Lighter bullets: give me your feedback

[John R.]

You only have to put them on yourself if you are casting your own bullets. Believe me all cast bullets are NOT the same. Contact Dave Jennings at Montana Bullet Works for true LBT cast bullets.(www.MontanaBulletWorks.com)  (406) 655-8163 I have been shooting these for the past few months in several different calibers and they shoot great and are devestating on game. (I've shot deer and hogs with them) Hope this helps

[GradyL41]

I rememeber reading the articles about the Project 180 as I think it was called-- anyway I have a wildcat .41 GNR- gray Reeder--  he is big on the 170 in the .41 -- I know nothing of the 180 .44 but have taken some deerwith the 170 and his load  and the bullet gives about 20-25" of pent. in a front on shot and always exits on broad side -- I will not be shooting them in the butt though-I did hit one shoulder and the destruction was bad but no exit --the deer was dead though -Texas heart shot ?maybe anyway Gary claims over 200 deer, Carabou etc  with the 170 and says one of his customers shot throgh the ribs of an elk at fairly close range-- Personally for just any shot i like heavier bullets but when I can pick my shots the 170 does seem to work well-- I make no claims for Garay just quoting him and he does like the 170

[Aaro]

All this talk about a 44mag is good becuse they offer those heavy bullets for it but what about a 357mag? The heaviest you can go is 200 grains so with a 357 do you want to go for heavier bullets or go with a 158-160 grain and load it hot so it will expand? Im just wondering if the same principals apply to this round since it is smaller?

[teddy12b]

Aaro just opened up a whole new can of worms.  Most of the states I've looked have a 357mag with 4-6" barrel as the absolute minimum for a deer hunting pistol.  I'm curious about what you all think about this too, I just wasn't gutsy enough to get it started.

[Aaro]

Well I ask because I am getting one or christmas and am planing on my reloading equipment and one minuet Im planning to get a 125grn hollow point but then I come back here and see this discussion and now Im looking at 200 grn hardcast bullets. Im just really confused!!!?

[ccoker]

the most prevailing advice for a 357 mag is 158g softpoints
american eagle (federal) is recommended, good round, reasonably priced
put it in the right spot and keep your shots in the reasonable range and it will absolutely do it's job

[Racer X]

I know we are talking large-bore handguns here, but I lost a couple deer this season with my 45/70 using 405 grain Wide-Long Nose bullets (.360" Meplat) at about 1500 FPS. These are overkill for deer but after loosing a hog with 300 grain hollow points a couple of years ago, I switched to cast bullets so I would be prepared for either animal. 

Both deer I shots were hit through the shoulders at less than 50 yards. One deer left a small drop of blood about every 20 - 30 feet for hundreds of yards until we lost the trail; the other deer left no blood trail whatsoever. I did kill (and retrieve) 2 deer last year with this same load. A neck shot dropped one of them in its tracks, the other was a facing shot through the upper right shoulder that exited the right ham. The deer jumped, then ran about 40 yards into the woods. I was lucky to find this deer, as again, there was no blood trail.

For deer, I am switching back to hollow points. I haven't shot a hog with the cast load yet so I will have to see how it performs.

[Racer X]

So do you just press the gas check on?  Are pretty much all cast bullets the same quality wise between the different manufacturers?

No, bullets either come with the gas checks installed (crimped on) or are plain-base. Gas checked bullets are a little more expensive but make load development easier because they generally leave no leading in the barrel versus plain base you have to sometimes find the "sweet spot" (i.e., too light a load won't bump up and slug the bore so you getting leading; too hot a load and you get leading).

Not all cast bullets are the same quality. Some cast bullets are too brittle and will fail on game. A good test is to take a bullet, put it on the pavement and whack it with a framing hammer several times. If you are able to beat it til it's flat but has held together, the alloy is suitable for hunting.  If after a couple of whacks it breaks apart or shatters, the bulllet is brittle (high Antimony content) and should not be used for hunting.

Montana Bullet Works, Beartooth, Mt. Baldy Bullets and Cast Performance are considered the best commercial cast bullets and have all passed my hammer test. Don't confuse the lead bullets sold by Speer and Hornady with cast bullets. They are lead bullets, but not cast bullets and can't be run at higher velocities.

