Reloading Ideas for finicky .308 Ultra?

[quickdtoo]

You should be sizing your cases so the empty sized case's rim face is flush with the barrel face, not recessed, not protruding out, place a straight edge across the chamber with the brass chambered to check it.

Tim

[northjdr]

Ok, I did i quick check of a few of my reloaded and resized cases. They are not completely flush, they stick but not more than .001 or .002 " but as I said, the gun closes as normal. I do not have to force it like I did last time around. I have very little gap at the breech. It is tight on a .001 feeler gauge.

[Mac11700]

Ok, I did i quick check of a few of my reloaded and resized cases. They are not completely flush, they stick but not more than .001 or .002 " but as I said, the gun closes as normal. I do not have to force it like I did last time around. I have very little gap at the breech. It is tight on a .001 feeler gauge.

If your frame barrel gap is .001 and your cases are sticking out at various lengths...being .001" and .002" then your bound to have different results...The most you should ever size your case to is exactly what the frame barrel gap is and this is on new unfired brass...not on some that have been reloaded as many times as you have with them.....and most feel much better sizing them -.001 from that...I would say till you get a complete handle on your sizing technique.....you set you sizing die to size the case till it comes out exactly flush each and every time...not under...not over......The small frame barrel gap you have isn't worth the extra trouble over yet...in time..once your more familiar with the procedure..and you want to start benching it more..then you can play with the lengths and see what it brings ya...but unless you are consistent in your technique ..Your only inducing variables back in...instead of removing them 1 by one...

Mac

[DanielWGriggs]

Mac thanks I just picked up a tip I can use....Flush with the back. Thanks to You and Quick.

[Mac11700]

Mac thanks I just picked up a tip I can use....Flush with the back. Thanks to You and Quick.

Your Welcome..

It's usually the best place to start with when first starting out reloading...The main thing to remember is consistency...all the cases have to be exactly the same...If they aren't...you will never know your ammo or the factory ammo isn't the cause of the problems your having.... Folks wonder why they get fliers when shooting factory ammo too...I check every case in my rifle chamber before shooting them..and usually I buy 2 or 3 boxes of the same lot of ammo.This way I can see how many are actually sized different..I select 20 that fit the same..and shoot them ..Some brands of ammo seem to be worse than others....and the same for their bulk brass...In 3 boxes of Remington 280 140 grain Core locks.. I had over 20 that sit far lower in my chamber than the rim about .004"-.005"..about 1/2 box that sit above at varying amounts..001" -.004"...I kept 20...the rest went back.I've had the same problem with some of the Winchester ammo and the same for some Hornady...The only ones I have found that weren't like this was Federal cartridges...and their bulk brass...and Winchester Supreme in their nickel cases...Right before last deer season I purchase a bag of Remington 35 Whelen brass...durn near every case was undersized excessively...I put a call into Remington..and got the old run around that they would check into it...I still haven't heard back from them yet..It pays to take the time to visually verify your cases...as it pays to visually check your loaded ammo...It may take a few extra minutes or longer..but it's time well spent when you can't figure out why you have a problematic rifle...I do this for all of my Handi's...and IMHO...it is probably one of the reasons mine shoot so good...as compared to others...besides from polishing the chambers on the ejector models..and having a rigid cleaning technique...making sure I have a dry bore and latch shelf..To me the extra time I spend is worth it..I think if everyone took the time to do this...there wouldn't be but a fraction of folks complaining so much about these little inexpensive rifles...and more people really liking them.



Mac

[northjdr]

I sized all of my cases the same way in this last loading session. I turned the full length sizing die down at least one turn so that the gun would close easily on the resized case. The die is now as tight to the shell holder as possible so I'm not sure how I can squeeze resize them any tighter with my existing die. I only spot checked about 5 rounds and they all appeared to be not quite flush. When I said ".001 or .002" I didn't intent to imply that they were all different, they might be but I haven't measured, but I didn't move the die during the session.

[Mac11700]

I sized all of my cases the same way in this last loading session. I turned the full length sizing die down at least one turn so that the gun would close easily on the resized case. The die is now as tight to the shell holder as possible so I'm not sure how I can squeeze resize them any tighter with my existing die. I only spot checked about 5 rounds and they all appeared to be not quite flush. When I said ".001 or .002" I didn't intent to imply that they were all different, they might be but I haven't measured, but I didn't move the die during the session.

