garmin gpsmap 60csx

[jmm1245]

Just opened the box to my new 60csx. This thing is incredible! I read many post in this forum before I decided to buy this unit as well as handling a few at local stores. I was going to go for the color e trex  legend cx but I couldn't get one sat to show while in this store. This was expected but I turned on the 60csx and got 8 right away! That and the new chip set was enough for me.
I agree with most in this forum that the TOPO cd and auto nav software are needed to get the full benefit of this unit. I can't wait to go out and map my hunting routes.

jmm1245

[Siskiyou]

jmm1245:  How is it going with the new unit?  Are you new to the gps world or have had another unit in the past?

[victorcharlie]

I'm thinking it might be time to upgrade to the CSX, I know the 76csx floats, is a little bigger, but with external add in memory, are there any other advantages to the 76csx over the 60csx?

[Siskiyou]

The price is the determinding factor in my case.  The rebate made a real difference.  Another factor is that the 76C series case appears to be a little more bullet proof. 

I am aware of at least one Mountain Bike who crashed and broke an antenna off a 60CSx.  My three hundred pound friend tripped on a crack a sidewalk.  He fell hard bouncing his 76C on the concrete.  There was a very minor scuff mark on the top of the 76C.  His contact point bleed.

Both unit the 76CSx and the 60CSx have the same processor and take the same software.  From a operations stand point I give niether an advantage unless you are out on the water.

I would keep track of the Garmin rebates and only buy when they have rebate program going.  Which is a couple of times a year. 

[victorcharlie]

I passed a fellow yesterday while hiking Beech Bottom Tail in the Cohutta wilderness area in SE TN/ N. Georgia who had a new 76CXS.......my legend was searching for signal and had 2 sats........his had 7.

The wife and I were headed for Beech Bottom Falls, and while looking for the falls, or a bushwack directly to the fall, my legend was unable to track and stayed searching for signal......so, we walked an extra mile and a half or so staying on the trail........

He had topo software loaded on his 76CXS........I had a 1:63,000 National geographic map........

I have most of the 1:24,000 USGS topo maps of the Cherokee, but didn't have one for the area in N. Georgia.......

A 1:63,000 is fine for general work but not worth a darn for bushwacking with a compass.......

The fellow had just purchased the 76 a few days ago and had never used a gps.......I spent a few minutes explaining the benefits of using UTM, Nad27 in conjunction with a USGS topo map and UTM tool.....(I had the area just north), and a general overview of it's capability when used in conjunction with a hard copy map, compass, and UTM tool......also went over how to change fields in the trip computer to see what is needed ........He was very thankful as he hadn't had time to really sit down and figure it out........

One other thing, my legend was 200 feet different (lower) in elevation as compared to his 76 with barometric altimeter.......

He was 65 years old, and his buddy was 79......I hope I can do that at that age!

I told the wife it might be time to upgrade.....and use the legend for a "backup".......now....I got to sell the idea a little better!

[Siskiyou]

UTM AND NAD

When I got into the gps navigation business I did a little checking around to see what the U.S. Land Management agencies were using for fire, law enforcement, and S&R dispatch.  My reasons were very selfish.  If needed emergency help I wanted to make sure the rescuers found me, and the secondary reason was that if I was assisting somebody that they received help in the shortest possible time.

Now days most agencies are using a computer assisted dispatch program. (CAD)  There are a number of CAD programs being used.  Some of the difference is dictated by multiple agencies sharing the same building.  If State and National Agencies share aircraft such as helicopters, spotter planes, and air tanker safety dictates that they use the same system. 

Most CAD systems have a find option in which the dispatch can enter the geographic name and the system will provide a Lat/Long in Degrees Decimal, Degrees Decimal Degrees (seldom used), Degrees Minutes Seconds. (Law Enforcement Reports)  If you start out with one of these three the CAD will give the Dispatcher the UTM.

I have watched dispatcher struggle when working with UTM.  For some reason the entering of the UTM in the program does not work for most.  But you do not need to fight the system.  If you have your gps setup in UTM you can write down the UTM, create a waypoint, go to system>units, and change the units to hddd°mm.mmm’ . 

NAD can get you at times.  You’re map and the NAD you are using needs to be the same.  But in many cases I have found it does not make a big difference if you are not surveying.  NAD did not make a difference when I was using a magnetic compass, but suddenly with a gps I needed to be concerned about NAD. 

I asked a friend who works in an Emergency Command System which NAD the system map is based on.  I was given the name and phone number of the person to talk to regarding the subject.  The bottomline is the CAD system in question is based on NAD WGS 84.  Garmin’s US Topo is also based WGS 84.  NAD stands for North American Datum.

I just pulled three Maps, a city map, which shows no NAD, a Forest Service recreation map from the 60’s that shows no NAD, and a Topo map from the 1970’s that shows NAD 27. 

