Weird Barrel Coking At The Muzzle

[bfpgw]

You folks were very helpful with my first Huntsman and it's coking/carbon problem near the breech plug.  The change to Pioneer FFG powder and the 25ACP primers works like a charm.  Now I can fire 16-20 rounds with no appreciable increase in effort to fully seat the charge and bullet.

Now the current problem.  My lovely wife received a Huntsman .50ML last year for Christmas.  We took it to the range to sight it in and develop a good charge for her.  The first shot out of it went straight to the bullseye with 80gr of Pioneer and a 295gr Powerbelt.  The second flew about 6" out and the rest of them were all over the target board.  Good thing I took a very large piece of white paper for behind the target.

The problem appears to be the buildup of gunk in the last 4" of the barrel toward the muzzle.  The breach area is spotless but it feels like I am pushing a cleaning rod through a shotgun with a turkey choke in it when I run a patch in from the breach.  I could barely push the fourth bullet into the muzzle before I would have to clean it with a bore brush like I was cleaning a water pipe in a 150 year old house!

Anyone have a clue what is happening and what I should do about it?  I've not seen anyone who has voiced this malady previously.  When I get the barrel clean there is no rust pockets or high spots that I can see that might make the residue collect there.  I went through four cycles of shooting 3 or 4 rounds and then cleaning it with the brush and all three sessions created the same 4" coked up area.

Help me before the wife loses her enthusiasm for muzzleloader hunting season.

[Keith Lewis]

If that build up is a whitish sort of thing; I have seen the same thing reported once before. I forgot where but apparently it was with American Pioneer powder. No one else had seen anything like it before. Possibly it was one lot of APP powder??  You might try another lot or switch to Goex Pinnacle or Black Mag'3 if you want to continue with ascorbic acid based powders. I have shot a fair amount of Black Mag'3 and occasionally I see a small few spots of white crystals at the muzzle of my Huntsman but nothing that causes a problem loading a second shot. What were the weather conditions when this happened??  If it was very wet that might explain some of it.  Another question; what primer are you using?? Are you possibly shooting a very light load?? After re reading I gues 80gr. is not that light.

[mangulator]

What are using to clean your rifle with and what type of lubication are you using. You may need to clean it more often a minimum of every fifth shot. I clean after every shot if possible at the range.

[bfpgw]

Thanks for the replies mangulator and Keith.  After I posted I went to Pioneer's FAQ page.  They didn't mention the whitish buildup.  Actually, quite a bit in the 4" area I am referring to.  The humidity was high that day, but no rain or drizzle.  Pretty clear but humid.  We had an unusual warm spell over the Thanksgiving holiday.

To answer your questions:
The whitish buildup was significant after three shots.  My Huntsman has done the same thing but only slightly with no ill effect.  Come to think of it, it started after I started using Ballistol oil.  It works great but I may be leaving too much in the bore after cleaning.  The Ballistol does a great job of loosening the white crud afterward though.  Looks like JBWeld on the cleaning patch.

I am using 209 primers with the standard carriers on my wife's Huntsman.  I use a .25ACP conversion from BassPro but that was just recently.

I did use 70gr of Pioneer the first three shots, but the remaining 12 shots were with 80 gr of Pioneer.

Pioneer's FAQ page mentioned heavy buildup if the bore is wet.  They emphasize a very dry bore and no lube, only a slight amount of spit even for round ball shooters.

I've cleaned it again and am going to run a dry patch through it every night for a few nights to see if I can get the barrel really dry and shoot it again this weekend.  I'll let you know what improves the condition so we can pass on some tips to the next confused guy.

[MSP Ret]

I think I may have your problem figured out, it may be the oil. Any type of petroleum based oil interacts with black powder and BP substitutes and contributes to fouling. If you were using BP it would be a black residue, the newer BP substitutes lean towards a whiteish residue. Early ML shooters were able to get off many shots between cleaning for several reasons, the largest of which was the lubricant was bear fat or something similar, they used no petroleum based products at all. Try using some of the "Natural Lube" products, 1000 and 1, and so forth. It works wonders BUT you must clean you gun of all petroleum based products first, LOTS of soap and hot water. from then on you only have to use hot water and the Natural Lube/1000 and 1 (non petroleum based product) for cleaning AND patch and/or bullet lubricant. I use it both in and on the outside of my ML guns, on both the metal and the wood and even use it on some of my cenetrfires and rimfires, it works great. If you buy prelubricated bullets be sure what they are lubed with, a bit of petrolem based product can lead to more fouling. It is the BP or substite residue which is produced at ignition combined under the temperatures and pressures of firing that produce the residue. 1000 and 1 got it's name from the number of shots thet were fired from a TC New Englander (I believe) that was fired that many times over a month or so at the factories indoor cellar range at Ox-Yoke Originals when it was located in Milo Maine. That location is about 11 miles due north of my camp in Maine and I have been to that range and handled the very rifle that they used for the testing. I was shown around by the fellow that did the actual test. It's great stuff but it has to be used correctly, and it cannot be mixed with any petroleum based lubes or oils such as bullet lube or barrel oil. I think the Ballistrol oil may be you problem. I suggest to everyone they try any one of the natural lube products and also advise them they must follow ALL the instructions for them to work, if you do they work great!!! If you try this method, do it 100% correctly and let us know the outcome. Best of luck....<><....