I understand what your saying...but having a .002" variance in your case size will cause many of the problems your having..I don't remember what die set your using...and certainly won't get into any arguments on that regard... However..When I size my cases with my Redding or Forester dies...they come out exactly the same every time..for run out..and length...I know this because I visually check them...each case...I'm not shooting 200-500 rounds at a time..mostly 50-100 at a time with any particular rifle...and it does take a little while longer to do this..I much prefer a gun that will shoot consitant each time to one that groups all over the place...My Handi's do this...

Mac

[myarmor]

I have to say .001 or .002 may seem like a menial margin, but when it comes to sizing them up it can really mean a lot when trying to get the most out of a Handi.
What Mac says is true and works. Ever sense he first told me about this method, I have used it.
 In my 243 I tried this with just a box of factory ammo, checking for flushness. The ones that were deeper set, I marked the primer with a magic marker, just as Mac advised me to. Later on when I went to the range, I tried both the marked and unmarked at seperate targets. The results were the worst around 2-3" with the deeper set cartridges.
And the best results were all under an inch. I was shocked to say the least when I first tried it.
And I have found out, if I am just making ammo to shoot and plink around, Lee Dies do fine.
But when I need exact measurements and no run out, they don't cut it for me.
This doesn't even go into the cleaning tips and everything else he has passed on.
Big Thank You here buddy 
There has been some good advise offered in the topic.

-Aaron

[northjdr]

I do appreciate all the input. I won't rehash my whole procedure and equiptment but here's some info. I'm using a new Hornady full length resizing die with the zip spindle on a Redding T-7 turret press (built like a tank). I have an L.E. Wilson case trimmer and I trimmed all cases to the trim to length of 2.005" before I did the first load. For my recent reloads I willl measure or use a feeler gauge to see if there is variation from case to case. From what I could feel and eyeball, they looked to be sticking out by about the same amount and my breech closes like it always has (rather than with the difficulty I experienced with my first batch of reloads).  I am using once fired winchester cases which I kept from all the power points I have fired through the same gun; but of course not all of the powerpoints came from the same lot as I purchased boxes at different times from different stores. I do understand the concept of being consistant and how that can impact accuracy. I haven't started sorting brass as I'm just trying to understand the basics of reloading, but maybe that's one of the basics. I am keeping track of my reloaded brass so i know the number of times I've trimmed and loaded each lot. I have an RCBS 10-10 beam scale and I weigh every charge. If the sizing die is set and not moved during the process of reloading, and if the brass was similar and had been trimmed consistantly, shouldn't they all chamber the same? Or to put it another way, if my sizing die is tight as I can make to the shell holder, and even after that, the cases still stick out .001 how do I get the next batch flush? 

I think if everyone took the time to do this...there wouldn't be but a fraction of folks complaining so much about these little inexpensive rifles...and more people really liking them.

If I sound like I'm complaining it certainly isn't my intent. If I didn't like these guns I wouldn't have just purchased another one and I wouldn't have spent well over 100 hours just on this gun. If I was not completely convinced that it could be made to shoot better I'd have stopped when my groups dropped from 4" to 2". Don't confuse curiosity and the quest for more accuracy and understanding with complaining. I love my kids but I don't like everything about them. A side thought, How are you able to return ammo? I thought most stores do not allow ammo returns.

[usherj]

How do these rifles handle fire-formed cases (in the rifle's chamber) that have been neck sized only? That would take care of the shoulder to breech face (headspace) dimension, assuming the chambers are pretty concentric. 

[Mac11700]

myarmor:

Thanks for the kind words...I appreciate it

If I sound like I'm complaining it certainly isn't my intent. If I didn't like these guns I wouldn't have just purchased another one and I wouldn't have spent well over 100 hours just on this gun. If I was not completely convinced that it could be made to shoot better I'd have stopped when my groups dropped from 4" to 2". Don't confuse curiosity and the quest for more accuracy and understanding with complaining. I love my kids but I don't like everything about them. A side thought, How are you able to return ammo? Huh I thought most stores do not allow ammo returns.

northjdr...I never said you were complaining specifically..so don't assume I meant you personally...We have many people reading these forums...some make comments on them..some don't..It was a general statement I added to what I posted...and comes from being here helping others as much as I can..knowing full well...more than just you will be reading this....You've have gone further than what many here have done in the quest for accuracy...You've ask pertinent questions and tried to follow along the best you can...For this I applaud you...Now..let's try to go further..

