Author Topic: ML Rifle Accuracy  (Read 2545 times)

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Offline sixgunSal

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ML Rifle Accuracy
« on: January 27, 2007, 05:51:47 AM »
Hi All

I'm considering getting involved in ML and was wondering how accurate these are with the standard 1:60 twist with round balls.  I understand this is a loaded (no pun intendedJ question, so I'm just looking for ballpark figures.  I was reading the Austin & Halleck website and they were suggestiong that 200 yards is not out of the question.  Is this realistic?  What size groupings can be expected at 200 yards and in?  Also, what is the difference in percussion and flinklock rifles?  Is there a reason to buy one over the other?  thanks in advance for any help

sgS

Offline Idaho Ron

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Re: ML Rifle Accuracy
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2007, 07:12:47 AM »
I can't answer as to accuracy for a round ball at 200 yards, but my GM Renegade hybred is very accurate out to 200 yards. In fact I can hit 2 liter pop bottle easy at 200 and milk jugs at 250 are in trouble.  The bullet I use is a 410 gr Hornady Great plains bullet.  Ron

Offline Will Bison

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Re: ML Rifle Accuracy
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2007, 07:47:59 AM »
Kind of subjective as to accuracy but I expect my ML rifles to shoot as well as my centerfire guns. Several of my ML guns will outshoot certain CF guns and vice versa. Sights and bedding along with proper twist are just as important with a ML gun as with the CF gun.

My custom .54 flint plains rifle will hold under 2 MOA all day shooting from the bench. Five shot groups at 100m of less than MOA are not uncommon (wish I could do it all the time).  I shoot it at ranges up to 500 yards just for fun. All this with round ball. I don't hunt anymore so power is not a factor for me nor is drop at the longer ranges, I shoot for group.

Flint or cap??? The only cap lock I shoot is my 1863 Sharps sporting in .450 caliber (it has never had a misfire). I shoot it at 1,000m on a regular basis.

I don't remember the last time I had a misfire with any of my flint guns, it would have to be years. Did I mention I like flint guns. An experienced shooter some 40 odd years ago told me "Buy a 30 dollar rifle and a 300 dollar lock", that advice has never failed me.

Some years ago when I was instructing advanced military shooters (using the M16A1), I put up the challenge, 10 shots at 400m, I'll shoot my fint gun, all shots to be fired offhand. I won against 40 some shooters ( I might add they were done shooting loooong before I was).

Bill

Offline sharps4590

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Re: ML Rifle Accuracy
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2007, 01:12:22 PM »
For me, it depends on whether you're hunting or shooting.  For hunting it's best to stay inside the 125 yard mark and I generally stay inside 75 yards.  Mostly because where I hunt shots any longer than that are rare.  Also.....I just don't see as well as I used to, especially in the lower light conditions of the woods.

Obviously the sighting equipment is going to make a difference.  Finer sights make for finer shooting.  Again, for me, traditional sights aren't conducive to accurate long range shooting.  Going to a tang or some other style of peep sight changes things dramatically.

If one is simply shooting for accuracy and group then the sky is the limit.  Shoot as far as you safely are able to.  It's great fun and very educational.  The venerable patched round ball will shoot quite well to a considerable distance, as has been pointed out, but it also very susceptible to wind.  Needless to say it's trajectory isn't what one could call "flat".

I particularly like what Will Bison said about the $30.00 rifle and the $300.00 lock!

Vic
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Offline sixgunSal

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Re: ML Rifle Accuracy
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2007, 03:30:24 PM »
Thanks for all the replys.  You have more then answered my accuracy question.  I dont understand that bit of advice about the $30 gun and a $300 lock.  Is the "lock" part of the gun?  Sorry for the dumb question.  I am guessing that a flintlock shoots by sparking a fuse(?) that ignites the powder.  A cap is...well thats a question I can't answer yet  oh, and another dumb question - what is a "GM Renegade hybred "  As I mentioned earlier, I am new to this and it has caught my interest.  Seems like a great way to shoot.

Offline Idaho Ron

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Re: ML Rifle Accuracy
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2007, 06:07:12 PM »
My rifle started out as a Thompson Center Renegade. I put a Green Mountain Stainless steel long range hunter barrel on it. It also has a set of Lyman peep sights and globe front sight. It is kind of a franken gun (made up from spare parts)   here is a picture of it.  Ron

Offline offhand35

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Re: ML Rifle Accuracy
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2007, 08:38:58 AM »
SixgunSal, you may find a copy of Sam Fadala's BLACKPOWDER HANDBOOK very helpful. This book has a wealth of basic and advanced information on just about every aspect of muzzle loader shooting. I think the current version is available from Krause Publications. Sometimes you can even find a used copy of an earlier version on e-bay.....I've been shooting ML for about 10 years, and I STILL go back to Sam's books.
Squirrel.......the OTHER dark meat.....!

