 10 gauge need a special SB2 frame and a .410 work on a SB1 since the .410 is a higher pressure round?
   (For that matter it seems the 10 gauge is the lowest pressure of all shotgun rounds.)

This question arises from your lack of understanding back thrust. The 410 and the 10gauge operate with the same max pressure 11.9ksi same as all the rest of shotguns.( see Hodgdons reloading data) Please get you facts straight.

The difference between the two gauges is that the 10gauge generates 3-1/2 times the back thrust of the 410 with the same pressure, hence the SB2 frame. Is that a brow beating.

Anyway if you don't want to believe what the factory has to say about the SB1 frame strength, then take one install a hydraulic piston and stress it untill it breaks, then you know for sure.

Quote:  Some are just afraid to post due to the brow beating they might get. Too bad.

Man you really put your foot in your mouth on that one.

McLearnen, you are also an engineer what is your learned opinion, your are dealing a lot more in metals than I have. You prety well said the same what I said.

Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline cheatermk3

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Re: Rockwell Results
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2006, 01:41:57 PM »
Hey Fred--

Tell us what you really think  ::)

Offline MSP Ret

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Re: Rockwell Results
« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2006, 01:57:39 PM »
Well said Fred!!!....<><.... :)
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline Fred M

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Re: Rockwell Results
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2006, 03:16:33 PM »
 cheatermk3

Hey Fred--
Tell us what you really think 


Please be a bit more specific of what I supposed to think about what. I will do my best to answer what ever you like to know, if I can.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Rockwell Results
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2006, 03:23:40 PM »
Fred, I think Cheatermk3 is teasing you about saying what's on your mind, "don't pull any punches, just spit it out"...sorta thing....which you did and did very well, I might add. :D Some folks here forget that north of the border, there is a language barrier that sometimes doesn't get crossed real well with all content understood.

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline pills

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Re: Rockwell Results
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2006, 04:15:56 PM »
I am not taking anything out of context. I am quoting you. Here it is again

"You guys can argue all you want, but the SB2 frame is made as an investment casting with high quality steel with a tensile strenfth of 85kpsi +."

and now you say this?

I said it three time that I did not know whether the SB2 is an alloy or straight cast iron.

I admit I am ignorant but I for some reason I tend to think there is a difference between iron and steel. Please feel free to direct me to the links where you said you didn't know what an SB2 frame was made of because this is the latest one I found.


I asked you this question and will post it again just in case you missed it:


So which is it Fred: Is an SB1 Cast iron? One word answers help take away wiggle room. In the other post you definately implied it is cast iron.

I posted this question in regards to your statements:

"The Rockwell hardness test is performed only on heat treated steel. Never heard of being used on cast iron".

and

Whether the frame (cast iron) can stand the stress is the question.


Even though you skipped that question and moved to ones meant for Gordon I will give you the courtesy you have not afforded me.

As for #3. The reason I posed that question in the exact manner I did was because on this very board on numerous occasions pressure and pressure alone have been given as indicators as to why certain barrels will not work on a SB1 frame.

Please forgive me for not accepting what the factory has to say. They have a policy of no barrels installed unless they install them. Seems they kinda have the monoply on that one. The manufacture on my car tells me to obey all speed limits. My car will run well over 100mph. To the best of my knowledge there is no place in the USA that has a speed limit of 100mph. In this day and age of lawyers and lawsuits I cant help but wonder if someone in a suit makes a decision so they dont get sued. If it is a valid decision that is fine. I am still waiting for the reason.

Maybe your lack of understanding to what the term brow beat means led to your response. When a new member comes into these forums and ask a question that has been answered by the experts they are given very short answers. If they pose a question they are told to look in the FAQs or some other post. If you feel it is a problem to answer someone then dont. Dont get your blood pressure up over it.

I never said you were afraid to post for fear of brow beating. I was referring to others who might have an opinion that disagrees. I have a good friend who has been a machinist for longer than I have been alive. He knows more about metal than I will ever care to. He will be reading this post but refuses to join this board because the way folks are spoken to.

Funny on the surface it seems so innocent of a question. So simple to. Maybe I will reword it.