If the sizing die is set and not moved during the process of reloading, and if the brass was similar and had been trimmed consistently, shouldn't they all chamber the same? Or to put it another way, if my sizing die is tight as I can make to the shell holder, and even after that, the cases still stick out .001 how do I get the next batch flush?

OK...a couple points for you to take into consideration...first off...not all brass will have exact dimension...ergo...your rims can have different thickness too..A couple thousands on the rim..can mean your cases aren't exactly the same..You can see this if you measure each case for a lot of 20-40..some will be off...In a bolt gun..it won't matter near as much as in a Handi..The lock up on these rifles are a friction fit..Were as on a bolt gun, it is a camming action of the bolt that closes it...and you can cam a shell into a chamber easier...Yes..you will notice it by the pressure of the bolt handle..but... when you slam the rifle smartly to close the Handi..you don't notice it unless the gun won't close...or it takes repeated attempts to close it..Also...since this action has inherent flexing because it is a 2 piece design..your accuracy will suffer because of it................I measure each case...and I visually inspect each case...This is a single shot...not a repeater...I do not consider any of my Handi rifles as just a plinker...like say a 22...but...if I were shooting a bunch of rim fire ammo...I would get a rim thickness indicator and measure them too...If I just want to get rid of ammo...I'll use up what's left over of those that don't fit perfectly...then full length size them..then fire form them for the next time...

Your Wilson case trimmer (I have one just like for 308 )..makes it cut from a measurement off the datum line in the middle of the shoulder..and you would think that the cases to be the exact length afterwards..normally this is true..but since we are talking the overall length being cut from 1 case that may have been undersized ..(like having the shoulder set back further to begin with or not far enough )....not all of your cases will be exact with this type of trimmer...This is one of the main reasons I measure each case as I go..... and prefer to use a case trimmer that measures off the primer pocket when using different brass or if I suspect there may be a problem in the sizing...We aren't talking of loading 100 cases at one time..but 20-40...If I have problems with a barrel..I work in small numbers with different variables...( case lengths..bullet seating depth..bullet tension..powder charges..different primers..) before loading large batches...

Now..you can also have your sizing die screwed all the way down and still have problems...not all shell holders are the exact same..various manufactures have various sizes...You can try shimming your shell holder up..or if to large either buy a different manufacture or buy a set from Redding that has various sizes taller or lower to get the perfect amount you need...If that still doesn't work...a simple call to either Hornady or Redding will solve your problem...They both have great technicians that will assist you in mating up the proper parts to make it work...

Lastly...most stores I frequent will allow you to return ammo provided all of them are in the box and if the box isn't damaged...I keep track of all the lot numbers and if any 1 batch is bad..I also call the companies and frequently return ammo to them for replacement as well...So far...Remington is the only one in a long time that is reluctant to correct a well known and documented problem they have been having...If I use their product...I will drop either the empty case into the chamber..or the loaded round to check them...If I know I am returning them to a store..I will not mark the cases or loaded rounds in anyway..but sort them outside the factory container keeping them completely pristine...I'm not mixing different lots from different stores and returning a mishmash of different ammo...If they have only 1 or 2 boxes of different  lots..I'll keep both boxes if I have too..but won't hunt with it..or shoot for groups with it if there are many off sized ones in it...

I haven't started sorting brass as I'm just trying to understand the basics of reloading, but maybe that's one of the basics.

Well...there are many trains of thought on this...Some folks do...Some folks don't...Some very good people have tried to prove or disprove this vary thing...and all I can say is...If you want to..then try it...then see if it matters to you right now...Later on...once you have all the basics down pat...and your reloads are shooting to the same point consistently...then by all means try it...I would rather see a new Hand loader measure the over all length of his cases before seeing him weighing each and everyone...but...since you mentioned it...If you have access to a good digital scale ( weighing cases on a beam scale is a pain...been there...done that..)...then by all means try weighing 20-40 of them and see what you get...Most of us that do weigh and sort..do it in groups of 1 grain... or...we start with a high end brand of brass...like Lapua...(which is some of the best you can get a hold of) but still weigh and sort it...into a lot fewer piles mind you...I'm not telling to rush out and buy some just yet..but..if you want to try the best..expect to pay a-lot more for it... Hope that clears up some for you..

usherj:

Provided the chambers are concentric and one doesn't have a large frame barrel gap..they will handle neck sizing just fine...but  not as many times as a good bolt gun...I get 4 firings on new brass with my chambers before I have to bump the shoulder back..

