50 cal project ideas

[Grizz_]

The discussion about the .500 S&W being the equivilant of the 50/70 started me off on the dangerous thinking process.

Is there enough metal in the BC 45/70 barrel to rebore and re-rifle to .51 groove to groove? It would seem like it should work if they can use that blank for the S&W.

That way I could build a 50/90 and shoot 550g to something over 600g bullets at low pressures. Anyone done that with the H&R?

Regards,

Grizz

[quickdtoo]

My .500 barrel measures .890" at the muzzle, a .45-70 barrel is ~.790", so the .500 is definately a heavier blank. Sounds like a great idea, tho if it would work. A BC barrel  measures .850" at 22" if that would work.

Tim

[Grizz_]

My .500 barrel measures .890" at the muzzle, a .45-70 barrel is ~.790", so the .500 is definately a heavier blank. Sounds like a great idea, tho if it would work. A BC barrel  measures .850" at 22" if that would work.

Tim

thanks Tim

I wonder if it's possible to get hold of an "un-drilled" or, blank blank? You know, before it's turned down past the chamber area and reamed and rifled. I wonder where they get their barrels.

I'm envisioning a bull barrel 50-90 on the SB2 frame. Tasty?

  Grizz

[Grizz_]

Tim,

I wonder if it could be as simple as rechambering the .500 barrel. 22" is plenty long for a starter gun in 50/90. What's the actual land to land diameter of your barrel?

Grizz

[dubber123]

If I'm correct the 500 S&W shoots a .500 bullet, (a little bigger for lead), and the 50-70 is .510, so I don't think just a simple rechamber will work.  For cast, I shoot .513 in my 50-70, and thats quite a squeeze in a .500 barrel.  I do wonder how thin is too thin in a 50-70, my T/C 50-70 isn't very thick at all and hasn't batted an eye at some pretty stout loads.

[Smokin Joe]

Why don't you just size down the .50-90 case mouth in an S&W die and shoot the .500's? Hornady makes a 350 and a 500 that should cover just about anything.

[billy_56081]

How large does a bore diamiter have to get before the BATF considers it a destructive device? I was thinking it is over .50 cal. I probably am wrong, but have wondered just where the line is? I had thought the BOYS anti tank gun was considered a destructive device in its original caliber .55 but was legal if rebarreled to .50 browning.

[quickdtoo]

Tim,

I wonder if it could be as simple as rechambering the .500 barrel. 22" is plenty long for a starter gun in 50/90. What's the actual land to land diameter of your barrel?

Grizz

I'll slug it and let ya know if someone hasn't already done it.

Tim

[Grizz_]

I'll slug it and let ya know if someone hasn't already done it.

No need Tim, I figured it out.

The old .50s are sized from .510 to .513. The S&Ws are sized .50. So I guess a .510 should fire OK in the S&W barrel, and the chamber should be able to accomodate a 50/90 reamer.

According to Chuck Hawks article the 50/90 case is .565 at the base and .528 at the neck. The 500 S&W is .556 at the base and .526 at the neck, it's straight walled. I'm guessing the rim is thicker on the 50/90 too. So someone with the proper tools could easily cut the black powder chamber. There is one question though, because the 50/90 case is 2.5" long: is the chamber area long enough, or does it taper to the barrel diameter too soon to allow the longer chamber.  Still digging.

:)

[quickdtoo]

The chamber swell is the same as other barrels, straight for 3½" before the taper starts. I just slugged it, bore is .501" in the groove and .495" at the lands.

Tim

[knight0334]

How large does a bore diamiter have to get before the BATF considers it a destructive device? I was thinking it is over .50 cal. I probably am wrong, but have wondered just where the line is? I had thought the BOYS anti tank gun was considered a destructive device in its original caliber .55 but was legal if rebarreled to .50 browning.

They say "over 50 caliber". 

The bore on a 50 caliber rifle should be .500" and the grove .510", despite whatever size of bullet you try to swage down the barrel.  The ATF measures the bore of the rifle, not the diameter of the bullet or the grove.  They know that true rifle 50 calibers use .510" bullets and don't seem to have a problem with it. 