So I grew up when some were still using the rod and chain as surveying measurements.  In fact you will find “K” tags in the woods that give the location in Township, Range, Section, and on the tag a nail is in it marking the location in the section.  Some of the brighter boys think these were put up as targets.  In the above example both the Topo Map and Forest Service map have the Township, Range, and Section identified.  But as a gps user you are going to use Lat/Long or UTM. 

In January I have been asked to teach a couple of LEO types how to use their new Garmin 60CSX.  I am sure they will want the unit setup in Degrees Minutes Seconds because that is the format their LE reports require.  And they will use NAD WGS84 because the CAD and the system require it.

I need to ask the question, but I suspect that government archeologist use UTM. 

A tough one is when a location is relayed from person A, to B, and then to the dispatch.

This explanation may have been the result of brain damage or resulted in brain damage, I am not sure at this time.

[victorcharlie]

I used lat and long for years...and always spent a fair amount of time determining where my position was in relation to the map......but USGS  and forest service topo maps have UTM coordinates along the bottom,top, and sides of the map.  I draw in my own grid lines and label each block on the map with a pencil.  UTM is the easiest way to take a coordinate from the gps and transpose it onto a paper topo map.  The UTM grid is 1000 meters by 1000 meters.  On a 1:24,000 scale map, it's possible to pinpoint the location to less than 10 meters using a UTM grid tool, or estimate without the tool to within 100 meters or so......

UTM is very similar to the system the military uses to call in air or artillery strikes.

It's my understanding the search and rescue squads, and the forest service have switched to UTM.  In the event of a true emergancy, I figure I'd give UTM and Lat long as it's easy enough to switch back and forth between them.

As for using the correct datum, I find the error between NAD27 and WGS84 to be close to 200 meters......or, by switching back and forth from a known point on a map, there seems to be a 200 meter difference.......now, 200 meters isn't much, until your trying to find a cave entrance on the side of a steep mountain.....

If you haven't looked into using UTM, you should......It's very easy to use, and very accurate in relation to pinpointing a location on a map.

Here's a good site to start:  http://erg.usgs.gov/isb/pubs/factsheets/fs07701.html
http://www.casanovasadventures.com/catalog/gps/p3034.htm
http://maptools.com/UsingUTM/
http://education.usgs.gov/common/lessons/gps_questions_and_answers.htm

[Siskiyou]

I agree that UTM is a good system and the World turns.  If you give rescuers the location of your snow cave on a tall, snow capped mountain using UTM or Lat/Long you just gave yourself a chance.  As VictorCharlie noted your gps can be switched from one to the other.  You can always give them both.  The key is that if you are in a group of five and everybody is using a gps; use the same unit of measure.

I have worked around a number of people who use a handheld, recreational class gps daily on the job.  For some it is the means to a wicked end.  The wildland fireman is required to enter Lat/Long on his fire report.  The law enforcement officer is required to enter the Lat/Long for the same fire on his incident report or on the administrative portion of a ticket he has issued.  The funny or sad thing is that each one uses a different format to identify the same location.  If the fire was associated with a historical mining claim would the Minerals Officer use UTM when recording the incident?  Would the archeologist use UTM in his report because items of historical nature were destroyed.  I have sent an e-mail to a person who operates in both areas asking what format the two shops use.

I was raised watching the sunrise behind Mt. Shasta in the morning, and set on it in the evening.  It is hard to beat the view when you are looking at Shasta, or looking from it.  But as little guys my buddies and I were always discussing Shasta.  Shasta dominates the area and develops it’s own storm systems.  And the winds can be over 100 miles an hour, dry, or drop a few feet of snow during the night.  The view or lack of can be a killer if you are caught on Shasta during a storm, or worse yet, break an ankle and be caught up there during a storm.

http://www.shastaavalanche.org/accident.htm

A gps can be an important tool in speeding up your rescue.  It can do a couple of things for you.  Did you know that with the error factor in gps units that if you are on the edge of a cliff the position shown could be the same at the top of a cliff and the same at the bottom?  In the world of mountain climbing information of the victims location makes the difference.  It can make the difference in living and dieing.  In stormy conditions it may take a rescue team 24-hours to get from the base of a cliff to the top of it.  They may not climb the cliff but go around it.  The altitude displayed on your gps maybe critical in your rescue.  A gps without a barometric altimeter will be helpful, but the information can be in error.  Accuracy is dependent on how many and the position of the satellites your unit is receiving.  If your gps is loaded with Topo software you can verify your altitude using the contour lines.  The GPSMAP 60CSx and GPSMAP 76CSx also incorporates a barometric altimeter for extremely accurate elevation data and an electronic compass that displays an accurate heading while standing still.

