Author Topic: Savage ML10 in Michigan (Read 1886 times)

flathead · « **on:** December 20, 2006, 03:44:55 AM »

Hello,

I'm trying to pick between the "best of the best." I'm waffling between a TC and the Savage. I own a centerfire Savage and the accutrigger and rifle is awesome. It would appear, at least to me, that using smokeless in the rifle in MI in ML season is not legal. The rifle loaded with 777 would be legal. Is the Savage still worth the money if it can't be used to its true potential with smokeless? I can't find anyone around here that owns one. Thanks for the help and God Bless!

mparks · « **Reply #1 on:** December 20, 2006, 03:46:07 AM »

You are correct. Smokeless in the Savage is legal only during the firearms season.

elkstalkr · « **Reply #2 on:** December 20, 2006, 04:43:03 AM »

I own a savage and an Omega. If I could not use smokeless during ML, I would have never bought the savage.

My reccommendation is stick with T/C if you can't use smokless powder.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #3 on:** December 20, 2006, 05:12:20 AM »

I don't see why anyone would go with a Savage over a Encore or Omega. I shoot 250 yards with my Pro-hunter, the only advantage to smokeless is the clean up. Other than that, could someone please explain what other advantage smokeless offers over 150 gr. of triple 7 . I could not find one. JMHO.

Stick with T/C

Busta · « **Reply #4 on:** December 20, 2006, 05:42:47 AM »

Quote from: mparks on December 20, 2006, 03:46:07 AM

You are correct. Smokeless in the Savage is legal only during the firearms season.

You forgot to add legal only in the rifle zone when hunting deer during the general firearms deer season. The savage with smokeless is not legal in the shotgun zone for deer anytime. However, it can be used with smokeless for hunting other than deer statewide, such as coyote & woodchuck. Smokeless is illegal statewide during the Muzzleloading Deer Seasons.

If only being purchased for deer hunting in Michigan, the Savage is a waste of time and money when using BP & BP Subs. Several other, easier to clean muzzleloaders out there. If you only hunt in the rifle zone during the General Firearms Deer Season and want to use a smokeless muzzleloader instead of a center fire rifle, that's cool.

Myerslake2005 · « **Reply #5 on:** December 20, 2006, 05:49:05 AM »

Redhawk 1 what are your trajectories when you sight in for a 250 yard shot as well as powder charge and bullet? I'm looking at the Pro-Hunter for that type of shooting in Michigan farm country when the deer stand at 185-210 yards out in the field per the range finder. Looked at my shotgun and said time for a .50 cal muzzleloader. My .54 won't reach out and touch them very well at that distance.

1187VX2 · « **Reply #6 on:** December 20, 2006, 07:16:19 AM »

Redhawk, you ask what other advantages the Savage has - I'll offer 3.

Cost of powder. Smokeless is way cheaper per pound than those pellets and most smokeless loads are 40 - 50 grains - A pound lasts a while.

Recoil. The load I use in my Savage is around 2300 FPS with a 250 grain bullet. Recoil is fairly mild. Nothing like my Knight Disc with 110 - 120 grains 777.

Muzzle Velocity - While I'm satisfied with 2300 FPS, alot of guys are pushing the envelope and getting 2,500 fps & up.

Maybe none of these mean much (you decide) & I'll admit I wouldn't have bought the Savage if Illinois hadn't gone smokeless, but I really enjoy the Savage as it has eliminated alot of the crap I used to hate about muzzleloading.

elkstalkr · « **Reply #7 on:** December 20, 2006, 07:38:22 AM »

Redhawk,

The smokeless does have a higher velocity, but thats not why I bought mine. Mainly the two reasons below are.

Its just not easy clean up, ITS NO CLEAN UP. I clean it about as often as my centerfire. After 20-30 rounds, time is not an issue, as thier is no corrosion to worry about.

No smoke belching out the end and you wondering...."where the hell did my animal run" and "I'm pretty sure I hit it but couldn't see anything afterwards"

Granted, I realize ALOT of you muzzleload because you love that smoke, and thats just fine. I am not bashing that, I just prefer to shoot without it.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #8 on:** December 20, 2006, 08:53:09 AM »

Quote from: Myerslake2005 on December 20, 2006, 05:49:05 AM

Redhawk 1 what are your trajectories when you sight in for a 250 yard shot as well as powder charge and bullet? I'm looking at the Pro-Hunter for that type of shooting in Michigan farm country when the deer stand at 185-210 yards out in the field per the range finder. Looked at my shotgun and said time for a .50 cal muzzleloader. My .54 won't reach out and touch them very well at that distance.

Myerslake2005, I am using 120 gr. of loose triple 7 powder and 250 gr. T/C Bonded Shock wave bullets. I don't have the actual trajectory for different distances, but my Nikon Omega 250 BDC scope does all the trajectory work for me. I zero the gun in at 100 yards with the cross hairs, at 150 yards I put the first circle on the target and the bullets are right on target, I move out to 200 yards and put the second circle on the target and it is right one. The same applies with the 3 circle at 225 yards and the forth circle at 250 yards. The combination makes the Encore a 250 yards killing machine.