[Grizz_]

Thanks Tim,

It's an actual candidate then. Fantastic.

It would be a hoot if the batf suddenly decided that a 125 year old buffalo rifle is a destructive device!!

Probably ruin a lot of peoples day.

Not to mention all the .577 shooters, and the .63 cal and .7something muzzle loaders. Destructive eh? I should hope so!! Outlaw Brown Bess? ROFLOL

Grizz

[Grizz_]

Why don't you just size down the .50-90 case mouth in an S&W die and shoot the .500's? Hornady makes a 350 and a 500 that should cover just about anything.

That's an interesting idea, thanks. I think I was just trying to see if I could make a Big 50 BPCR on the H&R frame. Maybe the factory will be smitten with the idea and do the hard work for us.

Ballistically there's not much I can't achieve with the 45/70/525 and smokeless powder, except shoot in black powder matches.

[Smokin Joe]

Just FYI According to ATF:

The following ammunition was classified as curios or relics prior to August 1986.

1. FOREIGN MILITARY RIFLE CARTRIDGES

    * .557 x 450 cal. Martini Henry
    * 6.5 x 54Rmm Mannlicher (Dutch and Rumanian)
    * 6.5 x 55mm Swedish Mauser
    * 7.62 x 54Rmm Russian
    * 7.92mm anti-tank cartridge for the German
    * PzB 38, PzB 39, & Gr 39 anti-tank rifle.
    * 7.92mm Kurz (7.92 x 33mm), as originally produced prior to 1946.
    * 8 x 50Rmm Lebel
    * 8 x 53mm Japanese Murata
    * 8 x 56Rmm Portuguese Kropacheck, mfd. in Austria, for the Govt. of Portugal.
    * 9.5 x 60mm Turkish Mauser
    * 10.15 x 63mm Serbian Mauser
    * 10.4 x 47Rmm Italian Vefterli M70
    * 11 x 50mm Belgian Albini M67/72
    * 11 x 53mm Belgian Comblain M71
    * 11 x 60 Japanese Murata
    * 11.15 x 60Rmm (.43) Mauser
    * 11.3 x 50mm Beaumont M71
    * 11.4 x 50mm Brazilian Comblain M74
    * 11.43 x 55mm Turkish
    * 11.7 x 51 mm Danish Remington
    * 6.5 x 52mm Italian (Mannlicher-Carcano)
    * 6.5 x 58mm Portuguese Vergueiro
    * 7.5 x 54mm Swiss Schmidt-Rubin
    * 7.65mm Argentine Navy Match 7.92mm anti-tank cartridge for the Polish (Marosczek) anti-tank rifle described as a cal. 7.92mm, Gr 39 Granatbuchse.
    * 8 x 50Rmm Austrian Mannlicher
    * 8 x 52Rmm Siamese Mauser, mfd. in Japan, for the Government of Siam
    * 8 x 58Rmm Danish Krag
    * 8 x 60mm Guedes M85 Portuguese
    * 10.15 x 61mm Jarman
    * 10.4 x 38Rmm Swiss Vefteril M69/81
    * 10.75 x 58mm Russian Berdan
    * 11 x 52mm Netherlands Beaumont M71/78
    * 11 x 59mm French Gras
    * 11.15 x 58mm Austrian Werndl M77
    * 11.15 x 58mm (.43) Spanish Remington
    * 11.4 x 50mm Austrian Werndl M73
    * 11.43 x 50mm (.43) Egyptian Remington
    * 11.5 x 57mm (.43) Spanish Reformado
    * 12.11 x 44mm Remington M67 (Norway & Sweden)

2. EUROPEAN SPORTING RIFLE CARTRIDGES

    * 6 x 29.5mm Stahl
    * 6 x 58mm Forester (Rimless and Rimmed)
    * 6.5 x 48mm Sauer
    * 7 x 57Rmm Mauser
    * 6 x 57mm Mauser
    * 6.5 x 27mm
    * 6.5 x 53.5mm Daudeteau