I should note that I do not have the more expensive CSx models and feel comfortable with mine.  But I had not thought about it much before.  One of my stands is on top of a two hundred foot cliff.  A great view of an old clearcut below from the perch, but one heck of a fall.    I come in behind on a narrow ridge to get to my perch.  (Garmin has a good story about a 76C being dropped out of a small plane and hitting the ground.  It was operational after the drop.)

I can remember as a kid people dieing on Mt. Shasta.  Today’s climber with a gps, and cellphone chances of rescue are improved

Whatever unit of measurement you use, understand it, and be able to explain to somebody over your cellphone.  There are times that 911 centers are operating in overload and you may not get the most experience dispatcher answering your call. 

One caller to a Command Center told the dispatcher that she was at an accident West of A-7 on her auto club map.  It required the dispatcher to ask a few more questions because the Command Center does not use or stock Auto Club Maps.  In this day and age the dispatcher can plug the Lat/Long or UTM into the computer and the location of the incident will show on the map, and the CAD will show nearest resources to the incident.

Geocaching is an interesting activity.  http://www.geocaching.com/

I have had no problem going out and finding a film canister using Lat/Long provide at the website.  You can also get UTM information for the cache at the site.

[Siskiyou]

Here are Excerpts from a Forest Service document regarding gps use.  The excerpts are taken from a large document but contain key information that can transfer
to the recreational use of a gps unit.  This is getting Nerdy



For several years, GPS data have been collected by the Forest Service. In the early years of GPS, data were frequently collected in NAD27 so that they would agree with NAD27 base maps (e.g., topographic and other maps that were produced in NAD27) without any additional effort. In 1992, there was a national mandate to switch geographic datums to the NAD83 datum. For various reasons, this has not been done consistently across the agency. Recently, the Geospatial Advisory Committee has drafted a memo reaffirming this mandate, and has created a timeline for the final mandatory conversion. Conversion of legacy GIS vector data stored in NAD27 or other datums to the NAD83 datum will entail using standard GIS transformation methods

For those who use NAD27… set the datum to NADCON in GPS applications using NAD27 coordinates
when possible. Not using this method for NAD27 data can result in several meters of error. NOTE:
There are WGS84/NAD27 transformation issues within ArcPad and ArcMap (see Appendix J).
This document does not discuss all the complexities involving projections and datums. Instead, it
simply outlines what projection and datum need to be used depending on the data situation. The
following table mainly pertains to Forest Service’s use of data in the NAD83 datum in Region 2.

USGS Topo Geographic (Lat/Long) NAD83 quad tics can usually be found offset from the NAD27 tics.
Currently, USGS topos do not have NAD83 UTM tics.
GIS data for Region 2, GIS data resides in UTM, NAD83 Conus, Zone 13 N, meters
GPS receivers when collecting data, most GPS receivers store positions in Geographic (Lat/Long) WGS84
Waypoints when creating waypoints, one must keep in mind what projection/datum the source coordinates are
in, especially when entering the coordinates by hand. Geographic WGS84/NAD83 coordinates are
different from Geographic NAD27 coordinates.
GPS Analyst/ArcPad The correct datum transformation will need to be used based on the situation to correctly move
between WGS84 and NAD83 to remove the 1 meter difference between the datums.

D. Waypoints
Many times, it is useful to upload GIS data to a GPS unit for use in the field, whether for updating
information or for simple navigation. It is important to understand a little about projections (see
Section I, part B) when preparing data for navigation back out in the field.
When entering waypoints manually, set the GPS/GIS projection to match the projection of the source
coordinates of the point to enter. For example, if entering a Lat/Long NAD27 coordinate in Pathfinder
Office that originated from GIS or a Topo, you would set the Pathfinder coordinate system to Lat/Long
NADCON. If entering a Lat/Long NAD83 coordinate that originated from the GPS unit that was set to
Lat/Long NAD83 Conus, you would set the Pathfinder coordinate system to Lat/Long NAD83 Conus.
You can create and upload Waypoint files to a Trimble GPS unit using Pathfinder Office.
Garmin GPS12 UTM points appear to be rounded to whole numbers and tenths for Lat/Long. A point in
UTM NAD83 does not necessarily match the same UTM NAD83 point entered on a Trimble. There is at
least couple meters difference. Also, be aware of the difference between Geographic WGS84, NAD83
and NAD27 coordinate values.

I need to write up and example on how the above can benefit a hunting planning a route up a mountain using a topo, software on a computer and then loading the route on to you gps. 