Other than looks and sound what makes a SB2 frame different from a SB1?




...You do not open your mouth without all the facts period...

Matt

Remember this, my dear brothers and sisters: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and should not get angry easily. James 1:19

Offline pills

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Re: Rockwell Results
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2006, 04:27:33 PM »
For the record: I also remember this comment and take it into consideration:

The Rockwell hardness test is performed only on heat treated steel.


http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,105211.msg1098296030.html#msg1098296030

...You do not open your mouth without all the facts period...

Matt

Remember this, my dear brothers and sisters: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and should not get angry easily. James 1:19

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Rockwell Results
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2006, 04:28:45 PM »
They have told us that the difference is the SB2 frame is heat treated and the SB1 isn't, but it's obvious from the appearance of SB1 frames, that's not the only difference and H&R won't tell us what they are made of or to what pressures they are tested to. Beyond that, it's just speculation on our part to figure out what the other details of their mfr are. Until they offer more info, that's pretty much as far as we can go with this topic.

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline cheatermk3

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Re: Rockwell Results
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2006, 04:30:36 PM »
Yes that was sarcasm--I have a warped sense of humor I guess..but really, someone went to a lot of extra effort to get some numbers for us to consider so I thank the original poster.

I'm no engineer but I believe that hardness and tensile strength are different properties.

The bottom line is that the SB1and SB2 receivers apparently have variations within each designation, which all fall within the factory's tolerances for each.  Just like any other mass-produced product.

I was very supprised years ago when the first handis came out chambered in high intensity cartridges.  For sure, the NEF frames stretch enough with high-intensity loads that the cases can and often are warped.  I've seen this in an older hornet that was rechambered to 218 Bee and a factory 243 that was rechambered to 6mm AI.  You would not notice this unless you had a concentricity gauge.  

The 218 had about 1800 hot loads through it before I noticed reduced case life, I think a shim in the hinge pin/lug recess would have cured it, for a while anyway.  The 243 did it NIB, but that was with fireform loads.  I had the brilliant (I thought) idea to rechamber the handi, which I had very little $$ into, chambered up with the reamer I bought for my custom remington, which I had also used to cut the custom dies.  I thought I'd save wear and tear on my new Shilen barrel by fireforming 500 cases for the rifle in the handirifle's barrel.  Good thing I checked the cases of the first 3 rounds I fired--they went from straight to .003" runout, right at the head, measured as close to the end of the case as I could--You could shoot groundhogs all day and never notice it but it was there and it bothered me so I abandoned that idea.

EDIT:
Wow I type slow--three posts between when I started typing and when I posted. 

Or, maybe I should change my username to windymk3...

Offline pills

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Re: Rockwell Results
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2006, 04:36:24 PM »
They have told us that the difference is the SB2 frame is heat treated and the SB1 isn't, but it's obvious from the appearance of SB1 frames, that's not the only difference and H&R won't tell us what they are made of or to what pressures they are tested to. Beyond that, it's just speculation on our part to figure out what the other details of their mfr are. Until they offer more info, that's pretty much as far as we can go with this topic.

Tim

The only problem that I have encountered with the factory so far is that I am in posession of a gun that never existed. I think you have one as well.

Thanks cheatermk3. That is the closest thing to a compliment I have gotten in the open.
...You do not open your mouth without all the facts period...

Matt

Remember this, my dear brothers and sisters: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and should not get angry easily. James 1:19

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Rockwell Results
« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2006, 04:39:41 PM »
It's really a moot point if we have a problem with what H&R has told us, isn't it! We get to play by their rules whether we like it or not as far as factory barrel fitting.

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline pills

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Re: Rockwell Results
« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2006, 04:42:26 PM »
For factory barrel fitting you are absolutely correct. Thankfully they put a screw on the forearm that makes it easy to take the barrel off.  ;)

The good news is you might just hit 10k in this topic alone.  :o




...You do not open your mouth without all the facts period...

Matt

Remember this, my dear brothers and sisters: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and should not get angry easily. James 1:19

Offline cheatermk3

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Re: Rockwell Results
« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2006, 04:52:15 PM »
pills:
You're welcome--but if you're fishing for compliments this is definately not the place unless you post pix of nice handis.