Offline Slamfire

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Re: ML Rifle Accuracy
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2007, 10:11:24 PM »
10 shots, not sure of the range, but it was "Not good enough".

Bold talk from a one eyed fat man.

Offline captchee

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Re: ML Rifle Accuracy
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2007, 03:06:19 AM »
Thanks for all the replys.  You have more then answered my accuracy question.  I dont understand that bit of advice about the $30 gun and a $300 lock.  Is the "lock" part of the gun?  Sorry for the dumb question.  I am guessing that a flintlock shoots by sparking a fuse(?) that ignites the powder.  A cap is...well thats a question I can't answer yet  oh, and another dumb question - what is a "GM Renegade hybred "  As I mentioned earlier, I am new to this and it has caught my interest.  Seems like a great way to shoot.

no a flint lock has no fuse. the flint ignites powder that’s held in a pan . This sets off the main charge .
 Not sure I agree with the 30 dollar comment but . However I do  understand the reasoning when talking flint locks .
 A good lock even on a cheep gun can be the difference between  loving a flintlock and hating one .

 Accuracy with a round ball can be had well past 250 yards IF you find the load and learn the weapon . That takes time .
 However like someone else said above . If your just shooting paper with a round ball   those ranges are great .
However when hunting  with a round ball .IMO you should keep your shots under 100 . The closer the better . That has nothing to do with accuracy  but the characteristics of the round ball itself when applied to hunting

Offline horseman308

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Re: ML Rifle Accuracy
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2007, 10:59:18 AM »
Sal,
The basic answer to your lock question is: the lock is the part of the gun with the "hammer." It is removeable for cleaning or replacement on every muzzleloader I've ever seen simply by removing a screw or two. The reason for the $30 gun, $300 lock comment is that the lock is the part that makes ignition. There are lots of people out there who think that traditional muzzleloaders (flintlocks and percussion) are unreliable. 90 to 99% of the time, this is because they have either a crappy lock that is poorly designed, they have not cared for their lock properly, or both (usually both...if you spend a lot on a lock, you will want to take care of it).

A flintlock has a piece of flint held in a small vice on the hammer (called a cock). When you pull the trigger, it falls and strikes a piece of steel, makes sparks that fall into a small pan of powder. This in turn ignites, passes through a small hole in the side of the barrel and ignites the main charge in the barrel. A cap lock is similar. Instead of flint, steel, and loose powder, it uses a percussion cap similar to a primer cap in a centerfire rifle. The cap sits on top of a nipple with a hole in it. When the hammer (this strikes the cap, it explodes and sends it's flame through the hole and into the barrel where it ignites the main charge.

Each type of lock has it's advantages and disadvantages. The flintlock has the advantage that the path between the primer and main charge is MUCH easier to clean! Burnt black powder makes a gooey residue that can clog the hole. If the hole gets clogged, the fire won't reach the main charge. Because the hole on the flintlock is short and straight, it's easy to clean with just a small pick like a toothpick. A the hole in a caplock has a dog-legged right angle so it's a lot harder to clean it if it gets clogged in the field or on the firing line. The main disadvantage of a flintlock is that loose powder gets wet easier and won't fire. A cap won't get wet nearly as easy.

Well made locks run about $125 and there are companies that make really great replacement locks for the mediocre locks that come on many mass produced rifles. As was noted earlier, the patched round ball is quite capable of sub MOA accuracy. Like modern rifles, it is simply a matter of a decent barrel and finding the right load. However, they do not maintain their knock-down power at ranges much over 100-125 yards. I would not take a shot at a deer any farther than about 100 yards. Also, the caliber you choose will dictate that somewhat. Larger calibers are less susceptible to wind-drift and can be fired at longer ranges with better accuracy. However, smaller calibers like .32 up to .40 can be so accurate at shorter ranges (40 yards) it's scary. Squirrel hunting with muzzleloader is some of the best fun you can have. Like was recommended, check out Fadala's book. Great resource and ask any other questions you think of.