[Keith Lewis]

Sorry but I disagree with the claim that Ballistol is the problem. It has been used extensively by the real black powder people with none of the so called petroleum based oil problems. Actually there is little proof that even the petroleum based oils cause that much of a problem. Much of the lubricant that Traditions uses is petroleum based. I know as I am well aware of who makes the stuff for them. There may be some sort of reaction of Ballistol to the synthetic powders however so there is a remote possibility that it may be causing a problem in this instance. I use Ballistol on my rifles for storage and I shoot Black Mag'3 which is similar to APP in structure and I have only seen a few grains of white crystals at the muzzle end of my Omega after four or five shots.

[MSP Ret]

Thanks for your response and input Kieth, you are correct, I should have said the oil "may be" the problem instead of incorrectly stating "it is" the problem. I have modified my original post to make that correction. With help from the members here I am sure that bfgpw's problem can be solved. The Ballistrol oil may or may not contribute to, or be the cause of, the problem, but as you say you use it yourself and you also see some white grains of fouling at the muzzle. That itself is more substantiation of the possibility of solving the problem by shooting his ML w/o using Ballistol oil or any other petroleum based product. He will never know if he just says that's not the problem and does not try the offered possible soloution. If people thought that way we would still think the world was flat. You yourself have strengthened the arguement by finding a bit of the same whiteish looking fouling at the muzzle of your gun. There are other variables, the amount of oil, ambient temperature, propellent, etc. I feel it's worth trying as a soloution, after all, if removing the petroleum based products from the equation and cleaning his gun well of thier residue before the test firings does not solve the problem he is no worse off, by not trying the offered possible soloution he remains where he is, with the fouling. I suggest try all reasonable offered suggestions until the problem is solved. Thanks for the info on your similar fouling when using Ballistol oil in a ML, I am sure this is a problem which can be solved as long as it is approached as any other problem and you change or remove only one variable at a time, that way you know when you have identified the problem, and of course as in any problem solving excercise you must keep and open mind....<><....  

I seem to remember that changing to that primer system may contribute to some additional fouling but cannot remember what it was for sure since I still only use standard ML caps or Musket caps on my ML's....I use "1,000 and 1" lube, inside and outside, metal and wood. I have been using "777", and prior to this used Pyrodex, and with either I can shoot all day at the range with no major cleaning, I also load and shoot several times during ML season and only clean the gun at the end of the season to put it away with no problems with fouling....  

[mangulator]

I use only bore butter on my muzzleloaders, I have noticed a white powdery substance in my barrel only when I let the barrel set after shooting and there is a lot of humdity. This is the chemical break down of the burnt powder. It can also be harmful to the barrel if not cleaned properly. I use Pyrodex powder and I do not get a heavy build up in the barrel but I clean after every shot when on the range. I clean my rifle after returning to camp. But use a natural lubication like Bore Butter and it might help. 

[MSP Ret]

Thanks for the confirmation mangulator, I also use the natural lube bore butter (aka 1,000 and 1) to lube my patches and/or bullets as well as lube for the entire gun, inside and outside, when I  clean it....<><....

[bfpgw]

Thanks for the insights guys.  Ballistol seems to be very popular among many ML shooters so I am hesitant to blame it alone.  APP seems to be very sensitive about any type of moisture (oil or water) use with their powder.  Since my own ML hasn't had an issue except for a few little white crystals as some of you mentioned, I think I will stick with the Ballistol and APP.  However, this is the first time my wife's ML was shot.  I may not have gotten all the shipping "goo" out of the barrel and may have left too much oil on the bore.  I'm going to try cleaning it really hard with soap and water and run a bunch of patches through it before I try it again.

The bore butter I initially used on my ML was just a big hassle to use.  It was so hard and pasty I had to microwave it to use it and didn't feel all that good about it anyway.  It's probably good stuff, I just didn't like using it.  Isn't that always the way.

If I discover anything really odd I'll report back but I think the problem was more my doing than the gun, powder, or oil at this point.  I hate to point fingers at anything or anybody until I am sure I'm not the problem.

[frmboybuck]

I had the same white gunk and horrible performance untill I got away from the pioneer powder.  Used to shoot pyrodex and no problems. I switched to the latest and greatest pioneer powder and had nothing but problems.Went back to Pyrodex pellets and solved my problem

[lik2hunt]

My Huntsman has never seen any oil based product, only Oxyoke WonderLube (Bore Butter). It's best when used with sabot bullets to run a wet patch then dry patch after every shot at the range. I don't do it in the field though, just load the second shot without it. Used a wire brush on it this year and it was the first time, it did break up a lot of old residue apparently. Just wet the whole bore real good with the Oxyoke and brushed. I only shoot Triple 7 powder thru mine. I have found that a pill bottle with just enough Kroil in it to cover the breech plug when dropped in works great when left sitting for about 15-20 minutes. The black stuff just falls right off.