Seriously I realize that you're not fishing for anything but info; it's just that there have been so many iterations of the handirifle, the NEFs, the Toppers, shotguns, gen. 1, 2, of the hipower frames etc., that generalizing about them really is not productive except in relation to each other, not in absolute terms. 

And yes, pencil-pushers in white shirts with law degrees tell factory reps what they can and cannot say to the public(you and me).  Their policies(no non-factory-fitted barrels, no reloaded ammo, etc)  are what they are for profit-driven motives.  We live in a litigious society--better than a blood feud over a dispute, I think...(code duello maybe?).

The market for the handirifle is this: parents on a budget who want to give their son or daughter a safe, reliable hunting tool.

That we handihaulics get so much more out of them is just our good fortune. 

Durnit quick you type fast!  You too pills!

Offline Fred M

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Re: Rockwell Results
« Reply #45 on: December 10, 2006, 05:14:33 PM »
Pills
I said it three time that I did not know whether the SB2 is an alloy or straight cast iron.

Sorry this is a typo it should say SB1. But if you were reading the  sentence above you would know it was a typo, instead of fishing for criteque.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline pills

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Re: Rockwell Results
« Reply #46 on: December 10, 2006, 05:22:07 PM »
Ok that was a typo.You meant to say SB1. I will take your word for it. Does that answer the question I have now asked three times?

I asked you this question and will post it again just in case you missed it:


So which is it Fred: Is an SB1 Cast iron? One word answers help take away wiggle room. In the other post you definately implied it is cast iron.

I posted this question in regards to your statements:

"The Rockwell hardness test is performed only on heat treated steel. Never heard of being used on cast iron".

and

Whether the frame (cast iron) can stand the stress is the question.


While you are at it do you want to explain the comment?

The Rockwell hardness test is performed only on heat treated steel.

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,105211.msg1098296030.html#msg1098296030
...You do not open your mouth without all the facts period...

Matt

Remember this, my dear brothers and sisters: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and should not get angry easily. James 1:19

Offline Indian Creek 1

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Re: Rockwell Results
« Reply #47 on: December 10, 2006, 06:06:12 PM »
I had read some where that both the SB1 and the SB2 are investment cast steel  but the SB2 receives a further heat treatment which adds the additional strength.  I don't know how much truth there is to that or what grade of steel if the same or not.

Offline Fred M

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Re: Rockwell Results
« Reply #48 on: December 10, 2006, 06:33:36 PM »
Pills
Rockwell testing is done on high tensile and hardened heat treated steel such as ball bearings and other steel subjected to high wear. High tensile steel subjected to elongating stress, stretching, shear etc need not be tested for Rockwell hardness since it serves no purpose.  High tensile steel is hard,  like 85 to 135ksi.

I said it three times that I did not know whether the SB1 is an alloy or straight cast iron. I said if you can read, that that cast iron with  18-23 ksi tensile could serve in a SB1 shotgun frame.

I also said why would H&R make two kinds of frames if there was no montary benefit. Since both use the same kinds of mould it can only be the material. Like cast iron which is cheap.

Other than looks and sound what makes a SB2 frame different from a SB1?

Since you have all the answers, you tell me.

If you have anymore questions you best address them to others, I am having a headache coming on from verbose and verbalism.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline Joel

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Re: Rockwell Results
« Reply #49 on: December 11, 2006, 02:53:19 AM »
As someone who has been making custom knives for the last 10 years, I think a lot of ya'll are a bit confused by this thread.  There's been some correct things said about Rockwell, and a whole bunch of pure BS, far as I can tell.  This is what I KNOW...not my opinion.