You only take one shot at a time, so don't waste it :cb2:

Offline Slamfire

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Re: ML Rifle Accuracy
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2007, 09:36:25 PM »
Ah but not all percussion guns are sidelocks. Underhammers, and side slappers (mule ears) have a nipple that is screwed directly into the barrel.  ;)
Bold talk from a one eyed fat man.

Offline horseman308

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Re: ML Rifle Accuracy
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2007, 02:58:36 AM »
Yes, but um..................
They're....um...............
ugly  ;)
You only take one shot at a time, so don't waste it :cb2:

Offline captchee

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Re: ML Rifle Accuracy
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2007, 03:04:52 AM »
Ah but not all percussion guns are sidelocks. Underhammers, and side slappers (mule ears) have a nipple that is screwed directly into the barrel.  ;)
nor are all flintlocks, side locks. Nock , pault , perdy , hail , Hall all made flintlocks that were not side lock in design
 . some  of mantons  percussion sidelock SXS also have nipples that thread  into the barrel many other makers as well .

Offline sharps4590

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Re: ML Rifle Accuracy
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2007, 03:54:36 PM »
Sal, as you can tell by reading the above posts, muzzleloading rifles take many different forms and variations.  Pistols and revolvers are much the same.  I caution you to be careful about getting involved in this shooting sport.  It's addictive qualities are greater than illegal drugs.  However, the benefits are immeasurable.  One can spend a life time studying and shooting muzzleloaders and rarely cover the same ground twice.  In my opinion it is a wonderful hobby that knows neither age nor gender and one that can be participated in for a life time.  My suggestion.........JUMP IN WITH BOTH FEET AND ENJOY THE RIDE!!!!!!!!

Vic
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Offline wsmitty01

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Re: ML Rifle Accuracy
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2007, 10:49:38 AM »
I have a Sante Fe Hawken that I purchased over 30 years ago.  It is a true .53 caliber and shoots a .520 ball.  I have cleaved the ball and broken 2 plates at the same time on an axhead at 20 yards, put the flame out on a candle without touching the candle at 50 yards, hit 8" iron skillet at at 400 yards, all this with a 1 in 66" twist 32" barrel and primitive buckhorn sights. A slow twist rounball is capable of amazing accuracy.  The loads need to stay within "normal" limits 80-110 grains and you need to practice, practice, practice, oh and by the way, did I mention practice? I have killed countless deer, a couple of elk and a bear with this gun.  It has toppled running coyotes, hit jackrabbits at over 100 yards and countless prairie dogs at some really ridiculous distances.  The muzzleloader is capable of the shot, but hitting those targets is up to the skill of the shooter NOT the gun.  I propably have close to 10,000 balls through that gun and it's starting to lose its accuracy now, still plenty good for hunting, but not for any competitive rendezvous matches. Shoot a lot and develop the skills it takes to be an exceptional shooter with a muzzleloader. Shoot the PB substitutes if you have to, (a whole lot less cleaning and more shooting).

Offline Will Bison

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Re: ML Rifle Accuracy
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2007, 01:02:19 PM »
wsmitty01 probably sums it up best. The patched round ball is capable of superb accuracy, less than MOA with open sights (at 61 years I can't do it but the rifle can). I have also cut the ball on an axe head and put the two pieces into two playing cards at 20 yards. ( when I was in my 20's I could do this on a regular basis)

The candle shoot, one of my favourites, the candle is lit in a cardboard box. You must load your gun in total darkness. This is a "by feel only" event. The flame must be snuffed out without hitting the candle or it's supporting element (normally sand). We shoot this at about 20 yards.

Bill

Offline sixgunSal

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Re: ML Rifle Accuracy
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2007, 09:26:06 AM »
Again, I want to thank you all for all the good information.  I have found this book online (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0873491017/ref=dp_olp_2/102-2579566-5250528) and am wondering if this is the book you have referred to?  Reason I ask is cause it say "(Rev ed)" in the tittle and I wasn't quite sure what this meant.  Is the flintlock more...authentic? (the word I'm thinking of but not sure its the right one)  I guess I mean more back to basics.  Who makes some of these "decent barrels" that I saw mentioned in some of the above posts?  Are flintlocks more prone to misfires due to spark problems?  And I understand "percussion" is just another word for ML?  (I know, more dumb questions)  But I also think that half the fun of a new sport is in all the research and reading you get to do. (Principles vs. application)

