Dogs on the trail....?

[TM7]

Wondering what you men think about dogs on the trail. I always hiked and camped with my dog and never had a problem because he was pretty well behaved and I was quick to hook him up if necessary. When we came to a summit I always hookked him up so he wouldn't bother folks. Other dog owners aren't quite so considerate. Last week my wife and I hiked Mooselauke, NH. We often hike apart. Several other hikers passed and had labs, goldens, shepards, big white dogs. etc. They were unleashed on the trail and didn't bother me. But my wife has a different story.....one of the bigger dogs jumped on her and knocked her down., and got her muddied up a bit. Not a vicious dog just too playful. Man when she caught up with me she was fuming and I don't blame her.
Any advice how she could control, repel, deter these dogs when I'm not around would be appreciated. Most owners are slower than molasses in Alaska to get their dogs under control.


................................TM7

[alpini]

Hi TM7, sorry for the late post.

I don't have any problems with behaved dogs on the trail. With riders though might be a different story. As a hiker, I use a walking stick or staff, not only as a walking aid but also as a tool to ward off animals and such.

As backpackers or hikers, the weight we carry on our backs would tend to make us wobbly anyway and we sure don't need to fall and get hurt. I too wish some people would be more considerate with their dogs on the trail and I don't see hurting their pet or getting hurt myself in the process. A leash is a good start for untrained pets. Not the pet's fault but the owners.

I think a good walking staff serves well for parry or blocking an over friendly or aggressive dog as well as keeping my balance.

[Graybeard]

I have a serious problem with folks who just cannot leave their mutts at home and have to impose them on others. Not all of us care for dogs. If legal my advice is to carry a handgun and use it if the dog makes contact or preferably before the contact is made. If I'm where I have a legal right to be a a dog attacks or appears to be attacking it dies on the spot no questions asked and no apologies given.

Baring the legality of handgun use try the pepper spray made for bears or a small size apray bottle of ammonia. Use liberally.

[olbiffer]

graybeard, I agree with the pepper spray or ammonia, but a handgun on a typically narrow trail with the possibility of other people in the vicinity...........?

[Graybeard]

but a handgun on a typically narrow trail with the possibility of other people in the vicinity...........?

Safer than letting go a round or three in the city. And you would do that would you not if attacked and having to defend yourself?

You would after all be shooting DOWN toward the ground at a dog and out in the woods no less. Yes you betcha I'd shoot.

[Savage .250]

I like the " some kind of spray" thing.  Plus ladies may feel better using it as opposed to shooting somebodies family pet. Ku-jo excluded.
  Better yet you might get a big old wolf looking thing that loves his mommy then let some rag tag mutt jump on your wife. Good bye
  enter mutt`s name here........................  Wife feels safe, Wolfy gets a treat and you get to bury the mutt.  problem solved, IMO.
  Happy Hiking.

 " The best part of the hunt is not the harvest but in the experience."

[bill m.]

HI.
I'm new to this forum and liking it so far.
I am a hiking fanatic and have a very definite position on dogs.
Of all of the dogs that I have encountered on the trail, I can count the acceptable experiences on one hand, and with all of the hands that belong to everyone that has ever posted here, could not count the amount of dog owners that I'da liked to send to the hospital.
It's simple: If your dog is not completely in your control, it should be left home. That means that, if you ever even have to call him back from someone, you've lost control.  
Untrained dogs will act like untrained dogs. When they see someone, they go to say Hi. I don't want to say Hi to anyone's dog. I've had maps damaged, food gotten into, tent tears. etc...
I hike with walking poles, bear spray, and a handgun. I will use them in that order unless the threat gives me a pass.
Bear spray puts them down. It's not a fog. It's a stream and it's an absolute thrill to see it work. Just remember to save some for the owner.
For anyone who might be set back by this post, just remember this:  
 
If you cannot keep your dog at your heal at all times, and if your dog will not immediately respond to your commands, it has to be on a leash.
 
 In Washington State, that's the law. I am willing to enforce this law because I am not going to give anyone the benefit when it is I that will finish my hike with damaged gear.
I own dogs. They don't go hiking with me because I respect other people's right to not have to deal with my dogs. I don't expect other people to enjoy  my dogs as I do.

[Graybeard]

Yup, my sentiments exactly.

[grendel]

I carry a gun when in the woods (except in National Disarmament Zones AKA Parks) and have on one occasion come close to shooting a free roaming dog that was acting in a threating manor, however the dog decided to exit the trail and go around my family and I.  If a dog comes at me in a hostile fashion it will be shot.  Likewise I will protect my wife and kids.    
 
But remember Ruby Ridge started started when a Jack Booted Thug shot a kids dog.  Someone shoots my dog on the trail they better expect return fire.  
 