Myerslake2005 · « **Reply #9 on:** December 20, 2006, 08:59:48 AM »

sounds like my new Pro-Hunter barrel is going to have a Nikon Omega scope on it.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #10 on:** December 20, 2006, 09:01:58 AM »

Quote from: 1187VX2 on December 20, 2006, 07:16:19 AM

Redhawk, you ask what other advantages the Savage has - I'll offer 3.

Cost of powder. Smokeless is way cheaper per pound than those pellets and most smokeless loads are 40 - 50 grains - A pound lasts a while.

Recoil. The load I use in my Savage is around 2300 FPS with a 250 grain bullet. Recoil is fairly mild. Nothing like my Knight Disc with 110 - 120 grains 777.

Muzzle Velocity - While I'm satisfied with 2300 FPS, alot of guys are pushing the envelope and getting 2,500 fps & up.

Maybe none of these mean much (you decide) & I'll admit I wouldn't have bought the Savage if Illinois hadn't gone smokeless, but I really enjoy the Savage as it has eliminated alot of the crap I used to hate about muzzleloading.

I get triple 7 powder for less than I can buy smokeless, I pick p 8 pounds at $8.00 a pound at Wal-Mart after the close of season. I don't use pellets, I agree they are costly. Recoil is not bad in my Pro-hunter with 120 gr. of triple 7. As far as velocity, I go for accuracy over velocity. Accuracy is more important than smoking a bullet out of a barrel real fast. Plus most M/L bullets are not designed to function at upper level velocities. It takes a good combination of everything to make a M/L work and be effective.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #11 on:** December 20, 2006, 09:04:07 AM »

Quote from: Myerslake2005 on December 20, 2006, 08:59:48 AM

sounds like my new Pro-Hunter barrel is going to have a Nikon Omega scope on it.

I am a died in blue Leupold man and 90% of my guns wear Leupold, but I am very impressed with the Nikon Omega 250 DBC scope. I would recommend it to anyone looking for a great set up for a muzzleloader.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 20, 2006, 09:10:41 AM »

Quote from: elkstalkr on December 20, 2006, 07:38:22 AM

Redhawk,

The smokeless does have a higher velocity, but thats not why I bought mine. Mainly the two reasons below are.

Its just not easy clean up, ITS NO CLEAN UP. I clean it about as often as my centerfire. After 20-30 rounds, time is not an issue, as thier is no corrosion to worry about.

No smoke belching out the end and you wondering...."where the hell did my animal run" and "I'm pretty sure I hit it but couldn't see anything afterwards"

Granted, I realize ALOT of you muzzleload because you love that smoke, and thats just fine. I am not bashing that, I just prefer to shoot without it.

Every gun needs to be cleaned, smokeless or not. I have shot 20 times with my set up with triple 7. I did not have to swab the barrel either. Yea I like the smoke, that's BP hunting. As far as hitting my game, I know if my cross hairs were on the deer when I pulled the trigger, I hit the deer. Also that distinctive whack the bullet makes assured me my shot was true.

If you like smokeless, that is great, but you won't find me shooting it, unless it is in a cartridge.

simonkenton · « **Reply #13 on:** December 20, 2006, 01:31:55 PM »

I like my Savage very much. I am cranking out 2,300 fps with a 250 grain slug. It hits deer like the Hammer of Thor. It is accurate.
I love the smokeless, because I can hunt all day, kill a deer, and not clean the rifle until next year.
If I could not shoot smokeless, I would have an Omega.

DEPUTY · « **Reply #14 on:** December 21, 2006, 02:48:30 AM »

2,300 fps with a 250 grain slug

not bad i get that with a 300 grain sst and 4 pellets

the savag eis a good gun and i think it will become legal in michigan in the near future we shall see, it will take a lot of hard work to get it done though.

slave · « **Reply #15 on:** December 21, 2006, 09:36:47 AM »

You know, for me I think the envolpe has been pushed as far as it should or maybe a bit to far with todays inline. If I up grade anymore I do not think I would be ML hunting at all. I would just grab my old 308. Do not get wrong and I support any leagle means of hunting by anyone who is sound to do so. I just think a ML should be enjoyed for what it is/was not what it can be made to do by inovation.

AndyHass · « **Reply #16 on:** December 21, 2006, 10:03:49 AM »

If you think 200yd shots will be common, look at the 200gr Shockwave. I load it over 110gr 777 and get 2100 fps. I have a range-compensating scope also so I don't have the drops memorized...but it shoots MOA out to 400 yds. Got a thru-and-thru on a doe at 242yds this year.

I'm not sure how I feel about the Savage in MI shotgun zones. Quite frankly, where I do most of my hunting, I would not want everyone in the field carrying one. A high BC slug at 2500 fps....how is that not equivalent to many centerfire rifle cartridges? There's going to come a point where they will have to put powder or bullet restrictions on, or they might as well legalize rifles there too (which isn't going to and shouldn't happen). And there are people developing Savages to shoot .308 bullets now....fun, and I'd like to try it, but not for shotgun-only zones.