1.  As stated the Rockwell C scale is for martensetic(heat treatable) steel.  It is a measure of hardness  only, however that number can be of considerable significance as far as receiver  strength goes. What the Rockwell number says is that the steel has been HT'd to it's optimum value and that the steel will perform as expected.  I can take several different knife steels..440C, ATS-34, O-1, D-2 etc and heat them to any flippin Rockwell number I chose.  At that number some will be at what is known as optimum Rockwell, the others will either be too soft or too hard and brittle. Where the Rockwell C number is important in receivers is that over heating the receiver to too high a number will cause the receiver to become brittle.  A brittle receiver will crack.  That was a big thing at one time with the low number/high number Springfield rifle receivers...some were inproperly heat treated at the armory and were too hard and brittle to stand constant 30-06 pressures without cracking....they had lost their ductile strength.  If you're thinking that this indicates that the rockwell C number means whether a receiver is strong or not....technically you're wrong, since it's (again) looking at hardness. However to understand the rockwell number's signifigance, you have to know what the steel is and what it's proper rockwell should be.
 To re-state, all martensetic steels have an "optimum" hardness, and a specific steel is chosen for a job based on it's fitting those characteristics when properly heat treated.  Should a rockwell test indicate improper numbers for that particular steel, then it will either be too soft or too hard/brittle...either one of which can cause problemsJust about all modern rifle receivers are between 25-30 at the Rockwell C scale. For the practical, everyday user of such products then, the number does indicate strength, however technically incorrect that is to the metallurgist.


2.  Based on what the factory said years ago, and what was posted at the Yahoo NEF forum back then, the earlier receivers thru the SB1 are made of "sinctered iron", not alloy steel. In order for a iron based metal to be considered steel vs iron, the amount of carbon in the matrix has to be at least .4% by volume...if it aint, it ain't steel.

3.  Non-martensetic "steels" get their strength by being work hardened, rather than heat  treated.  Soooo, forging a scintered iron receiver gives it its strength.  Doing a rockwell test on it using the C scale gives erroneous results... I think the proper scale is the B scale for those types. The SB1 receivers are not stronger, they are being subjected to the wrong test/rockwell scale.

4.  Were you to cross section an older receiver and the newer SB2's, you wouldn't have to be a metallurgist to visually understand why the older receivers are weaker.  Scintered iron has very large, irregular grains, arranged in a  random manner with lots of air space between the grains.  A good alloy steel will have smaller grains, more regularly distributed with much less space between the grains.  Try considering a stone fence made of large irregular rocks and one made of small well fitted and shaped pebbles.  At the same size and thickness, the pebble fence will actually be much stronger.

5.  While the Brinell numbers give you a much better indicator of load bearing strength, they are still not quite accurate, but much closer than any number the Rockwell will give you.  Gun steels also need special characteristics such as being ductile(flexible) to accommodate the large pressures in modern cartridges and to allow passage of a tight fitting object such as a bullet down a tube that is the same size, usually, as the bullet.  Try pounding a 1/4 inch hard steel rod into a 1/4 inch hard steel plate, and you'll get my drift.

6.  The older receivers could handle the fairly high pressure 22 Hornet at it's nominal 40K CUP, since there was enough sheer mass to offset the rather small surface area of the rear of the Hornet case. Clumsy, but it works as long as you don't change any  of the parameters.

 

Offline oldandslow

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Re: Rockwell Results
« Reply #50 on: December 11, 2006, 05:31:09 AM »
Excellent post from Joel.

Anyone wanting more information that a layman (me) can easily understand should go to the library and pick up two books. One is "The Science and Practice Of Welding
" by A. C. Davies and has an excellent chapter on metallurgy complete with photos. Another is "The Procedure Handbook Of Arc Weding" from Lincoln Electric and has a chapter on properties of materials which covers about any stresses that can be placed on steel.

Offline pills

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Re: Rockwell Results
« Reply #51 on: December 11, 2006, 06:02:34 AM »
I never said I have all the answers. That is why I have approached this forum asking questions. What I have received is a bunch of speculations. You have now said you do not know what a SB1 frame is made of. I would assume the same for a SB2. You are not the only one as I don't either.

I have a sneaky suspicion had the Rockwell test said the SB2 frame was twice as hard we would not be having this conversation on several pages. I have attempted to post tangible data not opinions.