Grendel

[bill m.]

grendel,
I'm sorry to hear that. But this is America and you have the freedom to do what you want; including murder. You may feel like it is murder for your dog to be killed. But the two are not equal in any sane/reasonable persons mind. And would a sane/reasonable person really be willing to give up the rest of his life over a dog? NO; not a sane/reasonable person.
 
You say that you would shoot a dog if it posed a threat. The definition of threat is pretty broad and includes many situations. So a biased dog owner is not a source for any information that is objective. So, because I don't believe that my dog was a threat when it was in your space, I should return fire because you saw a threat and acted? Remember that you are the only one who knows your dog; not me. Even tail-waging dogs can be very unpredictable.  
 
So, when you're out in the woods with your dog, remember that you HAVE TO HAVE 100 PERCENT CONTROL.  THAT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILIY. If you  can't maintain that, it's leash time. If you lose control. the results are your fault; not the man who chose to protect himself, family, or equipment.

If you still hold that belief, then, I am concerned about your ability to legally own a firearm because that mind-set should not be acceptable anywhere!

[Dustee Miller]

Well said, Bill.  As responsible gunowners we must restrict our self-defense shootings to those situations where a very real threat exists.  And remember this, no matter WHAT happens, when you get into court you can expect the dog owner to lie like hell and  his friends and family will back him to the  hilt.  You'd best have some witnesses of your own and they all should tell the same story.    Being right will not always protect you from retribution.

[fj40]

So every dog owner, their friends, and family are all liars?!?  Pretty broad accusation! My dog is very well behaved, and I never go hiking without her.  We have an over population of mountain lions here in South Dakota.  It is very comforting to have her along.  I hike with my 3 year old daughter quite often, and the dog always knows when something is up long before I do.  I can't always see what she does, but I have no doubt that something is there.  It is legal to hike with a dog here.  If you don't like it, go elsewhere.

[willysjeep134]

Thank You!

I've sort of been sitting on the sidelines watching to this conversation progress. The way I see it, the two sides of this argument are looking at it from totally diferent prespectives. The non dog owner probably only sees dogs as a dangerous unnecisairy nusiance. True, I would shoot a dog in a cujo scenario, but it would almost take that much provocation to get me to.

The other side of the argument is posed by dog owners. Strays and cujo not withstanding, unless your life or health is in danger I would not understand a bit if you shot my dog. Mistakes and accidents happen. If my dog were to get away from me I don't believe she would instigate an attack on anybody. On the same token, I keep her on a leash outside because I am worried about her and other people.  Plain and simple, people who get their jollys of shooting dogs when not in danger of their health or life don't get any respect from me.

(edited for civility)

[Siskiyou]

:shock:

[fj40]

I am not saying that dog owners don't have a responsibility to control their dogs.  I am only saying that I have as much right to have my dog on the trail (as long as she is under control) as anyone else does to not have my dog bother them.  My other point is that for anyone to claim that all dog owner are liars is ridiculous.  I think Dustee needs to step back and reassess his thinking.  To say that all "blank" do "blank" is asking for trouble.

[Graybeard]

This is getting out of hand and it's time to rein it in. No where did Dusty say all dog owners were liars. Me things some one needs reading lessons. What he said was if you get to court don't expect the person on the other side to be truthful. Big difference.

If it's legal and it is NOT in most places if the dog is not on lease then yes you have the right to have your dog with you. But you do not have the right to have your dog harrass or attack anyone. As soon as that happens you are legally responsible and the person attacked has the right to defend even to taking the dog's life.

If that offends you tough. If you can't see it take off the blinders. I don't think anyone has suggested blanket shooting of all dogs seen in the woods here. But if the dog attacks or the person perceives an attack then shooting is justified. If you don't like that keep your dog out of the woods or under control while there.

[Ahab]

Geez, I must live a sheltered life. Being an avid hiker I see many more nasty and obnoxious humans on the trail and in the field than I do dogs. Matter of fact the only dog problem I've ever had was with the neighbor's. ( I do live in a rural area) This spring I volunteered to be a caretaker at Kentucky Camp. A ghost town situated next to the Arizona Trail in the Coronado Nat'l Forest in southeastern Arizona. The trail is restricted to hikers, animal packers, horse riders, and mountain bikers, it is clearly marked no motor vehicles. A lot of the above people had dogs with them. There were no incidents nor confrontations. Then came the fat bubbas on their ATV's littering the trail with their Bud Lite cans. Enough said?

[willysjeep134]

First of all, let me appologise for flying off the handle like I did in my first post.

What we are debating here seems to be the specifics of the situation. for instance, I don't think anybody would say it isn't OK to kill a dog if it is attacking you. On the opposite extreme, I don't think anybody would think it OK to shoot somebodys bird dog if it happens to wander into your camp. Between these two extremes there are a million shades of grey. In the real world it will boil down to a personal decision. A person will have to weigh all of theinformation they have, which will doubtless be much more information that we can come up with any hypothetical situation, and decide an appropriate action. The problem I see is that we can always add another "but what if also"  a hpyothetical situation in our minds to sway the decision one way or another. That is why there can be so much dissent about a topic that we generally all agree on.