3. BRITISH SPORTING RIFLE CARTRIDGES

    * .255 Rook Rifle
    * .369 Purdey Nitro Express
    * .375 Rimless Wesley Richards Nitro
    * .400/360 Purdey Flanged
    * .450 Nitro Express
    * .450 No. 2 Nitro Express
    * .476 Nitro Express
    * .600 Nitro Express
    * .360 No. 2 Nitro Express
    * .375/.303 Axite
    * .400/.360 Wesley Richards
    * .450 Black Powder Express
    * .450 Nitro for Black Powder Express
    * .475 No. 2 Jeffrey
    * .500 Black Powder Express

4. PISTOL AND REVOLVER CARTRIDGES

    * 2.7mm Kolibri Auto
    * 4.25mm Liliput Auto
    * 5mm Clement Auto
    * 6.5mm Bergmann, standard rimless 7mm Baby Nambu
    * .30/7.65mm Borchardt
    * .38 Long Colt
    * .44 Smith & Wesson (Martin Primer)
    * 3mm Kolibri Auto
    * 5mm Bergmann
    * 5.5 Velo Dog Short
    * 6.5mm Bergmann (without extractor groove)
    * 7.65mm Roth-Sauer
    * .35 Smith & Wesson Auto
    * .44 Colt-Remington (Martin Primer)
    * .450 Long Revolver
    * .50 Remington (M71 Army)
    * 9.8 Auto Colt
    * 11mm German Service Revolver
    * 11.75mm Montenegrin Revolver
    * .577 Pistol
    * 11mm French Ordnance Revolver
    * 11.25 Norwegian Raufoss
    * (.45 ACP), pre-1946.

5. U.S. RIMFIRE CARTRIDGES

    * .22 Rimfire cal. cartridges with experimental aluminum/steel cartridge cases.
    * .267 Rimfire cal. government experimental cartridge mfd. by Remington.
    * .32 Extra Short
    * .32 rimfire
    * .35 Allen
    * .38 Extra Long
    * .44 Short
    * .44 Long
    * .46 Long
    * .50 Peabody Musket
    * .50-70 Government
    * .54 Ballard
    * .56-50 Spencer
    * .56-52 Spencer, Tapered
    * .58 Joslyn Carbine
    * .58 Miller
    * .25 rimfire
    * .25 Short
    * .30 Long
    * .30 Short
    * .32 Long Rifle
    * .32 Extra Long
    * .38 rimfire
    * .41 Long
    * .44 Extra Long
    * .46 Extra Long
    * .46 Short
    * .50 Remington Navy
    * .52-70 Sharps
    * .56-46 Spencer
    * .56-52 Spener, Bottleneck
    * .56-56 Spencer
    * .58 Gatling Gun
    * .58 Mont Storm (Also known as .61 cal)

