.40-70 Sharps Straight from .405 (Hornady) Winchester brass

[ShortStake]

Gents and Madams,

Latest addition to the BPCR inventory is an original Winchester 1885 thick-walled Highwall in .40-70 Sharps Straight.  Octagonal barrel is a Green Mountain installed and trimmed to 30" and then chambered to .40-70SS by Richard McKinney of Schuetzen Rifle Company in Colorado.

Anyone have any fresh  modern day experiences with making .40-70 (.40 2 1/2") Sharps Straight from .405 (Hornady) Winchester brass?  Especially experience with GOEX Cartridge or Express powders.

Am familiar with and have digested the .40-70 Sharps Straight article published in the October 2006 issue of Single Shot Exchange.

First efforts with 100 Hornady head stamped .405 Winchester cases has been to trim to 2.500", debur the flash holes and square up the primer pockets with an RCBS case prep machine.  The .405 Hornady brass comes annealed from the factory.  The primer pocket squaring operation is quite a task as the primer pockets are tight and the brass is tough/hard!  Not at all an easy task as is previously accomplished on Winchester or Remington .45-70 brass.

Appreciate any and all first hand information on the modern day black powder loading of the .40-70 Sharps Straight.

Thanks,

From the Land of Enchantment,

Shortstake
Deming, New Mexico         

[ND Sharpshooter]

Short Stake,

How about some pictures of your new "baby" for the rest of us to drool over?

[sharps4590]

Hey Shortstake....

Congrats on your latest acquisition!  I believe you'll find the 40-70 SS a wonderful cartridge to work with and easy to feed.  Mine is also the most accurate BPC I've ever owned or fired.  Mine is a # 1 Sporter, Shiloh Sharps with MVA tang and windage adjustable front sight.

My work with this cartridge consists of one load.  It was so accurate I never looked any farther.  Out to 500 yds. it will hold MOA on a day with no wind and good light.....and with me having a good day!   I've yet to shoot it beyond that distance.

My load is 62 grs. of GOEX Ctg., Walters Wonder Wad and a Lyman 410465 bullet cast 25-1, SPG lube in Remington reformed 30-40 Krag brass from Buffalo Arms and Federal 215 Magnum primers.  Bullet is seated to just kiss the lands.

I killed one deer with this rifle/load combination.  A forkhorn at about 60 yards, facing me.  Penetration was complete, brisket thru ham, and the deer went down and stayed down.

Good luck with your new toy!  I believe you'll enjoy it.

Vic

[ShortStake]

Gents and Madams,

Yesterday was a grand day.  Met three friends in Las Cruces to peruse the new Sportsman's Warehouse and then have lunch.  Two friends from El Paso, Texas and one from Las Cruces, New Mexico.  All gun afficianados of vast life experiences and a joy to be with while dining and sharing stories.  Friend Oscar while looking over the 1885 Winchester in .40-70 Sharps Straight and matching cartridge with a .40 caliber NASA cast bullet installed immediately and forever named both the rifle and cartridge.  Panatela!

All rifles should have names.

The 1885 Winchester is serial number 217, dating from November 1885, first month of production.

Now if Mother Nature will just send some warm air into Southwestern New Mexico!  Perhaps some .40-70 cases filled with GOEX Cartridge grade black powder and .40 caliber (Old West) NASA bullets can make friends with some 385 meter Turkey targets.   

Life is truly grand.

From the Land of Enchantment

ShortStake

[G Curtis]

I've been shooting/playing with a new winchester high wall in 405 WCF loaded with black powder for about a year now. Since I am shooting a full length 405 case in a winchester I call it a 40-72 winchester. Cases are loaded with 62 grains of goex 2F, 410 cast bullet from a brooks mold, SPG lube. I get about 1100 FPS. Going to same volume 3F goex got me about 1175 FPS, I was hoping for a little more. Even so, I get better accuracy than with the 40-65 high wall I had been shooting with the same bullet. If the rifle had a set trigger and a few more pounds I would be using it for silhouette. I got a turkey off hand at 385 meters with it this fall at a turkey shoot at our local range. I am glad that hornaday made it possilbe to put such a cartridge together.

[Lead pot]

Shortstake.
You might want to check the Bore and Groove on that rifle.
The original .40 70ss used a .406 to .408. if you have the .408 groove you might have a problem with the Hornady cases because of the thick case wall that brass has.
My Sharps will not except the Hornady brass with a .408 diameter bullet using that brass with out thinning the case necks down to were the bullet base will seat or you will swage the bullet base down to as much as .406.
If you have a liberal chamber you wont have a problem with it. It's good brass.
I use the Hornady brass only for the Paper Patched bullet, it's ideal for that.
If you have that problem with the chamber Buffalo Arms has .30/40 stretched brass that I use for the .408 bullet.
Good luck with that .40, it is a very good cartridge.

