Capabilities of traditional rifles

[jlbeebe]

If you refer to Idaho rons recent story on mule deer hunting, he has confirmed what I have always believed about traditional firearms. They can be just as accurate as inlines. He is making accurate kills out past 150 yards. The farthest shot I have made with my Knight rifle was about 120 yards on a doe. I don't think my .54 hawkins is cabable past 100 yards because it does not have the right twist.
The inline ignition system doesn't make a rifle accurate, it just makes it more dependable. Pellets do not make a rifle more powerful. In my opinion they are just a gimmick that is expensive and less versitile than loose powder. But to each his own. I would not dream of telling someone else they should not use them. The use of a telescopic sight does help the shooter utilize what accuracy a rifle is capable of and helps shooters with less than 20/20 vision. As Idaho ron has shown with the proper sights and obviously good eyesight the traditional rifle is capable of ranges of 150 yards and more.

[Lost Okie]

Capabilities of traditional rifles fall back to the ability of the shooter and how well he knows his rifle.  Several years ago I read a historically accurate article on the battle of New Orleans.  Information provided (if memory serves me 100%) was taken out of british soldiers accounts of the battle.  Ole Hickory and his boys were making head shots at over 150 yrds.  The Brits had muskets and wanted to be under 75 yrds before firing...Per the accounts, the Brits broke ranks because of the extremely accurate shooting.
Just goes to show what can be done if ya practice (in their case, depend on that rifle to feed the family), and have good eyes.

[fffffg]

  the best way to determine if your ready to shoot to 150 yards is to place a paper plate  between 120 and 150 yards with a friend so you dont know how far it is like in a hunting situation.. a little up hill down hill etc..  then in a natural setting without a rest unless you use cross sticks or lean against a tree or somthing that is ok..  then shoot one shot,,  if you hit the plate with a load in the gun thats been setting for several hours and   the first shot of the day, then your ready to go.. . if you miss, practice some more and shoot alot and try it again next year...  just becouse you do it one year does not mean you can do it every year so be sure to  make sure your abilities are up to it each year..  remember a paper plate is about 8-9 inches, and a 10 mile an hour cross wind will blow a round ball about 8 inches.. thats a 16 inch group at 100 yards if the wind changers. considerably more at 150 yards... .. dave

[Idaho Ron]

jlbeebe, Thanks for the kind words.
 But you are right, about the fact that traditional firearms do not have to take a back seat to a inline.  I call mine the poor man's whitworth. With a range finder and a good sight shooting 150 yards is not hard. 200 yards is harder because of light conditions, and the availability of a good rest in the field. Shooting anything at 200 yards is no different than 50 yards. It is just a little farther out.
Ron

[Slamfire]

There are side locks made with a faster twist so you can use lead conicals. They don't give up much in the way of ballistics. The Sheutzen matches at Friendship show the picket style bullet can be quite accurate at 200 yards and even farther. My White Mountain Carbine has a 32" twist, and should be able to range out that far, I just have no place to try it out, nearby.  Then there are the GPHs made for Lyman.

[mspaci]

I didnt know that the white mountain was made w/ 1/32, I have the 1/38 with no qla. I have a peep sight & stack them on top of each other at 50 yards. I only have 100 to practice but when I do my part the shots are right there. Where I hunt 100 yards is quite long anyway so I like to be 1 inch high at 50. Mine also likes real black powder best. Ron, tell us a bit more about the sights on that gun please.  Mike

[flintlock]

Accuracy in a muzzleloader isn't about how the powder is ignited....Its about the sights used (or scope), the barrel...Is it a slow, deep rifling for patched round balls or a shallow faster twist for conicals or saboted bullets....Now, long range energy (using the same powder charge) is more about the design of the projectile used, a patched ball doesn't hold its velocity as well as a conical/bullet...

With traditional muzzleloaders the range is limited as much by using open sights as it is by using patched round balls.....Most hunters just can't hold groups too well past 125-150 yards, whether its shooting a muzzleloader or a .270 with open sights...So patched balls are fine, with a good powder charge behind them and the proper size bore for the game hunted, out to 125 yards or so....

As already stated, you can take a side hammer ML and a fast twist, shallow bored rifle barrel use saboted bullets and a scope and shoot groups just as tight as a inline using a 209 primer to ignite  the charge...You could do this....I just prefer not to!!!