[Lone Star]

  ...I lost a couple deer this season with my 45/70 using 405 grain Wide-Long Nose bullets (.360" Meplat) at about 1500 FPS....Both deer I shots were hit through the shoulders at less than 50 yards....

Please do not take this the wrong way and I'll stipulate that you hit your deer through the shoulders - but I have to believe that the majority of game lost when an adequate firearm was used is due to poor hits.  How many times have you read of someone who shot a deer "right through the shoulders" with a .30-06, etc.  and the aminal took off like it wasn't hit?  There is an obvioius reason for that kind of observation....

A spot of blood on the ground doesn't prove where the animal was hit, just that it bled a bit.  We all want to believe that we hit the animal correctly, but that is certainly not always the case.  With no body there is just no way to know where the bullet hit....   

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[DGrig]

This cast bullet discussion is enlightening.  One thing that I have noticed on the various cast bullet web sites is that there are different diameters available for 44 cal guns.  Different guns of the same cal take different diameter bullets?  How do I know what my SRH will take?  Do I have to measure it?  And there are seemingly MANY different shapes that I assume are used for different purposes.  I take it that the same Lee dies I use now for JHPs will work for hard cast bullets. 

[Larry Gibson]

I've listed my thoughts here before; my thoughts are based on observation of quite a few deer shot with revolvers of 4 to 6 inch barrels with a myrid of bullets of various calibers.  I will say again that the lighter fast stepping HP/SP proved to be the better killers.  By better I simply mean quicker.  With .357 revolvers of 4 to 6 inch barrels I always suggest the 125 HP/SPs pushed to factory velocities of 1400- 1500 fps. If you push them faster (I push the 125 XTP/FP to 1690 fps in my 6" Ruger SS) with hotter reloads or in longer barrels then you can run into so called "bullet failure".  In the .41 Magnum with 4 to 6 " barrel the lighter 170 HPs, if we keep the velocity once again in the 1400 fps range do nicely on deer. With longer barrels step up to the 210 gr XTP and run them at 1400+ fps also.  With the .44 Magnum (subject of this thread) with 4 to 6 inch barrels the 200/210 gr HP/SPs again kill very well in the 1400 fps range.  Some current factory 180s do well also such as PMCs 180 SP which runs 1490 fps out of my 4 inch Anaconda. I kills deer very well with excellent penetration and expansion.  I have not been fond of the Sierra 180 HCs performance when pushed above 1400 fps but I have to admit it killed every deer shot with it.  With Barrels over 6 inches the 240 XTP is really hard to beat when pushed at 1400+ fps.  So there's my thoughts on that.

Let me also state that cast bullets also kill deer.  I've not found the "heavies" in any caliber to be any more effective than standard weights give the same SWC profile.  Any 250+ gr .44 bullet with a wide flat meplat is a most efficient killer.  I prefer the 250 gr .44 SWC bullets pushed at 1400+ fps when hunting with cast though I've found a 215 gr SWCGC at almost 1500 fps does just as well. 

Either type (cast or jacketed HP/SP) of bullet will do quite nicely if the hunter puts it into the heart/lung of a deer.  No bullet is 100% effective all of the time even when perfectly placed; we should remember that.  This is actually a useless discussion as such.  If you want to use cast then pick a good SWC with a wide meplat that is accurate at a reasonable velocity in your revolver and go hunting.  If you prefer a HP/SP then pick one that is accurate at the appropriate velocity for your revolver and go hunting.  So which is better, the Ford or the Chevy? Doesn't matter, both get you there.

Larry Gibson

[Lone Star]

One thing that I have noticed on the various cast bullet web sites is that there are different diameters available for 44 cal guns.  Different guns of the same cal take different diameter bullets?  How do I know what my SRH will take?  Do I have to measure it? 

Because revolves are made to tolerences, some will work better with different diameter bullets - for various reasons associated with accuracy and leading.  Cast bullets should fit the cylinder throats for best performance.  The throats are often larger than jacketed bullet diameter, in some .44 Mag revolvers I've measured they run up to .433"; in one S&W M25 I owned the throats were .459" with a .451" barrel!  While most times standard .430" cast .44 bullets will work well, if accuracy or leading become problems, measure your cylinder throats and use cast bullets of that diameter.  Use a lead slug to measure the throats.

