Author Topic: Purpose and function of scope rail set screw? Just curious  (Read 918 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline northjdr

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 125
  • Gender: Male
Purpose and function of scope rail set screw? Just curious
« on: January 11, 2007, 05:43:26 AM »
My .308 and .223 both have a cantilevered scope rail. Near the end of the rail is a set screw. I understand that the screw should be .0015" off the barrel. I have some questions. If it's touching the rail will this affect accuracy? What if  the gap is 1/8", will this cause problemss? I guess I don't understand the function of this screw in the first place. The rail is NOT very flexible and even a fairly heavy scope wouldn't flex it except possibly on firing. You certainly wouldn't want it to flex before firing. So it appears that it's sole function would be to stablize the rail after firing. Has anyone removed this screw or replaced it with rubber plug or bedded the rail end or cut it off completely? The earth isn't hanging in the balance on this question, but i'm curious.
Inches make champions.

Vince Lombardi

Offline northjdr

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 125
  • Gender: Male
Re: Purpose and function of scope rail set screw? Just curious
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2007, 05:46:44 AM »
Error, I meant to ask if the screw is touching the "barrel" will it affect accuracy. it is of course touching the rail because it rests in the rail.
Inches make champions.

Vince Lombardi

Offline Mac11700

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6875
Re: Purpose and function of scope rail set screw? Just curious
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2007, 05:48:54 AM »

It's there for the really heavy objective type scopes...
Quote
If it's touching the rail will this affect accuracy?
..It will certainly cause it to be off as the barrel heats up...Some folks prefer the shorter standard rail..I like the longer ones because it gives you an extra slot for positioning the scope rings..

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline quickdtoo

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (149)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43301
  • Gender: Male
Re: Purpose and function of scope rail set screw? Just curious
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2007, 05:55:47 AM »
If you're referring to the Ultra scope rail, the set screw is there to support large scopes in case they get bumped, the .0015" gap is enough that barrel heat isn't going to cause it to touch the barrel and cause the front of the rail to rise with barrel heat, yet close enough to bottom out on the barrel if the scope gets whacked.

The rail can be bedded under the overhang, but I don't and prefer to use the standard rail with the forward ring mounted on the barrel supported part of the rail if I have the choice.

Tim


"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Fred M

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2362
    • Fred The Reloader and Wildcatter
Re: Purpose and function of scope rail set screw? Just curious
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2007, 06:43:07 AM »
 northjdr.
Some time ago on this forum I proofed mathematicly that tighning the screw down to the barrel will not effect accuracy. Since the chamber end of the barrel expands evenly with heat not just under the scew.

What I did on a 25-06 is bent the scope rail down about a 1/16" and then brought it back up level with the screw. This has a stabilizing effect on chamber vibration. Absolutely no ill effects.

A heavy scope bell has no way to overcome the structural resistance of the rail. It takes a few good whacks  to bent that rail down. The idea of a 0.0015 clearance is nothing but a pipe dream.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline Mac11700

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6875
Re: Purpose and function of scope rail set screw? Just curious
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2007, 07:34:16 AM »


Sorry Fred... The clearance of .0015" was given to me by the Gordon at NEF customer service..and was posted as such...and as far as accuracy goes..I tried it on all of my barrels...since I've used nothing but these rails on all of mine in.. 243..25-06..270...30-30...308's..30-06....and 45-70....and also on my rechambered 338-06A-Square..it does affect things..Some more than others...depends a-lot on the set-up..and barrel..

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline Fred M

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2362
    • Fred The Reloader and Wildcatter
Re: Purpose and function of scope rail set screw? Just curious
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2007, 05:38:06 PM »
Mac.
You never tried my method you have nothing to loose. You can always return to the magical 0.0015" gap. You have lot more faith in what the factory hands out.

Bend the rail down and bring it back level with the screw, and see. Of course the rail should be solid befor bending the end. Make sure the two set screws are tight on both sides.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline northjdr

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 125
  • Gender: Male
Re: Purpose and function of scope rail set screw? Just curious
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2007, 06:51:44 PM »
I'd have a hard time purposely bending a rail just to try your theory. But the rail hanging out there in space not the most attractive design ever concieved. I wonder how many people check to see what their gap really is. I didn't check mine until I was removing the rail and remounting it,  only then did I notice the screw was loose...not my only loose screw.
Inches make champions.

Vince Lombardi

Offline Mac11700

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6875
Re: Purpose and function of scope rail set screw? Just curious
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2007, 07:41:57 PM »
Mac.
You never tried my method you have nothing to loose. You can always return to the magical 0.0015" gap. You have lot more faith in what the factory hands out.

Bend the rail down and bring it back level with the screw, and see. Of course the rail should be solid befor bending the end. Make sure the two set screws are tight on both sides.