What are some decent ML kits that I might research?  Are there any particular brands or features to avoid?  Or features to make sure I get?  I would probably be using this to punch paper at this time with maybe getting back into hunting with this at a later date (not sure).  I currently punch paper with airguns and much enjoy shooting for group size.  I used to fish, gun, and bow hunt when I lived upnorth and at that time loaded all my own brass.  But since moving to the south, I have got away from it, substituting golf for hunting to keep my love for the outdoors.  But the airgun target shooting and tinkering now has my full attention.  I almost see ML'ing as a logical progression due to its "less then modern" style of shooting - no offense meant.  Again, thanks for all the help.

sgS

Offline wsmitty01

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Re: ML Rifle Accuracy
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2007, 03:34:03 PM »
    For patched roundballs, at least 1 in 60" better if 66",,,30" barrel or better, double-set trigger, thin blade front siight,,,good buckhorns on the rear.  Some barrels shoot FFFg  better than FFg.  I find I use real BP for match shooting., Hornady swaged balls with Oxyoke pre-lubed patches.  This has been my most accurate formula. Start with 75 grains (54 caliber) and work with your most accurate loads, when ranges increase, my charge increases up to a max of 120 grains.  You'll propably discover that you're best accuracy is between 70-90 grains.  Recover your patches and look for an even burn with no blow throughs.   Attend a rendezvous match and watch, learn and ask questions.  I have shot competitively for most of my adult life, Camp Perry, IPSC, Silouette pistol, Silouett rifle, BUT those BP matches were always my favorite!!!

Offline offhand35

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Re: ML Rifle Accuracy
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2007, 02:20:07 PM »
Yes, that is the book that I mentioned. There are different editions.....I have the 1st from the early 80's or so....It really does not make a difference, except in the discussion of specific models and the new black powder [BP] substitutes that were not around, then.   The basics have not changed in quite some time...........
Squirrel.......the OTHER dark meat.....!

Offline flintlock

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Re: ML Rifle Accuracy
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2007, 02:41:33 PM »
Sixgun...The flintlock ignition preceeded the percussion system...The flintlock dates from 1600 until 1850 or so...The percussion was invented about 1807, but it took a few years to "catch on"...And by the end of the Civil War, cartridges were coming into play...I prefer a flintlock, bought my first in 1977, had no problems learning how to use, but, it was on a custom made rifle...That's the difference...Many people don't realize this but Daniel Boone used a flintlock longrifle and he died in his sleep, almost 85 years old in 1820, Lewis and Clark carried the same type rifle to the Pacific and back in 1803-1805, at the Battle of New Orleans, Andrew Jackson's Tennessee and Kentucky volunteers carried flintlock rifles, David Crockett carried a flintlock rifle to Texas with him in 1836, many Southern boys carried their's or their daddy's flintlock rifle to the Civil War...That's why I like a flintlock...

How much are you planning on spending??? How mechanical are you??? Can you put together a gun that is 85-90% done???

If you buy a factory built gun, look at Lyman and Thompson Center...

If you can spend more...  www.flintlocks.com

Another good book to look into...Foxfire IV, has a good section on Flintlock rifles


Offline Black Jaque Janaviac

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Re: ML Rifle Accuracy
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2007, 05:42:49 AM »
Sixgun,

Welcome to muzzleloading! 

The fella's here gave you good descriptions on the operation of flintlock vs. caplock.  Caplock is the more modern of the two and represents the evolutionary step between flintlocks and modern centerfire guns.  The flintlock has the longest running history of any gun type ever put to use.  From 1600 to about early to mid 1800 was the flintlock era.  That includes the French - Indian War, the American Revolution, War of 1812.  The caplock was invented around 1820 give or take a decade.  It was put to use during the Civil War.  And shortly after that, the centerfire cartridge debuted with the U.S. Military adopting the .45-70 in 1873.

Here is a photo of a flintlock taken from Track-of-the-Wolf web pages.
Black Jaque Janaviac - Dat's who!

Hawken - the gun that made the west wild!

Offline Black Jaque Janaviac

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Re: ML Rifle Accuracy
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2007, 05:44:00 AM »
...And a pix of a caplock...
Black Jaque Janaviac - Dat's who!

Hawken - the gun that made the west wild!

Offline Black Jaque Janaviac

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Re: ML Rifle Accuracy
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2007, 06:01:25 AM »
... And a picture of a caplock rifle...