PS - in the odd chance that the cylinder throats are smaller than the barrel (it does happen), have the throats reamed out.  Nothing else you do will give decent cast bullet performance in them.

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[teddy12b]

If I reload hard cast bullets I think I'll just get some with the gas check so I don't have to worry about leading.  I looked on midway and saw that Cast Performance and Oregon Trail Trueshot both have hard cast rounds with gas checks.  Is there much difference between these two brands?  Both have good reviews behind them.

[MS Hitman]

The bulk of the bullets I cast are plain base.  This is from .38 Special up to and including .500 Linebaugh.  Matching the proper alloys and lubes to the required velocity greatly reduces the chances of leading.  By reducing the vleocities used on 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips in my 309, I usually get length-wise penetration on whitetails on tranverse shots and blow lungs all over the country on broad-side shots.

I only have a little over 200 whitetail (over half with handguns) under my belt as well as nearly two dozen head of African game with a handgun.  I have never seen a fast/light bullet for game perform as effectively on game as they do on varmints.  My experience agrees with what Elmer Keith was stating in the 1920's and John Taylor in the 1940's. 

Penetration testing at the several Linebaugh seminars I have attended also prove out the fact that slow, heavy bullets will outpenetrate fast & light.  I cast the 255 Lyman "Keith" bullet for my .45 Colts.  This bullet ahead of 9 grains of WW231 leaves the muzzle at about 900 fps and gives  two feet of penetration in wet newsprint.  Most any commercial cast bullet you can buy will stand up to these velocities without significantly leading the barrel.  Additionally, this is definitely enough horsepower to kill a whitetail.

So I leave the "fast & light" for my backpacking and varmint shooting and stick with the slow & heavy for game killing. 

[insanelupus]

This has been an interesting discussion/topic.  I might as well ask a few questions too.  First, those that shoot cast bullets, what are you using for clean up?  I absolutley hate cleaning lead from a barrel, finding Kroil floats it pretty good, and reading that Bronze Wool is pretty good stuff for clean up.  Just curious on this.

As to cast bullets versus jacketed.  I'm not sure that you can say that cast will be better than jacketed in all instances.  Namely that the construcion of both (as has been discussed at least with lead) varies significantly.  In addition, while the wider meplat does have the potential to do more damage (depending on bullet designs) the difference between some cast and jacketed meplats are so small, as to be in the real world, mostly a wash.

I see a lot of folks recommending cast bullets.  But there are some good jacketed bullets out there too.  In addition, I've seen folks recommend using cast bullets, and in the next line discourage the use of jacketed "because they won't open up, just punch right through."  For larger caliber handgun rounds I thought that was the point of using cast.  Of course, it certainly depends on what you are shooting.

For instance, when I got my .44 Magnum Ruger Vaquero Bisley, I settled on the 300 grain Speer bullet, over a load of IMR 4227 that chronos at 1050 fps.  This is not a smoking round by any means, but I have found it penetrates well in my "stump" tests, I shoot it very well and accurately and have no qualms wallking about planning on shooting a bear or elk with this load at a max distance of 50  yards.  I have taken a whitetail with it, and found that it performed much like a cast, boring right through the deer.  As a matter of fact, when I hunt the midwest, I actually switched to a 300 grain XTP because of this.  Where I hunt whitetails, I decided some expansion would not be a bad thing.  This particular bullet is very hard, and I fully expect complete penetration of elk out to my limit of 50 yards broadside.  In that 300 Speer, I feel I have the best of both worlds, little problems with leading and the convenience of a jacketed bullet, the hardness (or nearly that of) a cast. 

As to hunting with handguns and taking other than broadside or slight quartering shots, it's users choice.  To me the argument of "if you wound one you want to shoot stem to stern" doesn't hold water.  Wait for the shot presentation you want, if you don't get it, that's why it's called hunting, not critter killing.  However, if you do wound one, as happens on occasion, fill 'em full of lead and put them down, if you see hide, shoot it.  You've already miffed the shot if that happens and you owe it to the animal to end the suffering as soon as possible. I'm not sure that requires you to always shoot a bullet that will pass stem to stern unscathed, but that's just my opinion. 