Fred...There's nothing magical about the gap Gordon told me...It just what he recommended...I'm not about to bend anything on my remaining rifles to prove or disprove your astute mathematical prowess...What I have done for all of these past few years has worked exceptionally well for me...or for anyone else who has followed the company's recommendations...further more I submit to you that I have not had near the problems with all of my rifles that you have had with one...Nor...have I had to go to the extreams you have to correct a non-existent problem with mine...In other words...I ain't about to try to fix something that isn't broken cause I'll probably mess it up ;) ;) :D

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline aulrich

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 678
Re: Purpose and function of scope rail set screw? Just curious
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2007, 04:53:20 AM »
Though you can easily over tighten the darn thing if your not careful (or a dough head like me), doh! I sat there and wondered why am I 2 feet high. I just pull mine out and called it good. My superlight with the weaver base seems to hang out even further.
The second mouse gets the cheese

Offline bufflobob

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 50
Re: Purpose and function of scope rail set screw? Just curious
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2007, 09:05:28 AM »
    A while back I also faced this with mounting a scope on my Buff. Classic. I have to say I agree with Fred and others - I don't think the small gap is the best setup.

    I carried it further, taking a T shaped nut with matching # 8 machine screw from local hardware, and used JB epoxy weld to anchor the floating end onto the barrel. Used the T nut as it gave more surface area to epoxy onto barrel to stand up to recoil. I just purchased a heavy scope for the 45-70 and just didn't like that cantelever floating. Using a weaver # 82 scope rail, first drill from the top side the cantelever end for the # 8 screw. Then from the underside counterdrilled part way with larger size bit to allow the threaded T nut to extend up part way into the rail, to keep more lenght of threads. Also bent the base flange of the T nut to somewhat follow the contour of the barrel where it is epoxied. Of course used release agent on under side of scope rail - furniture wax,  -- also on threads of # 8 machine screw, should I want to return to my iron sights. Carefully laid out masking tape on rifle to keep overflow off unwanted area. Used fine sandpaper to remove blueing and degreased area for T lug nut, also same treatment to base of T lug nut itself. Mixed up the epoxy after test fitting and set rail assembly in place with the three rear factory and the new front # 8 all tight.

   Maybe sounds a bit drastic, but if you want you can later use a small file and shape the epoxy  and use flat black paint to make the new attachment look somewhat "factory". On mine its really not noticable, and now the scope is totally solid, the way I feel it should be. Maybe if someone wants I'll dig out the digital camera and post a pic. Worked for me.  ;)

Happy hunting and shooting. ---  Bob.

Offline Fred M

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2362
    • Fred The Reloader and Wildcatter
Re: Purpose and function of scope rail set screw? Just curious
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2007, 09:56:44 AM »
Mac.
I never fix anything that does not need fixing. The only other thing I have to say since you never had any problems with your Handis is because you don't shoot them as much as I do.

If you do you will find a gap developing because the underlug is setting back, your hammer spring will give up the ghost,
Your latch spring will get so weak and let the latch slide, the firing pin will break, and the forearm will rattle loose.

Right now my 257 has a dead latch spring and I just fixed the set back again for the third time. Since all these things are only as you intimate in my vivid imagination I just have to quit shooting these rifles to rid them of the problems.

In that first 25-06 I fired more rounds trying to find a load and pin down the problem then most people would shoot in 10 years. Besides a 25-06 is a complete waste if it can only shoot an 1-1/2" at 100 and shoots 100ft less with any load than an up to snuff rifle barrel. Or did I imagine that too?

Of course in your wisdom you would never admit that. Like I said before you are always right. It would not be any other way. Anybody with a bit of moxy would see that the 0.0015 gap is strictly for the birds, and no it was not designed to lower the impact of the bullet by cranking the rail up.

Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline Mac11700

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6875
Re: Purpose and function of scope rail set screw? Just curious
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2007, 11:18:06 AM »


Fred...Please go back and read what I said was...I said I have never had the problems in all of mine that you had in 1 of yours...Don't you think I know full well what you have gone through on it?I am not indicating this is a figment of your imagination...and if you are reading it as such..don't... I really can't help what has happened on yours...and I don't have the tools to do anywhere close to what you have done..so..if mine are working...I'm leaving them alone...If I ever get one that falls apart as your had...I wouldn't keep it...Further..don't even think I don't shoot a-lot with the same frame and barrel...take a look at what I am shooting out of a rebored 25-06..that had well over 500 rounds put thru it...prior to the work done on it...and now I have an additional 600 thru it as it is...I've never had to weld up the lug on this barrel...move the barrel back...shim it up..or do anything remotely close to all the things you've done...Also I don't shoot 52,000 cup loads thru it...All of my loads have been near or at the max the case & round put out...all of this with a standard ejector barrel...My lock up is exactly the same as the day I got it..This is one of my main reasons for being pissed at the company...If I can have this luck with them...everyone should be able to...I agree 10,000,000% with your assessments of a 1-1/2" capable rifle...I won't have one in my safe that won't do better than that...I don't care if it is a $250 rifle...or a $2500 rifle...Your findings differ from mine...namely because of the differences in the rifles...THIS SHOULD NOT BE NORMAL....now should it...I'm not ignorant...neither are you...Perhaps we have the widest extreams NEF has produced...has that ever occurred to you...it has me...

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline bufflobob

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 50
Re: Purpose and function of scope rail set screw? Just curious
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2007, 04:03:40 PM »
Further to bedding the front of scope rail to barrel. Hopefully this pic of scope rail mount comes thru...note I haven't painted the epoxy black yet.