This particular caplock rifle is the Lyman Great Plains Rifle which I highly recommend.  It is perhaps one of the best values in the ML world.  Great gun at a reasonable price.  But to get the reasonable price try Midsouth Shooters Supply:

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=000156031112

Don't be afraid to get a roundball shooter.  Caplock is a good place to start, and if you're happy with it, a good place to end.  But a flintlock is great to advance towards.

The $30 gun with a $300 lock is not meant to be understood literally.  The point is when buying a flintlock do not skimp on the quality of the lock.  It is similar to the advice that modern centerfire shooters give about scopes, it is not uncommon to put a $500 scope on a $400 gun.  This advice does not necessarily apply to caplocks, because igniting a cap is so much more simple.  The only thing the caplock has to accomplish is to strike the cap with enough force to make it explode.

With a flintlock, there is an exquisite amount of craftsmanship that goes into making a flintlock reliable.  If the geometry is not correct, the lock will smash and dull the flints faster than necessary, the sparks will fly everywhere but on the priming powder.  If the metallurgy is not just so, the sparks will be cool, and not white-hot, if you get sparks at all.  If the springs are not strong enough the ignition will be slow.  If the touch hole is too low the ignition will be like a fuse - you'll get a "whoosh-bang" instead of a crisp "bang".  Needless to say, there's more that can go wrong with a flintlock, and I just gave you the gun-builder's list, I didn't mention the responsibility that falls on the shooter to keep the gun running.  But if you get a decent semi-custom gun from a reputable builder, he'll know his art well and that will alleviate the responsibility on your part greatly.

Ultimately, shooting a flintlock compared to a caplock is like driving manual transmission vs. automatic.  YOU'RE more involved in the process, and because of that,  you get more satisfaction.  However, if you don't master the art, it will be frustrating.

Black Jaque Janaviac - Dat's who!

Hawken - the gun that made the west wild!

Offline shotgun31

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Re: ML Rifle Accuracy
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2007, 08:36:30 AM »
WSMITTY01 has a rifle that sounds similar to mine.  Same relatively odd caliber, (53) I bought it from Track of the Wolf in an in-the-white kit and refinished it.  I'm informed it's "the Sante Fe Rifle, with a Maple Stock that Track of the Wolf commissioned".  I wasn't in a club or anything, but learned how to build it and shoot it by reading and trial and error. 

My point in writing is to avoid my errors and frustrating experinces--it'll be more fun.  I'd recommend a percussion, and join a club or hang around knowledgeable muzzle loader shooters as much as you can.  It'll be worthwhile.

My experience with ML's includes frustrations and heartaches--because I didn't involve myself in clubs at the begining. 

First I bought a Zouave replica (don't discount a military musket as a first ML); percussion.  The caps I could buy locally didn't go off the first time you pulled the trigger.  I didn't know another soul that had a ML in the area.  That was in 1970.

Then, I bought one of the first Thompson Center Hawkin Rifles, in 50 cal.  1X48 twist percussion, a compromise twist.  It came with a .490 mold, and I bought 1000 remington caps.  Worked great.  Fired everytime, and accurate.  Boy, was I hooked.  Wanted to use it deer hunting.  However, I determined that if I loaded much past 70 grains of BP the groups started getting bigger.  I wanted more power, or what I thought was power, and went to the 370 gr maxiball.  90 grain loads--I broke the stock.   

I bought the Uberti kit from Track of the Wolf, and spent a winter putting it together.  It's a beautiful rifle, still my pride and joy.  But I couldn't make the blasted thing go off!  I did everything I could think of, finally took to completely degreasing the barrel, false breach and nipple with new tet--degreasing fluid---then dribbiling 4FG  under the nipple to make it go off.  I actually shot a couple of deer with that combination although the members of my hunting group hated to see me take that ML out--we shared the deer and I wasn't pulling my weight.  Fully 1/2 the time when I fired it it would go "POP" on a dead load.

Finally drove up to Track of the Wolf, and they talked me into some expensive caps, RWS, made in Germany.  Ya right, there's a difference in caps;  the remingtons sounded powerful to me, and they worked on the Thompson Center rifles.  However, the simple expedient of having an experienced ML shooter trouble shoot the situation solved the problem.  Now I just take the gun out of the safe, load it and go hunting.  Haven't had a mis-fire since I went to the RWS cap and I leave the remingtons alone.

My point in all this is "join a group" even if you have to drive a ways.  It will cut down on the frustrations, and even though they are still fun to work out, it takes a lot of time. 