[MS Hitman]

Pro Shot has a very effective barrel cleaner that removes leading quite nicely.

As to bullet choice, I use both cast and jacketed with equal success.  One simply must choose the proper style of bullet for the game.  This may be a SWC, LBT style, or one of the many jacketed bullets designed for hunting.  I have had good performance in the .44 mags from Remington, Hornady, and several different cast SWCs.  Mostly these days, I use the Keith style and LBT bullets in everything from .32 S&W Longs to the .500 Linebaugh.  I have used the Speer bullet you speak of with good success.

As to waiting for the perfect shot presentation, unless you do not tire of going home empty-handed; you are going to have to resolve yourself that the perfect shot presentation seldom occurs.  I meat hunt with my handguns and this sometime means taking shots that are not the "perfect" shot presentation.  I do not have a problem taking the shot because I use bullets that will do the job.  This holds much water with me; results speak for themselves.  A Texas heart shot is one of, if not, the most devastating shot one can use on a whitetail.  That is, if you have a cartridge and bullet capable of doing the job. 

[DGrig]

Forgive my ignorance.  What is a "Texas heart shot"?

[insanelupus]

As to waiting for the perfect shot presentation, unless you do not tire of going home empty-handed; you are going to have to resolve yourself that the perfect shot presentation seldom occurs.

I do go home empty handed on occasions and it is not anything I am ashamed of nor do I tire of.  As I am hunting for sport, not survival or subsitance, I can afford to do so and do not feel any less of a hunter for it.  If an animal is wounded, then all bets are off, damn the shot presentation and put the animal on the ground as quickly as possible.  It is rare, that as long as I take my time and be patient, that I cannot have a broadside or at least a slight quartering shot.  Each hunter must come to the terms of his or her own ethics.  Mine do not allow me to take the "Texas Heart Shot" on an unwounded animal.  If that animal is running away from me, I screwed up in some regard and hopefully learn from the lesson.  This enables me to be a better hunter next time.  If that means I go home empty handed, so be it.  The success of a man and the prowess of a hunter are not judged by trophies upon a wall.

I have no problem with those that use a cast bullet over a jacketed or vice versay.  I'm just trying to figure out where the truth actually lies in the argument, as I suspicion that now days, with quality jacketed bullets, the difference between the two is shrinking.  Especially if the caliber and velocity are suited to the animal and yardage.

[Gregory]

Each hunter must come to the terms of his or her own ethics.  Mine do not allow me to take the "Texas Heart Shot" on an unwounded animal.  If that animal is running away from me, I screwed up in some regard and hopefully learn from the lesson.  This enables me to be a better huner next time.  If that means I go home empty handed, so be it.  The success of a man and the prowess of a hunter are not judged by trophies upon a wall.

I have no problem with those that use a cast bullet over a jacketed or vice versay. 

+1

[MS Hitman]

A Texas Heart Shot is placing the bullet as close to the anus of an animal in order to break the spine and render the animal immobile.  Such a shot is not necessarily taken at a running animal as eluded to in an earlier post. 

[sawfish]

Here is my two cents worth.  I always thought the purpose of a magnum cartridge was to allow you to use a heavier bullet without the loss in velocity that would accompany heavier bullet loadings in non-magnum cartridges.  Right, or wrong, since that has worked for me for over fifty years, I will just keep plodding along.  Probably the result of reading too much Elmer Keith in my "formative" years.

[MS Hitman]

There seems to be a severe shortage of reading Mr. Keith's work and application of what he said.

[Hook686]

One of the sharpest recoil producing rounds I've fired in my .44 magnum, 6-1/2" 629 Ported Classic, has been the PMC 180 grain JSP. At 1550 fps, is rocks me.

I know that the 180 grain LFNCG, Buffalo Bore, .357 magnum round, 1400 fps, takes deer. Thus I see no reason the 180 grain .44 magnum would not be able to also. It might be necessary to develop a 180 grain cast bullet load, at about 1400 fps. I see no reason such a load would not down light, to medium, sized game, just as the .357 magnum round does.