[targshooter]

Here in MN, unless it is a special "canine park", dogs are to be leashed. In the park system, this is enforced on the trail. For the parks, where a firearm is not legal, I have pepper spray, and will use it. In the wilds it is a firearm. I shot some moron's dog in upstate NY the 70s. It was a shephard, running down from a power line it ran up and bit the person I was with. We are talking a bee line here. It then seized her pant leg and started shaking. I shot it in the chest and it let go and ran off and died. The moron owner was walking the power and finally showed up and was at first indignant. However, after I got his name and address for the medical bills, he calmed down and admitted he was remiss in not having leashed the dog, which was running ahead of him by about 1/4 mile. I called the park service and filed a report. He paid the bills. Too bad the dog was nasty and the owner could not keep it under control, as he was legally bound to do in the park.

[bill m.]

My post was very direct. I'm sorry that my way sometimes smacks of harshness. I am passionate about this as I spend hundreds of miles a year on the trail. Distance hiking is my love.
I won't bore anyone with all of the stories I have of my experiences with dogs and their owners  over my years of hiking. I will share my personal findings, though:

I'll start by saying that I am a dog owner. I have owned dogs my entire life. I'm not, by any means, a "Dog Hater". I do believe in absolute control, though, when it comes to ownership.

When I do things in public with my dogs, I don't believe for a minute that anyone owes me any tollerance or patience. And, at the same time, I expect none. People respect me when the only contact they have with my dogs is by their choice; not by accident or incident. They appreciate the obedience and control they witness. Alot of times that is what makes people talk to you about your dog positively.

Time on trail has been an overall poor report on dog owners though. Most seem to think that:

 * I'm in the woods. It's ok for my dog to be loose.
 * Don't worry about my dog. He won't hurt you.
 * It's ok  to crap on the trail. Other animals do.
 * My dog has as much of a right to be loose as you do being out here.
 * If you don't like my dog, go somewhere else or get over it.

If there are no laws pertaining to dogs in your state, you probably have very few people on the trail systems or you're not really familiar with the laws. I have found in my state of Washington that most people don't really know the law. When they are made aware of it, they usually continue. The last time I checked, I pay taxes. Dogs don't. Therefore I have more rights than your dog.

It's too bad that it takes laws to instill in people the thing that should come naturally. That is "Common Courtesy". Even if there are no laws in your state, your dog making uninvited contact with people outside of your party shows little respect for other peoples rights. That makes quite a statement  about you! Letting the dog loose until he makes contact is also no good. No unwanted contact means what it means.

You see, if people really did respect other people, this whole conversation wouldn't be taking place.

As long as people continue to allow their dogs to run loose, people will protect themselves from contact. And, if it becomes a sad situation, the blame goes to who held responsibility over the animal? I will never give the benefit of the doubt regarding the visciousness of an approaching dog,  to the dog.  If you really love your dog, it will be in your complete control 100% of the time.

I've had my food eaten while at camp. I've had my maps trampled on and ruined. My tent was torn. I've been jumped up on and scratched by claws. I've seen dog crap on the trail.

Guys like me can be several days in-country. We pack only essentials. When a dog got my food bag, I hiked two days without food. You see, for me and many others, this is no little thing. It can turn a planned hike into a real struggle. Depending on conditions, it could even cause a survival situation.

I hope this helps make clear why I stand where I do.
I mean no disrespect. I just ask for your respect of our rights. Your rights will be respected when you follow the law and show courtesy to the other people on the trail.

[Ahab]

bill m. :
I'm really sorry to hear of your many bad experiences with dogs on the trail. As a trail management volunteer I spend days at a time and hike many miles per year. Any camping I do is off trail. Food and trash is hung high in a tree and if no trees are available it stays in my backpack until I'm ready to prepare it. I do this because bears, racoons, and sometimes coate mundis may attempt to steal it and I want to be able eat it myself.
 :roll:

[bill m.]