[Idaho Ron]

mspaci,
 I started out using the sights provided by GM, and They stunk bad. I went to a Lyman 57 SML adjustable peep, and a 17AML globe front sight. The inserts that were provided by Lyman for the 17AML were not that great either. I ordered a insert card form Brownells. The Manufacture was a company called Lee Shaver  http://www.egunsmith.com/
The fine post is what i use most of the time. If I am heading out for a evening hunt I might use a Crosshair front sight. If I am heading out in the morning I use the fine pin evey time.
I sighted the gun in with a Laser Range finder. The 57 had index marks on it. After I found out which index marks worked at 100, 150, 200, and 250. I highlighted the index mark on the 57 SML with white paint. When I decide i want to shoot at something I take a range finding, and adjust the sight to the yardage. I do have some hold over or under in some cases. Like my 160 yard shots. I held a little bit high with the 150 but with my sight set to 150 the bullet is only 1.6" low at 160 yards. Now if I had a zero for 100 yards I would have to hold  almost 9" high to hit the same spot.
On a 175 yard shot I set the slider in the middle between 150 and 200. This sight in allows me to shoot 1 leter pop bottles fairly easy. On the same token. Using a 100 yard sight in I would have to hold almost 12" high to make the hit. As you can see being able to adjust the rear sight to the yardage I want is a HUGE benifit.
I also painted the inside of the globe front sight white to help gather light. Then I painted the head of the sight pin Orange and the crosshair is also orange.
In low light at 50 yards or so, or on moving targets the globe front is all that is needed. It is easy to get on target fast.
 Another thing I have found is the peep sight makes my eye focus better than with the original sight.
Regular iron sights are kind of a flawed thought. Your eye can focus on the rear sight, front sight or the target. With a peep I found that it takes one of the focus points out of sighting. I focus on the spot I want to hit and cover that spot with the front pin only.
 About my loads for shooting 150 and even 200 yards. In my opinion a conical is a must for my hunting. At 150 yards the Round ball in a 50 cal only has 425 foot pounds of energy. The 410 gr Hornady conical has 1300 foot pounds of energy.
Again in my opinion after just shooting these into LARGE deer from different angles, and directions, I can say more energy the better. I drove one bullet from the left flank to the right shoulder on the deer. This hit at 150 yards did not take him off his feet, and the bullet expanded to 1" in Dia. I doubt that a round ball at 425 foot pounds would never have made it through the belly full of feed the deer had in him. The one bullet that John shot was a 390 gr Great plains I think. That bullet crashed through the hips of the deer and lodged in the paunch of the deer. It was a hollow point that went through a HEAVY bone before it stopped in the paunch.  The solid point bullet of the 50 punched deeper into the deer than the hollow point 54 did. But I didn't hit the same bone he did.  I asked him what the yardage was on his shot to the hip and it was 130 yards.
Ron

[Slamfire]

I didnt know that the white mountain was made w/ 1/32, I have the 1/38 with no qla. I have a peep sight & stack them on top of each other at 50 yards. I only have 100 to practice but when I do my part the shots are right there. Where I hunt 100 yards is quite long anyway so I like to be 1 inch high at 50. Mine also likes real black powder best. Ron, tell us a bit more about the sights on that gun please.  Mike

Oops! 

[longcaribiner]

Up just north of Shartlesville, PA, there was an wide open trail along the top of the mountain, which ran east and west.  In the early 1970's there was an old man that would set up a picnic table along the trail and sit there with a heavy under hammer muzzleloader 62 cal. bench gun.  He had markers out every 50 yds so he could tell the distance.  Word was, he often got a deer at 300 to 400 yds and occasionally to 500 yds with a round ball.  Of course he was using very heavy powder charges and had about a 60 inch barrel.  I remember the barrel looked like it may have been 2 and a half or three inches across the flats.  I actually met the guy one day when tagging along with a game warden.  The folks down at the gas station at the base of the mountain said it sounded like the world ended when he took a shot.      He was a member of the bench rest club nearby, he showed me a target that had a five shot group about 3 inches, he said he shot at 350 yds.

I myself have used a 58 cal Zouave with round balls and knocked over standard pig silhouettes at 150 yds at a match.