Joel: I am by no means an expert on Rockwell testing. I have never proclaimed that I am nor will I ever. In my pursuit of accurate information this is the first test I have had done on my receivers. Should I gather the resources it will not be the last. One of my main disputes as you may or may not have read is someone saying with a definitive tone that Rockwell testing is ONLY done heat treated steel. As I am sure you know Rockwell testing can be done on all types of metals and even plastics.

To be completely honest I have no idea the difference in the B and C scales. I have never argued that I do. Looking back over my posts I noticed one word that I used that I would change. On page 1 the seventh post is mine. I used the word strength when hardness would have been the proper word. No information I have or have been able to gather gives the true measure of strength. Only hardness.

There has been a post or two indicating an opinion that a SB1 frame is made of Cast Iron not Steel. I will not go back into that as the author is backing away from those statements. I have not cross sectioned either frame as I do not have the extra ones at my disposal.

You say the older frames can handle the 22 hornet because the sheer mass offsets the rather small surface area of the rear of the Hornet case. That is completly logical. The next question that to me would logically follow is what other cases would this apply to?

If the comment about a bunch of pure BS was directed to me please inform me of what I have said that is pure BS.

I will be the first to admit I dont have all the answers. If I did I wouldnt spend so much time searching for them.

With out a doubt there will be some new person come on this board and ask what barrels they can fit on their frames. As long as they dont wonder why  they will be received with open arms.
...You do not open your mouth without all the facts period...

Matt

Remember this, my dear brothers and sisters: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and should not get angry easily. James 1:19

Offline Mac11700

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Re: Rockwell Results
« Reply #52 on: December 11, 2006, 07:04:16 AM »


Here's the differences between the SB-1 shotgun frame...& the SB-2 & 10ga frame...

The Sb-1 isw made of Ductile Iron...

The Sb-2 and 10ga shotgun frame is made of investment cast steel that is heat treated to their specifications...

All  muzzle loader frames are made of ductile iron

The 410/22lr combo is made of Ductile Iron...

Don't expect NEF to give up any trade secretes...it ain't going to happen...They don't owe anyone an explantion on why or what they use in their products...

This is straight from NEF as of today at 11:30 Am CST

Now...for those assuming that it is any different...or that NEF is lying about it...you can take your inquries to them...If you want to do some type of unverifiable testing yourself on them...and say that your findings differ from that of the company...then don't be surprised if you or friends of yours that elect to post about it..are recieved with skeptisim...

Pills...Perhaps you should donate a couple of different frames to be sectioned and tested by some certified testing faucility...it would hold more weight by doing that...but to insist that your friends evaluation of the frames by the test he did as a correct means of assesing the strenght of the Handi frames is laughable atbest...I am not going to debate this with you...since there is no real need in doing so...I understand some folks wanting to be able to utilize all the different barrels on 1 frame...but to say they are 1 in the same is dead wrong...NEF will not take any responsibility for anyone making any changes to...using the wrong barrels on the wrong frames..or modifying the barrels in anyway...period...To do so is at your own risk... ...no matter wither you or someone else has done it in the past..or are currently doing so now and haven't had any problems resulting from it..it is at your own risk that you are doing this..injury or worse could happen if done incorerrectly Same for using a H&R frame not made by NEF with new modern high pressure loads...The frames weren't under their control...and they will not assume any responsibility for them....Funny thing is...most of us here already know this...and have known it for years...It seems to me..that it's just plain common sense...but every now and then...we get a few folks that think they know more than the company...or are just trying to stir up trouble...either case...the matter is moot...until at such time as 1 can present unrefutable proof to the contrary that the company is lying...In the mean time...I suggest that folks not liabale the company anyfurther...by giving a misrepresentation of the true facts...

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline pills

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Re: Rockwell Results
« Reply #53 on: December 11, 2006, 07:26:16 AM »
Funny thing about this entire debate: The first portion of you post is the most informative of any that I have read on the topic.

I have already put all the frames I have up for testing. Unfortunately I do not have extras that could be cross sectioned as of now. For the record my friend that did the Rockwell test is certified by a little known government agency called the FAA. All I did was ask him to test the hardness. That he did. Again I will say that I misspoke when I said strength instead of hardness on page one post seven.