Kurt

[ShortStake]

Kurt,

The old 1885, thickside, 1885 High Wall, has been rebarreled with a Green Mountain Octagonal .40 Caliber barrel.  Cut to 30" and crowned and chambered to .40-70 Sharps Straight by Schuetzen Gun shop in Drake, Colorado, (Richard McKinney).  Mr. McKinney does very good work.

Initial load efforts for fire forming are as follows:

1.  Hornady head stamped .405 Winchester brass, cut and trimmed to 2.509" for a tight fit into the chamber for fire forming.  Hornday brand .405  reload dies Neck expander die used to straighten necks.  No other sizing accomplished.

2.  Flash holes deburred, Primer pockets squared and necks chamfered using RCBS case master.

3.  Over primer wad, .005 thick from brown paper coffee filters.  Installed prior to priming.

4.  Primer, CCI BR2

5.  GOEX Cartridge grade from May 2002 used, 73.0 grains (yes that is correct) weighed and drop tubed 41".  Compacted powder height is .132" below case mouth.

6.  Over powder wads (3); .030" LDPE, .018" card wad, .002" thin paper.

7.  Powder column and wads compressed to .350" below case mouth.

8.  Old West, .40 caliber NASA bullet, weith 403 grains.

9  Cartridge overall length is 3.480" which is just short of engaging lands.

No case or bullet indexing accomplished.

Now to find time to empty the 50 rounds of this load at some 385 meter Turkey silhouettes.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year........................

From the Land of Enchantment,

Shortstake

     

[Lead pot]

  Well Son y'all better git goin and shoot that turkey an have it fer Christmas
Hey it sounds like you are on your way with that .40.
Let us know how it turns out.
Merry Christmas to you also.
Kurt

[cooper]

I also shoot a Shiloh Sharps 40/70 straight, and with the NASA bullet, too.

FANTASTIC gun (and bullet).  I've shot a Browning 40/65 since 1998, and it was also was an outstanding rifle and cartridge, and when I got the Sharps in early 2005, I said to myself if the Sharps shot anywhere near as well as that Browning, I would be happy.  Now, after 2700 rounds, I think the 40/70 Sharps actually shoots a bit better than the Browning!

My Sharps has a slight quirk:  the throat is fairly tight.  The RCBS 400 gr bullet has to be seated way too deep in the cases in order to chamber.  I can't use it, and I can't use my Paul Jones 40 cal Creedmoor for the same reason.  When I explained my problem to Bernie at Old West Bullet Moulds, he sent me a few samples of the NASA bullet.  It fit OK, as long as the nose section just above the front driving band was around .400" or smaller.  He made me a mould that cast that way.  Even so, I have to seat that bullet right to the very top of the top driving band.    In my mould that bullet weighs 402 grains in 20:1.

The only thing I don't like about the NASA bullet is that if you pan lube it, you can't "pop" it out of the lube cake.  If you try to do that, a lot of the lube won't stay in the lube groove.  You have to use a kake-kutter, which is OK, but it's slower and messier.  I don't use a lubri-sizer  -  and I shoot the bullet unsized.

I use Buffalo Arms 30/40 Krag cases.  No complaints.

My powder choice is regular Goex Fg.  I load 70 grains of it, and at an OAL of 3.40", compression will be .15".  MV is 1200 fps, and it shoots great!   I usually shoot a match of 60 rounds with no cleaning  -  just blow-tubing.

I used to shoot 70 grains of Swiss 3F.  Compression is only .05" so I can compress the powder during the seating of the bullet (without using a compression die).  MV is way up there, at 1380 fps, so I especially liked it for 1000 yd. matches.   There is one problem with this load - in hot and dry weather, I think it is fouling the barrel.  I know that in hot and dry weather, I get unexplained misses, especially beyond about 500 yd.  I have gotten away from this load and am sticking with the Goex Fg for now.   

I use a .060" LDPE over-powder wad, and Winchester WLR primers, but in limited tests with the BR-2, it gave me more consistent ballistics.  I expect I may eventually switch to the BR-2.

I've also tested an over-primer wad, but found no improvement in ballistics.

Good luck!!  Let us know how it shoots.