[mspaci]

Ron, thanks for the run down on the sights. I have just ordered a used renegade w/ a nice barrel for $150, the whole gun looks to be 95%,but may go with your sight conf or something similar. It has the TC barrel 1:48 twist so I might see what it will do & If not satisfied try the green mt. It should make a great off season project. Thanks again.  Mike

[captchee]

 How accurate ? That depends .
Really it has less to do with  projectile rifling  and sites as it does  with the shooter . There are many period accounts of 2-400 yards with round balls  on humans . However I would point out  we cant really use this as humans are considerably  of weaker frame them  most all wildlife

 Given a person who has spent time learning their rifle . Mind you a rifle that that shooter has  either purchased or specifically built   for their intended purposes . This is the point where rifling and projectile come into play . However I submit to you that  even if a  give rifle is designed to be capable of holding a 12x12 group at 1000 yards does not mean   that shooter  will ever be capable of shooting anywhere near that distance .
 Why ? Simply put traditional muzzleloading is in most cases not a weapons type that can be just picked up or shot only a couple times a year  and get results at  distances past 150 .
 However , the more technologies we add to that weapon the  less proficient the shooter has to be .

 Example would be adding a 4X variable scope to a slow twist  rifle shooting a round ball .  If  the scope is set  so at to zero that load at a given yardage  and the shooter does his part  they will get an acceptable  pattern.
 Now take that same rifle , replace with open sights  and suddenly  minor flaws in ones shooting technique becomes greatly noticeable  to that shooter and a major problem  . Unless the shooter practices  they  probably even with good eye sight will never  achieve the same level of accuracy at the distant ranges that the scope allows them
 We also have to add in the over confidence that  using a scope gives at greater distances  .

 This brings up the  question of how accurately can a shooter using a traditional muzzleloader shoot using open sights  . that’s also dependent on physical ability as much as visual . IE is the rifle rested . If so what type of rest . If off hand how is the rifle built  can the shooter properly steady their shot , was the rifle design meant to be shot this way .

We know from  reports as well as  documented targets such as those I have posted bellow that  a slow twist rifle , shooting low charges  with open fixed sites  with just  an elbow rest  can if the shooter has done their work hold nickel to silver dolor groups at 100 yards . 8X11 at 200  and beyond .

 With a faster twist shooting conical even of  calibers 50 caliber and larger   5 to 6 inch groups at  4 to 500 yards  if rested  and using  lighter game loads .

 Lastly  are modern weapons more capable then traditional muzzleloaders ? For the general public IMO yes unless confined to open sights  and given projectiles . The ignition itself only comes to play  as a reliability question .  To that I say if a person spends the  time to learn their rifle . Becomes proficient with it   then the reliability  issue is also not any issue at all . So why then the allure of  modern designs ?
 Ill let that part stop right there for you to think about .

 Here are some recorded targets  for you all to consider . Some of you may have seen these  others probably not .

[manofthe45]

That trail is still there although I prefer to hunt it closer to port clinton.  Don't ask me why if I cross the highway I'm right where your talking about.  If you stand at that gas station today it sounds more like world war three than the end of the world.  My neighbers lived here for like 60 years maybe I'lll pick his memory tommorrow.  I've seen targets at Dixon's shot at 3 and 4 hundred yds but I'd like see someone do it personally.  That would be a person who truely knows his firearm.  Longcaribiner stop in at Haags one night I love discuss MLoading with people.

[wgr]

my opion  and  only my opion  all things being  the same   i dont think  there is not much differance in the capabilties of a  rifle   no matter what  it is  cap/flint  r and in line   i say if you have good sights  know your range  and know yous rifle  the end results  will be very close

[bub524]

I think that most muzzleloaders will shoot reasonably accurate.  I've seen guys that have their new inlines with scopes struggle to put a shot on a pie plate consistantly at 100 yards on their once a year sighting trip to our club range. And I've have seen a good old friend in his younger years (Our younger years) shoot 1 1/2"  groups consistantly every time at 100 yds., OFFHAND, with an old CVA 2 pc. stock Kentucky rifle with barely perceptible rifling. Did he have a 1 in a million exceptionally accurate rifle? NO. But he shot it all the time. Went to every shooting event there was and shot the same rifle. AND he could see a 36 cal. RB hole in a paper at 100yds.! When guns don't shoot its not often the guns. Its usually the shooter who doesn't know how to get the most out of them.
Traditional muzzleloading is not about the gun entirely. It is a mind set. Most hunters nowadays have a "sniper" mindset. They were never trained or taught to stalk, slow hunt or sit quietly and wait after doing all their prep work in the woods prior to the hunt. Most modern hunters, although they call themselves sportsmen and outdoorsmen, are not woodsmen. Of necessity they need to take 150-250 yard shots when hunting. A true traditional muzzleloading woodsman seldom shoots at over 75-100 yds. They don't need to. They have the skill set need and the mindset for the close encounter experience. Traditional muzzleloader riflemen shoot a lot all year. The gun is a part of them. Most modern hunters use the rifle like they use shovel at planting time, its a tool, thats all.
Thats my veiw, and thats all. You can argue if you want, but it won't change the veiw.