I'f I was going to get a traditional ML, I'd certainly look at the Lyman Great Plains or the Hunter.  Watch out, though--they are different twists.  I wouldn't hesitate to use the round ball but the 1/60-66 twist barrel will get more performance out of a round ball. 

I've shot my last 5 deer and about 30 woodchucks with my .53, using a .525 ball 110 grains of FFG and the RWS cap.  It shoots flat as a bow string to 100 yds, and gets full penetration on a deer--ball goes all the way through.  The last doe jumped once and lay there at about 75 yards. 

You will have a ball with a muzzle loader when you get all the details worked out.  A flintlock COULD be fun, if you had access to people that could inform you how to get past the bugs.  For a first rifle, the flintlock would probably have been even more complicated for me.


 
 

 

       

Offline captchee

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Re: ML Rifle Accuracy
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2007, 02:18:05 PM »
   flintlock makes some good statements . the only thing i could add is that there was no know caplock  at the battle of the Alamo. According to the Alamo historical society .

 If your thinking about a flintlock  I would recommend you don’t skimp . Buy the pest you can afford .
 I would also recommend you find someone to mentor you .. Its not that flintlocks are difficult , slower in ignition  or less consistent then a cap lock .

 However they are different and  there is a learning curve . Once over that curve  you will love a flintlock .
Myself I set caplocks aside   some 15 years back . I have never regretted that move in any way .
With guidance  and a quality tuned lock  im sure you will find  that a good flintlock is many times  even more consistent, reliable  and just as fast as  and caplock side lock or other that’s on the market today  

Offline Will Bison

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Re: ML Rifle Accuracy
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2007, 07:44:53 PM »
Captchee has certainly summed up my thoughts on the flint gun.

The learning curve was a huge hurdle but I wanted to shoot flint. I watched guys shoot them and they always went BANG. From that I knew they had some "secret". The secret is in the lock, the lock is the heart of the rifle. The finest Getz barrel and finest maple stock won't make the gun shoot well until you install a good lock.

This brings me back to "a 30$ rifle and a 300$ lock". An exageration, yes, but it makes the point, don't skimp on the lock. A good lock at todays market price will run 175$ and up before tune up and installation. Add in the cost of a good trigger mechanism and you are in 300$ or more.

Bill

Offline sharps4590

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Re: ML Rifle Accuracy
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2007, 12:18:28 AM »
wellll......the cartridge rifle did not debut with adoption of the 1873 Trapdoor Springfield.  Metallic cartridge firing firearms actually debuted in the 1850's when Smith and Wesson introduced what is today known as the 22 Short in a break action revolver.  I believe there were other experimental and prototype cartridge firing guns, such as the Volcanic, before that but as far as I know the S&W was the first on the market.  My memory may fail me as to the exact chronology on this.

The first cartridge firing rifle officially adopted by the US military was, I believe, the 56-56 Spencer, a rim fire, 7 shot repeater.  The Henry, firing the rim fire 44 Flat was also used during the Civil War but I don't believe it was ever officially adopted.  After the Civil War a lot of Springfield rifled muskets were converted to the Allin system, a predecessor to the trapdoor, and were chambered in 50-70 Govt.  This rifle and cartridge were officially adopted by the US military and pre-date the '73 Springfield in 45-70.

Lest we forget the European theater, flintlocks were in constant use over there, in wars, for nearly the entire existance of flintlocks military life.  Some 250 years. 

As others have said, once their use is learned, and it isn't difficult, they are as reliable as cap locks.

Vic
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Re: ML Rifle Accuracy
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2007, 03:50:19 AM »
 
 ill slip off track here just a tad and with gray beard allowance make this comment .
Cartridge evolution goes  way back   .
 Some militaries used a cartridge  version of a flintlock  revolving gun  as early as Mohammad.
 With the advent of early percussion systems they really took off  . In fact  our shotgun shells of today are from a design that  was established and used  if I recall around 1820 , 1830  there abouts .
 The bass casing predates that  by a very long time  as it goes back to  some flintlock systems .
 The brass casing with primer  is  a Paul design of 1810 I believe .

 Now the big jump was indeed  in the later 19th century . What caused that jump in acceptance ?
Technology .  Making casings out of drawn brass  over turned brass , sped up production and reduced cost considerably .
 Now why is this important  for a muzzleloading stand point . Simple  it’s the advent of the percussion cap
 Used in muzzleloading .
 Here are some early cartridge designs for you all to  look over  as well as a drawing of an early flintlock revolving gun