[Lead pot]

Cooper.
With those small GG the Nasa bullet has you might preheat the bullets before you pour the lube in the pan (I use a hot air gun)and let it thoroughly cool before pushing the bullet out.
I have a problem with Swiss in the .40/70 SS it seems to get a little tough to control the fouling as it warms up, and if it gets away on me I might just as well clean it.
I use 1F goex express in mine with very good accuracy, the fouling is very moist and is easy to control. I been using 3F express and it is driving a .420 grain creedmoor at 1306 that shoots good.
Can you tell me how you compress your powder? If you are using the bullet to compress the powder when you seat it that might be your problem, or if your putting a tight crimp on the bullet you might be bumping the bullet up in the nose enough to keep it from chambering.
You can even run into a problem while seating your bullet with a lot of neck tension and bumping the soft bullet up enough to keep it from chambering, for instance taking a bullet that is .408-.410 diameter and expanding the case neck to .406 especially if the case neck has been worked many times with out annealing, and a bullet like a creedmoor type of ogive that is a .001-.002 under bore at the nose will bump up with 1/30 alloy.
Just a thought Cooper.

Kurt

[cooper]

Good point about possibly expanding or bulging you bullet if you use it to compress powder.  I should have gone into more detail about that.

I've found that you can seat your bullet and compress powder at the same time, as long as the powder compression is not greater than about one-tenth or one-eighth of an inch. 

More than that and I use a compression die first.  Since all my various Goex loads are compressed .20" to .30", I always use the compression die when loading Goex.

But Swiss works well with very little compression, so you can save a loading step by compressing the powder during bullet seating.  Most of my Swiss loads are compressed around .05".

I should mention I use 20:1 exclusively (for matches).  If you use a softer alloy, make sure you're not expanding it during seating or you can have chambering problems like Lead Pot mentioned. 

The seating problem I have with the 40/70 is definitely in the throat.  I checked OAL by inserting a bullet (by itself) into the throat, and then measuring from the muzzle, to get OAL where the bullet touches the lands.

[Lead pot]

Here is a good accurate way to measure the over all length of a round using a particular type of bullet .
Close the breach block and insert a cleaning rod and use a felt marker and put a mark at the end of the muzzle.
Next put a bullet you plan on using in the breach and slightly push it in with a unsharpened pencil or what ever till it engraves the Land, now lower the cleaning rod till it touches the bullet and place a another mark on the cleaning rod.
Measure the marks that are closest to the muzzle and that will be the over all length of the loaded round.
I have a dummy round made up for every bullet and rifle I use for setting my seating dies.

Kurt

[mick 41]

Anyone had luck with Hornady 405 Brass in Shiloh Sharps 40-70ss. I will be getting one soon and would like to try other brass beside 30-40 Krag reformed.  Thanks Mick 41

[cooper]

mick 41, I have not tried this, but from what I've heard, most of the people who have tried to use 405 Winchester brass in a Shiloh 40/70 Straight (not sure about other manufacturers) have had a lot of problems.  It has to be trimmed to 2.5" first, of course, but beyond that, I understand the base of the 405 is quite a bit larger in diameter than the 40/70.  Some have had limited success with simply resizing the 405 brass, but most just can't get it to chamber, unless they use a special ring die which can resize the extreme base of the brass, right above the rim.

Even then, the neck is a bit thicker than needed, and you may have trouble after seating a bullet  - there may not be enough room to chamber the round, or it may be so tight the brass cannot expand enough to release the bullet (not a good situation!).  Neck turning might be required. 

If I could buy just a few Hornady .405 cases I would give it a try, but from what I've been reading, it's not worth it.  Buffalo Arms' reformed 30/40 Krag work great for me. 

[Lead pot]

mick.

The Hornady brass is good, but you will have to do some home work with it like I posted above.
The 30/40 brass is good, I would get it, but make sure it is made for the Shiloh so you keep the correct head spacing, do not use the 30/40 brass made for the  the C Sharps.
If you want to use the .405 Hornady brass, I found some of the brass was thick in the web ahead of the rim. I would not turn it down to fit.
What I do is I got a lower priced Lyman sizing die and shell holder. First I turned the shell holder down in the lathe and reduced the top of the holder to the point were it was still strong enough to hold the case, it's a lot softer to turn down then the hardened die is.
I also took a 3/16" off the bottom of the die to get rid of the rounded edge at the die mouth and just kept enough of the rounded edge so it dont mar the case.
I dont insert the case with the shell holder because it still leaves a small roll just above the rim on some of the cases, some cases have some variance from lot to lot.
So what I did was drill out the hole were the depriming pin goes through and made it large enough to run a 5/16 hardened bolt through.
I also made a recessed plate that fits over the top of the ram  and I push a case into the die till the rim contacts the die base then drive it out with a mallet using the pin.
It sounds like a lot of work but you get a good case, and once the die is made it does not take long to rework the case.
I had Wilson make a reamer to turn down the inside case mouth. But that is not necessary if you shoot paper patch patched to bore diameter.

Kurt