[Longknife]

Here are some contemporary accounts of the markmanship of the American Riflemen during the Revolutionarey War; ..
" A sentry was killed at 250 yds distance",  Penn. Gazette on the Siege of Boston, 1775."...... One of them was killed at a distance of 250 yards, when only half his head was seen" Penn. Packet, 1775..... "Riflemen can hit a man at 250 yards, and his head if within 150" Virginia Gazette 1775..... "A rifleman had killed from a distance of 400 yards" Virginia Gazette, 1774..... "I am likewise furnishing myself with four-ounced rifle-amusettes, wich will carry an infernal distance, the two-ounced hit a half-sheet of paper 500 yards distance." Charles Lee, letter to George Washington 1776. (Note: by my calculations the fore ounced would be about a one inch bore and the two would be about an .87 bore, These were probably what we call "wallguns" ,  huge musket type long arms that could be transported easily.)    Here is my favorite "Last Wednesday, some riflemen on Charlestown side, shot an officer of note in the ministerial service, supposed to be a Major Small, or Bruce, and killed three men on board a ship at Charlestown ferry, at a distance of half a mile"(800 yds?) Penn. Gazette 1775.
 All these accounts are actual accounts that were recorded during the was by Americans!!!! Were they bragging? lets hear what the British were saying:...." The province has raised 1,000 riflemen, the worst of whom will put a ball into a mans head at the distance of 150-200 yards: therefore, advise your officers who shall here after come to America to settle their affairs before there departure." London Chronicle 1775....."One thousand of these riflemen would cut to pieces ten thousand of your best troops". A Minister of the Church of England 1775....."an unfair method of carrying on war" William Carter, British soldier, 1775..."...shirt-tail men, with their cursed twisted guns, the most fatal widow-and-orphan makers in the world". London Newspaper 1775.  I know these were some amazing distances, I cannot even imagine seeing a man at 800 yds.!!! But as stated in the previous posts, these men knew their rifles, they shot them , carried them, lived and slept with them, and most of all their lives depended on them!!!!!

[mg66]

Traditional muzzleloading is not about the gun entirely. It is a mind set. Most hunters nowadays have a "sniper" mindset. They were never trained or taught to stalk, slow hunt or sit quietly and wait after doing all their prep work in the woods prior to the hunt. Most modern hunters, although they call themselves sportsmen and outdoorsmen, are not woodsmen. Of necessity they need to take 150-250 yard shots when hunting. A true traditional muzzleloading woodsman seldom shoots at over 75-100 yds. They don't need to. They have the skill set need and the mindset for the close encounter experience. Traditional muzzleloader riflemen shoot a lot all year. The gun is a part of them. Most modern hunters use the rifle like they use shovel at planting time, its a tool, thats all.

Good points bub524

My favorite hunting is bow hunting. This has taught me a lot of patience when hunting. It has also taught me to be absolutely quiet and use very deliberate, slow movements. One has to get a deer in under 30-35 yards and 20 yards preferably. This year was my first year muzzleloader hunting, be it with an in-line, next year with a .54 GPR using P&B . Why shoot a deer at 75 yards plus when with patience I can wait until they are a lot closer. I shot 2 deer, one at 25 yards and one at 20. Both could have been shot at 60+ yards but with a bit of patience I was able to wait until they were in close. Not saying I would not take a shot if I felt confident about taking a clean kill if the oppurtunity presented itself at further distances. The rifles will do it, now me that's another story. Also a lot of time went into pre-hunt prep to find deer sign and routes frequently used to pattern them and find the best areas to put up stands and hunt.

Just my 2 cents

[Idaho Ron]

mg66.  that is great you can let them get close. Hunting whitetails in trees gives a guy a big advantage. Out west we don't have that advantage. In fact when Mule deer rut they are hardly ever in the same place very long. Big Mule deer are almost never shot out of a tree. Out here you need to strech your shots. The fact is when you get a 100 yard shot maybe longer at a 30" mule deer you better be able to take it.  Ron

[captchee]

mm cant say i have ever taken a mulie past 100 even with centerfire  and i have taken many a nice buck here through the years . cant say i have ever taken on from a tree stand , ussualy  spot and stock, much diffent then white tail hunting thats for sure  .
 you must hunt the  lower  deasert area  ron ?
i would agree probably long shots down there
I mostly hunt the river bottoms or the hells canyon rim area 

[mg66]

Point taken Idaho Ron.