I am currently as I have been in the past in pursuit of the truth on the matter. I hate that some would think I am just here to stir up trouble. The only dealings I have had with the company is when I called and they told me a gun I have does not exist. Never made.

I do not know how I am making the company liable for any statements I have made. Not once have I ever said I am an employee or representative of NEF, H&R or Marlin. If anything they are making themselves liable by not indicating on the receivers whether they are SB1 or SB2.

I will not now or ever apologize for asking questions on what the experts on this board have "known for years". I will apologize if some new guy wanting to have a greater understanding about why the way things are the way they are cause anyones blood pressure to rise.

Feel free to lock this thread again. It should prevent anyone from disagreeing with you any further.


...You do not open your mouth without all the facts period...

Matt

Remember this, my dear brothers and sisters: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and should not get angry easily. James 1:19

Offline Mac11700

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Re: Rockwell Results
« Reply #54 on: December 11, 2006, 08:04:21 AM »


Ok Pills...
Quote
Funny thing about this entire debate: The first portion of you post is the most informative of any that I have read on the topic

Yes...it's real funny...since you could have called and got the same information...

Quote
For the record my friend that did the Rockwell test is certified by a little known government agency called the FAA


Post the certification of the testing done on your frames and by whom...and if they are qualified to test firearms......and let's run it up the ladder to the fine folks at NEF ands see what they think of all of this...Also...you have made this reference before...
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The only dealings I have had with the company is when I called and they told me a gun I have does not exist. Never made.
...and this...
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If anything they are making themselves liable by not indicating on the receivers whether they are SB1 or SB2.
As of now...you have yet to show a picture of this unmarked reciever......Why? Did you buy this gun as new..if so...the serial number assigned to it should have been on the box provided with the firearm...and your dealer should have checked 1 against the other...and your gun dealer should have entered it in to their records by both...and to the ATF as that...or not sold it to you if the data was incomplete...If you bought the gun used or without the box for it...then any number of things could be the reason for it....Making blanket statements on the web that you can prove NEF is lying by referencing your so-called testing done by your friend with out actually being able to prove your statements can be constrused as liable...but...that would be up to NEF's lawyers to persue that...and with the results of such lawsuits recently in the news...is a real possiblity...This thread isn't being locked for now...unless you continue on your quest to disprove the company's statements ...

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline Fred M

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Re: Rockwell Results
« Reply #55 on: December 11, 2006, 08:45:24 AM »
Joel.
You put forth a very good post. Sintered Steel and sintered iron a good US technology. Suppose sintered iron could be called ductile iron. Cast iron has also ductile properties to some point.

What do you understand when H&R says the SB1 frame is made from ductile iron? I would call it cast iron. Of course that does not sound too impressive but it fits the use.

I have known about the sintered steel process but never thought of it. I have a Wayne Godard knife made from VG10 sintered steel patented by the japs and swiped from the US.

Many gun and machine parts are made from powdered steel with various make ups. When the powder is melted all ingredients become a homogeneous entity. There is no separation of components.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Rockwell Results
« Reply #56 on: December 11, 2006, 09:41:44 AM »
I'm locking this one down.

Pills you've presented NOTHING factual to this point. You've made unsubstaniated claims that might or might not be true. Your link is dead.

Case hardening is a SURFACE hardening process only and has no effect on the over all strength of the hunk of metal. It's for wear not strength. The type of metal and any complete heat treating it might or might not get determines the over all strength of the piece.

Unless and until such time as you wish to submit samples to an approved and certified independent tesrting facility don't come back here making claims to have had "testing performed". If you do go to that trouble and expense provide copies of the test results for all to see.


Now to another matter that seems of some concern to folks here. Since you've joined your name has come to my attention many times. Some are quite convinced you're a resurrection of an old member who was back then nothing but a trouble maker. You do seem bent on continuting that tradition. At GBO we really don't take kindly to trouble makers. So be fore warned if it continues you'll be like that former member, ie you'll be a FORMER member. Nuff said.


Bill aka the Graybeard
President, Graybeard Outdoor Enterprises
256-435-1125

I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!