F. Fire (Incident) Application
More and more, the firefighting community is using GPS as a tool for mapping and navigation. The wide
variety of basic GPS receivers, relatively low expense and interface with GIS applications has increased
the need for GIS specialists (and average users) to become more familiar with this type of data
management and manipulation. Garmin receivers are probably the most common units found on an
incident.
Unlike GIS specialists who normally work in projected coordinates (UTM, State Plane), the fire
community typically operates in Geographic (Latitude/Longitude) coordinate space. For standard
communication purposes, the fire community (at least in Region 2) is supposed to provide coordinates in:
Latitude/Longitude
Degrees, Minutes, Decimal Seconds (DD° MM’ SS.ss”)
However, for communication with aircraft, the format is typically:
Latitude/Longitude
Degrees, Decimal Minutes (DD° MM.mm”)
These standards do not stipulate a datum. A GIS specialist is often asked to plot these coordinates on a
map. For this reason the GIS user should always ask the person providing the coordinates:
“What is the coordinate system? What is the datum?”
This only applies to verbal or hand-written coordinates. If data was physically collected within the GPS
unit, it usually exists as Geographic WGS84 data until it is downloaded into GIS.

b. Coordinate System for GPS Unit
The user should select a coordinate system they are most comfortable with for display
purposes. If there are several units assigned to a particular project/resource unit, then all should
be set to the same coordinate system. This should be decided by the project or resource unit
leader. It does not matter what coordinate system is set on the GPS as it always stores data in
Geographic (Lat/Long) WGS84. The user will convert the data into a desired projection using
the export function in Pathfinder Office.
NOTE: The coordinate system can make a difference when entering waypoints or referencing
a map. The user needs to keep in mind the coordinate’s source when manually entering a
point.
Coordinate System: LAT/LONG
Datum: NAD83 Conus
Altitude Reference: MSL
Altitude Units: FEET

C. GPS Datum Transformation Setup
GPS data can shift up to several meters from the correct location when not using the correct datum
transformation from WGS84 into NAD83 or NAD27.

I left out a bunch of Nerdy stuff, but a little knowledge of the above maybe helpful. 

A while back I was explaining gps use to a hunting partner.  He is a very bright boy whose come back was that he is a country hick.  But a few days ago I recieved an e-mail asking about gps units and cellphones.  This was kicked off because of the S&R operation for the Kim family in Southern Oregon.  That event because of the related publicity has drawn a lot of attention to gps and cellphones.  Just remember that if you buy into a gps/cellphone navigation plan you need to be in your providers service area, and you need to hit a cell tower.  That is rather difficult in the Western Mountains.  And my brother-in-law says they have the same problem in the Southern Rockies.  Here is a link to one providers package.  http://estore.vzwshop.com/vznavigator/?cm_mmc=Verizon+Wireless-_-Handset+Post+Upgrade%5BHQ0001%5D-_-Nokia+6315i+%2D+West-_-Hero+Bullet+3+Copy&cm_em=b_sopp@yahoo.com

[SURVEYOR]

I need to write up and example on how the above can benefit a hunting planning a route up a mountain using a topo, software on a computer and then loading the route on to you gps. 

That would be kind of you Siskiyou! I'm a PLS. And even thou I use survey grade GPS units for survey control, I have found that I know very little about GIS and mapping. But I have also found GIS and mapping standards are not close enought to survey property by. Boundary locations and deeds are not perfict, being not all property corners have been not mapped in a vast portion of the COUS. And attorneys write the  mass majority of legal descriptions for land transactions and recordation. AND THEY SURE AREN'T OUT THERE SURVEYING AND MAPPING!

Thank You,

SURVEYOR

[Siskiyou]

SURVEYOR :  I'll work on that.  It may be a few days, grandma is telling that the grand kids think something is up Sunday night and Monday morning.  I have no clue but I guess I need to be prepared.  Sure seems like a lot of grocerys are stock piled in the kitchen.  I have told that we are going to the wife's mother's house so I might escape doing dishes.

A stack of rocks or a pile of bufflo chips do not make for one hundred year boundary markers.   Espcially when somebody pushes the rocks with the blade of a tractor, and the chips burn in a fire.  Witness trees die and fall, and then made into firewood.  Your life as a surveyor is a Nancy Drew detective story.

I am outside the curve regarding GIS.  I know people who make their living at it, and they are key playing in providing data for emergency CAD systems. 

Merry Christmas.

[jmm1245]

I'm new to personal GPS. 10 years ago (or so, can't remember for sure, we ran AutoCAD 12) I was working with survey grade units from gimble (sp?). We had to buy the rights to take the Gov't off set so our loops would close.We mainly did large plots that coal mines or quarries owned and would down load nodes from digitized Quads  after we plotted meets and bounds descriptions in another layer. It was great for us, no more 5 days treks with the total station, just go stand on the corners until we had about 3 min of data.
The 60CSx is great. I hunt in Heavy cover and never have a problem with sat's. I was just out 17 miles offshore in Fl on vacation fishing and had better sat's and direction then the ship's unit. I can't say enough about this unit. It's great.

jmm1245