Ahab,
I too use the same techniques that you do. I usually don't hang my food though. I make a practice of never camping where I cook. That's easy for me because I move every day. My food is sealed so I don't have a food smell issue. Some people think I'm nuts for that. I think that they just don't realize the style of hiking. If I was to make camp in one place, and cook where I sleep for two or more days, I would consider hanging my food.
I love to hike. I plan my trips all through the winter while, at the same time, I'll be making and repairing equipment.
One of the dog encounters that I had was with a Black Lab whose owner was a summer ranger from the University of Washington. When the situation was under control, I took my journal out, got his name and ID (which he refused to give me at first), and reported him. I followed up to see what corrective action occured and was not  contacted.
You know, nothing will be done about trail harrassment by peoples dogs. I'm sure, though, that the ceiling will blow when someone causes death or injury to someones dog.
I would have to be physically attacked before I would EVER shoot a dog. I blame the owner and hold them responsible. But I will use my bear spray to protect my equipment and to assure that contact doesn't occur between  their dog and I. If an owner chooses to go on the offensive over it...well... they are the one that has decided their destiny; not I.
It would probably make a dog owner pretty emotional to see their dog after a bear spraying. But they had better have the ability to see the truth and know the chain of responsibility before they decide to get even. I don't even want to go there.
Let's just get along by doing the right thing.
Be very aware of your surroundings.
If you think that other people will be on the trail, leash your dog.
If you camp next to other people, leash your dog.
Don't ask them if they mind. Alot of people will say yes because they feel pressure.
If someone talks to you and shows interrest, work a deal.
If anyone is there who doesn't  make contact , don't.
And dispose of your dogs feces as you would your own; at least 100 feet off of the trail and buried.
It's that simple.

[corbanzo]

Dogs are animals, and as such, they should be controlled.  Owners know their dogs, and as such, should control them.  There are many people though, that do free their dogs well knowing that they have the ability to bother, or even bring harm to people.  Rightfully defending yourself against an animal (humans included) should gain in no way disrepect for an individual.  Many pet owners do a very good job at this control and respect; but there are still many who do not.  If they all did, there would be no dog attacks, no bites, nothing of the sort.  My mother was bit on the behind about ten years ago from a dog who wasn't on a leash, owner inside the house.  Would I have struck that dog down right there even after the fact?  You are correct, so the situation wouldn't get any worse.  Caring for your animal is responsibility, and not all people will be able to defend themselves, the defense of others is the sole responsibility (or should be) of the owner.  I have a bodyguard friend who told me a story of another friend of his (also a guard) who was attacked by a dog.  By experience, when the dog was running at him, he stuck his forearm out.  The dog jumped and bit, and when he did this, the man grabbed him by the back of the neck, pulled the dogs neck towards him, and pushed with the arm in the mouth, breaking his neck.  What was the man doing?  Walking to a BBQ, not in the dogs owners yard.  Saying that this in any way wrong is denying the human right of self defense.  Self defense doesn't have to be from physical harm, it can also be from botherment, determent and humiliation.  Things that we humans, as well as other animals, don't deserve.

[Hook686]

.... For example I am a disabled vet. If a large dog approaches, and even if just in a playful mood, I would draw my revolver, if I feared the situation might become lethal. I would fear this, if the dog tried to jump up on me, or snapped at me. I cannot afford to be knocked down and hitting my head.

[navyneil]

Dogs scare the poop out of people.  Lots of folks are pretty scared anyway of all sorts of things.  Unfortunately its just the world we live in, lots of scared folks.  I love dogs, but I wouldn't take them on public land.  I just know people too well, and people don't like anything thats not afraid of them! 

[victorcharlie]

The wife and I hiked the Beech bottom trail in N. Georgia's Cohutta wilderness area last tuesday.  As we approached Jack's river falls I spotted a camp site just off the trail......As I approached I was yelling hello....but with the river running I guess the 3 young men, (who appeared stoned out of their mind) didn't hear me........

As we got close to the camp 3 pit bulls charged at us.........

My .44 was in my backpack.......we stood still while the young men hollered for the dogs to come back......which they didn't......until they sniffed us over real good.......

Had we run it probably would have been different. 

It scared the crap out of us........local law prohibits dogs, and guns in the park.......there is a gray area in the law as coon hunting over dogs has a season, so at times dogs are permitted.......

Why, as a vaild handgun permit holder, can I carry on Market St. in Chattanooga, but not on a trail in the Cherokee?  Just doesn't make sense.......A handgun in a pack is about useless.....those dogs were on us so quick.....a bear, or bubba and the meth lab boys could be just about as quick.....

We need to lobby for open carry........as we should have the right to provide for our own security without being a criminal.....

Thank god it worked out, and I wouldn't have shot unless bit, but I would have found comfort in knowing I could control my situation.......

[pastorp]

Where I grew up in Florida, any dogs running loose in the woods (unless obvesouly hunting dogs with collars and id) were shot on sight. On our hunting leases in Georgia that was also the practice. In New Mexico the ranchers all asked hunters to shoot coyotes and stray dogs on sight. This is also the practice in rural Alaska.

You would not believe the change that comes over fido when he leaves his home pourch. Stray dogs and cats take a tremendious toll on wildlife if alowed to run loose. and even treathen human life in some cases. IF YOU LOVE YOUR DOG OR CAT KEEP HIM HOME.....If you won't take responsibality for your unwanted pet don't dump him off in front of someone elses house, do the right thing and put him down.

That is my opinion anyway.  Regards, Byron