Mac

[northjdr]

Wow, thanks alot. Didn't mean to get all defensive on you. A couple of points. I don't know why the manufacturers of  various peices of reloading equipment can't write a decent piece of instructions with pictures you can actully see. I would think they would want to do this solely for liability reasons. But anyway,  I'm not sure I understand why my case trimmer wouldn't trim them to the same length. I wonder if we have different trimmers. The case is held by a shell holder collar that surrounds the shell but the shell holder has nothing to do with the overall length because the rear of the case directly rests against the end of length setting screw/rod and the cutter head is pressed against against the mouth of the case. As long as I have made sure the screw/rod is set (ie not moving) and as long as I use proper cutting technique and allow the cutter to completely do it's job, I should have cases that are the exact length every time. 
Next, I randomly chambered 5 cases from my current reloading lot and found all the cases to be flush or very near flush with the end. I have a digital micronmeter but this is a difficlut place to measure even with the hole measrement end. Only one of the cases stuck out a little but it was less than the thickness of my thinnest feeler gauge(.002") We'll see how they shoot. The more I think about it I don't think my poi shifts are case related because I think the shift would be more random or back and forth.  On almost 1/2 of my groups I get a POI shift on the 3rd shot. So I am going to do several groups with 3-4 minutes between shots to lessen the impact of heating. I removed some of the silicone bedding last night (I made the bedding areas smaller. I was looking at your pictures and it looked like I perhaps had more than necessary. I figured this would also allow the barrel to cool slightly better.
There is no doubt that many of you that post here have forgotten more than I know about these rifles but I'm gaining on you.
On a side note, a friend of mine was surprised that I would purchase another H&R (.223 Ultra Varmint) after all of my challenges with my .308. I told him that I expect the H&R .223 to shoot sub-moa and to give my Savage bolt a run for it's money. I'm crossing my fingers and hoping I got a shooter right out of the box. If not, I know what to do. Thanks again. I need to get to work to bill some hours to pay for my hobby.

[Mac11700]

No..we have the same case trimmer by Wilson..and the shell holder as you call it..encompasses the shell around the shoulder area..If the screw is set off 1 case say the case with the + .002" difference in the shoulder...then the cases that are normal or within specs will be -.002 shorter than the first ones...and then if you trim another case with a difference of -.002" then it will be -.004" shorter yet..The Wilson trimmer is dependent on the shoulder junction being in the proper place to work correctly.

As I told you before my bedding was even..and if you put a ten pound weight on the barrel..yours wouldn't be...but make no mistake about it..If your cases aren't sized the same each and everytime...no matter if everything else is perfect on the rifle...your POI will be off. in a Handi...How much will it be off?... In your rifle I can't say without doing the work on it for you,loading it,and shooting it..I can say that in factory ammo with the same problem..it can vary as much as 3-4" in group size...or less...I've proved that to myself on every Handi I have ever owned...and to others who have tried my suggestions of sorting factory ammo for this defect...I purposely haven't loaded ammo to do this..but I have had this occur to me as well...thru faulty equipment,components,or being in a hurry...I wouldn't be telling folks what I've found to be truthful if I hadn't seen this on numerous occasions...

I don't know why the manufacturers of  various peices of reloading equipment can't write a decent piece of instructions with pictures you can actully see.

Well they do...
http://www.hornady.com/shop/?page=shop/browse&category_id=430292431fba0690c8ce452562adce7b

 on-line...
http://www.rcbs.com/default.asp?menu=1&s1=9


There are many others too...David Tubbs has one for RCBS on high power center fires available at http://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=store&page=item&stock_num=0095&CFTOKEN=17407511&CFID=936117

While not a manufacture..this is from the American Gunsmithing Institute....and is pretty complete..http://www.americangunsmith.com/video.php?type=hi&vid=AGI321Handloading_clip_Hi.swf&id=64


Hope that helps..Good Luck...and Have a Great 1



Mac

[northjdr]

No..we have the same case trimmer by Wilson..and the shell holder as you call it..encompasses the shell around the shoulder area..If the screw is set off 1 case say the case with the + .002" difference in the shoulder...then the cases that are normal or within specs will be -.002 shorter than the first ones...and then if you trim another case with a difference of -.002" then it will be -.004" shorter yet..The Wilson trimmer is dependent on the shoulder junction being in the proper place to work correctly.