I like using my ML during regular firearm season, and I'm a bit afraid including the Savage in that classification might lead to MLs being excluded from shotgun zones in some fashion. BP/substitutes are a natural limit on performance....my ML is more accurate than a shotgun but frankly the trajectory is not much better than good sabot slugs...once you go smokeless, you can make a MLing .30-06.

1187VX2 · « **Reply #17 on:** December 21, 2006, 10:58:41 AM »

$8 a pound for 777 - that's the best deal I've ever heard of! I do love the Sporting goods mark down season - but so far the Wal-Marts I've seen have only come down to $ 20/lb of 777.

Obviously the Savage still retains that one big thing that makes it a muzzleloader - you gotta load it from the muzzle, so you better make that 1st shot count as most deer won't wait around for your 2nd shot.

Now, I've never had the chance to hunt deer with a centerfire rifle - and would if I could. And while ballistics similar to a centerfire are possible with the Savage, I'd say only a very small percentage of savage owners are going to push it that far and the vast majority are going to be happy with a load that is just a little faster than what they could do with any of the other black powder substitutes.

I make no appologies for using the best deer hunting tools that I can, and for the few days I can hunt with a gun, the Savage is it for me.

a45gunslinger · « **Reply #18 on:** December 22, 2006, 10:36:59 AM »

While I don't usually participate in debates. The Savage is much cheaper to shoot. I load 43 gr. of SR-4759 under a 250 gr XTP and average 2290 fps.( 10 shot string) Thats about 162 loads per pound of powder. ($.06 a load ) the XTPs are about $.21 and a sabot $.15, primer $.02 . SO 100 loads would run about $44.00. If you don't shoot alot this is a non issue.

Deputy, What gun are you shooting 4 pellets out of?? and how do the sabots hold up to that??

simonkenton · « **Reply #19 on:** December 23, 2006, 01:06:30 PM »

"2,300 fps with a 250 grain slug

not bad i get that with a 300 grain sst and 4 pellets"

You are getting the same speed with Pyrodex as I get with the Savage. You just proved why the Michigan law is dumb.
If they outlaw the Savage, they should outlaw all inlines.

DEPUTY · « **Reply #20 on:** December 23, 2006, 03:44:06 PM »

45gs

I shoot ultimates, sabots hold up great no issues with even 5 pellets of pyro

wel lsimion its the law so far and until its changed oh well and i do it shooting pyro or t-7 something the savage cant do........ thats why it needs smokeless cause it cant compete with my gun in that arena.

until its change oh well.... iam legal in all zones all season outlaw jeesh more tinfoil time

AndyHass · « **Reply #21 on:** December 24, 2006, 11:42:53 AM »

I don't think the Ultimate makes the law completely illogical. You could make a flintlock strong enough to shoot 200gr of 777 if you wanted to. Inline is just an ignition feature, and a fairly uninportant one with regards to the resulting internal ballistics.

There are only a handful of Ultimates out and they cost a ton. The legions of mass consumer inlines out there are not capable of what they do. If they were, and people were tolerating the recoil they produce, I'd buy into the argument. But the fact is a 200-250gr 777 charge is not something many people are likely to do while smokeless is much easier to do.

My personal feeling is if smokeless is to be legal I'd feel safer with caliber and/or weight restrictions on the bullets. It's just too flat, open and populated around here to be shooting something that truly performs like a .308 or something.

While the Ultimate goes, quite literally, to the ultimate extremes to get 2500 fps out of 777, the Savage will, with less work and a lot less discomfort, get over 3000 fps.

DEPUTY · « **Reply #22 on:** December 25, 2006, 04:32:48 PM »

i have gotten over 3k with lighter bullets 180 and 200's

no need for it so far we have killed alot for critters with 2300 fps just fine out ot over 300+yards including africa zerba dead inits tracks at 280 yds with a 300 grain sst at 2300fps......

ill have to find th exact specs but i know over 300 were sold last year alone maybe more.....

1187VX2 · « **Reply #23 on:** December 26, 2006, 04:48:17 AM »

Illinois (and most states I believe) already have caliber restrictions on muzzleloading bullets - .44 caliber for IL. So I don't really have the option of a 180 grain .35 caliber bullet at 3000 fps.

a45gunslinger · « **Reply #24 on:** January 07, 2007, 07:03:42 PM »

Deputy, The savage shoots black powder just as well.

DEPUTY · « **Reply #25 on:** January 08, 2007, 06:54:58 AM »

NOT REALLY! AS WELL........ AND MY CLEAN UP IS A LOT EASIER

elkstalkr · « **Reply #26 on:** January 09, 2007, 04:03:44 AM »

Quote from: DEPUTY on January 08, 2007, 06:54:58 AM

NOT REALLY! AS WELL........ AND MY CLEAN UP IS A LOT EASIER

No doubt the savage was made to shoot smokeless powder. You can shoot smokefull powder out of it, but clean up wouldn't be as easy as other inlines.

Besides why would I want to foul the barrel of my savage with that nasty stuff, thats what I have my Omega for!