Well, I have to confess I still don't understand what you're saying regarding the case trimming. But maybe I'm not doing properly. Its probably one of those situations where we could clear up the missunderstanding in 30 seconds if I could show you what I was doing and you could tell me what I'm doing wrong. My wife does this with me all the time.  The "case holder" (Wilson's term) encompasses the shell. The shell sticks out from both ends of the case holder and the case holder simply provides a solid base from which to hold the shell. The case holder sole function from what I can tell is to simply hold the case. During the cutting process the shell base rests directly against the adjustable screw/rod of the trimmer,  and while I am applying pressure to hold the base against the adjustable screw rod, I push the cutter onto the mouth of the shell and spin the cutter until it no longer removes material. As long as the shell is protruding from both ends of the case holder it doesn't matter where the shoulder juncture is or how it holds it. Actually, the shell only needs to protrude from the case holder on the mouth end as the screw/rod of the trimmer will directly contact the shell base even if the shell base is recessed into the shell holder.So what am I missing here?
I am not disputing that the shoulder differences can effect accuracy and it certainly may be a factor, what I am saying is that the almost predictable nature of my POI shifts (first 2 shots within .5", next 3 shots shift 2" up) causes me to think more in terms of barell issues because I think that if it was the cases or my latching technique it would be more random. (up down down up..) rather than (d d, u u u...dd,uuu).

Well they do...
http://www.hornady.com/shop/?page=shop/browse&category_id=430292431fba0690c8ce452562adce7b

 on-line...
http://www.rcbs.com/default.asp?menu=1&s1=9


There are many others too...David Tubbs has one for RCBS on high power center fires available at http://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=store&page=item&stock_num=0095&CFTOKEN=17407511&CFID=936117

While not a manufacture..this is from the American Gunsmithing Institute....and is pretty complete..http://www.americangunsmith.com/video.php?type=hi&vid=AGI321Handloading_clip_Hi.swf&id=64

As to the manuels, I was refurring o the instructions included with the equipment not in other publications that I may choose to purchase. If it weren't for the information I was able to get online I would not have been able to work the equipment poperly.The instructions with my Hornady dies, RCBS hand Primer, RCBS Powder Thrower, the Wilson case trimmer and last but not least, my Crony Beta Master were substandard IMHO.

[Mac11700]

You have a PM..

Mac

[safetysheriff]

The "case holder" (Wilson's term) encompasses the shell. The shell sticks out from both ends of the case holder and the case holder simply provides a solid base from which to hold the shell. The case holder sole function from what I can tell is to simply hold the case. During the cutting process the shell base rests directly against the adjustable screw/rod of the trimmer,  and while I am applying pressure to hold the base against the adjustable screw rod, I push the cutter onto the mouth of the shell and spin the cutter until it no longer removes material.

north'

the part you posted re:"while I am applying pressure to hold the base against the adjustable screw rod...." reminds me of the inconsistent pressure i must have been using with an old Hornady/Pacific trimmer.   if you apply differing amounts of pressure to the various cases you are trimming your results will vary.

i bought an RCBS TRIM-PRO which has GREATLY reduced the 'tolerance' (actually spelled.....s-l-o-p!) in my case trimming.   my case lengths are easily more consistent now.   

take a look at the ease of using a Trim Pro.     you may want to get away from "applying pressure" by hand to something.

just a thought,

ss'   

                            I PUT THE VERBAGE INSIDE THE 'QUOTE BOX'.      SORRY ABOUT THAT.
And Tim fixed it for ya!!

[northjdr]

Thanks for the information. since I just purchased the Wilson and 3 shell holders I stick with it a bit. If I have problems I can remove the human from picture by adding some sort of clamp or jig.  On Midway, no-one had much bad to say a bout the Wilson trimmer. I haven't noticed any variance in length and I do spot check my trimming.

[safetysheriff]

Tim'

you and Mac' are Super Moderators.   thanks for covering for my mistake.


north'

the thought also occurs to me that if you overly tighten the die down into the press that you might 'spring' the press.   i don't remember whose press you are using......but i know they can be damaged.   if a properly trimmed piece of brass won't fit a chamber .... like you had before ... then it was right to screw in the die a little at a time to bump the shoulder back.  i had to do it with a buddy's 7mm Mag'.   however, as soon as the brass fits the rifle's chamber you've got all the re-sizing you need without abusing any of the tools.....as long as it is trimmed to a proper length afterward if it's needed. 

respectfully,

ss' 

[northjdr]

thanks. I don't think I over tighened it. It was too loose before. I have a Redding T-7 Turret press