6. U.S. CENTERFIRE RIFLE CARTRIDGES

    * .22 Extra Long (Maynard)
    * .22-15-50 Stevens
    * .25-21 Stevens
    * .28 cal. centerfire experimental, mfd.at Frankford Arsenal.
    * .30-06 cal. cartridges mfd. by commercial manufacturers under government contract with headstamps indicating use for Palma Matches.
    * .30-30 Super X, Winchester "Bicentennial 76."
    * .30-30 Wesson
    * .308 Winchester, marked "Palma Match"
    * .32 Long Rifle
    * .32-30 Remington
    * .32-35 Maynard
    * .32-40 Winchester John Wayne .32-40 Bullard
    * .35 Winchester Self Loading
    * .38 Long
    * .38-35 Stevens
    * .38-45 Bullard
    * .38-50 Maynard
    * .38-50 Remington-Hepburn
    * .38-70 Winchester
    * .38-90 Winchester Express
    * .40-110 Winchester Express
    * .40-50 Sharps (Necked)
    * .405 Winchester
    * .40-60 Marlin
    * .40-60 Maynard 1882
    * .40-63 Ballard
    * .40-70 Sharps (Straight)
    * .40-70 Peabody "What Cheer"
    * .40-70 Remington
    * .40-72
    * .40-82
    * .40-90 Peabody "What Cheer"
    * .40-90 Sharps (Necked)
    * .40-90 Ballard
    * .44 Henry
    * .44 Extra Long Ballard
    * .44 Evans Long
    * .44-100 Wesson
    * .44-40 Extra Long
    * .44-60 Winchester
    * .44-70 Maynard
    * .44-77 Remington
    * .44-85 Wesson
    * .44-90 Remington (Stright 2.6" case)
    * .44-95 Peabody "What Cheer"
    * .45-50 Peabody (Sporting)
    * .40-65 Ballard Everlasting
    * .40-70 Sharps (Necked)
    * .22 Newton (Wildcat)
    * .25.36 Marlin
    * .25-25 Stevens
    * .28-30-120 Stevens
    * .30-03 Government (Note: Also known as Springfield)
    * .30-06 Commemorative, commemorating 50 years of the .30-06 cartridge as the standard U.S. service cartridge (headstamped USFA 1906-56).
    * .30-40 Wesson
    * .32 Ballard Extra Long
    * .32 Winchester Self Loading
    * .32-30 Maynard 1882
    * .32-35 Stevens
    * .32-40 Remington
    * .33 WCF
    * .35-40 Maynard
    * .38 Ballard Extra Long
    * .38-40 Remington-Hepburn
    * .38-45 Stevens
    * .38-50 Ballard
    * .38-56
    * .38-72
    * .40 Martin Primed
    * .40-40 Maynard 1882
    * .40-50 Sharps (Straight)
    * .70-150 Winchester
    * .40-70 Ballard
    * .40-70 Winchester
    * .40-75 Ballard
    * .40-85 Ballard
    * .40-90 Sharps (Straight)
    * .40-90 Ballard
    * .42 Martin Primer
    * .44 Wesson Extra Long
    * .44 Long C.F.
    * .44 Evans Short
    * .44-100 Ballard
    * .44-60 Sharps (Necked)
    * .44-60 Peabody "Creedmore"
    * .44-75 Ballard Everlasting
    * .44-77 Sharps
    * .44-90 Remington (Straight)
    * .44-90 Sharps (Necked)
    * .44-100 Remington "Creedmore" (Straight 2-6/10" case)
    * .45-75 Sharps (Straight) Note: Identical to .45-70 Govt. Cartridge
    * .45-70 Van Choate
    * .45-78-475 Wolcoff
    * .45-80 Sharpshooter
    * .45-100 Sharps (Straight)
    * .45-120 Sharps (Straight 3-1/4" case)
    * .50 cal. experimental machine gun cartridge with aluminum cartridge case
    * .50 U.S. Carbine
    * .50-119 Sharps
    * .50-140 Winchester Express
    * .50-50 Maynard
    * .50-90 Sharps
    * .55-100 Maynard
    * .58 U.S. Musket (Berdan)
    * .45-100 Ballard
    * .45-100 Remington
    * .45-125 Winchester
    * .50 Government
    * .50 Remington
    * .50-100 Sharps
    * .50-115 Bullard
    * .50-140 Sharps
    * .50-70 Muske
    * .50-95 Winchester
    * .58 Berdan Carbine
    * .60 cal. experimental cartridge
    * 6mm Lee Navy

7. MISCELLANEOUS CARTRIDGES

    * Duplex cartridges in all calibers with the exception of 7.62mm NATO.
    * All cartridges intended for use in "squeeze bore" firearms; e.g., Gerlach taper bore ammunition.
    * Dardick cartridges (Trounds) in all calibers.



The ATF exempts large caliber if sporting use can be demonstrated, or a ruling already exists.

[billy_56081]

Ok thanks. I've just always wondered about the over .50 cal guns. One thing about this place is there are alot of minds to tap. I figured there was an exhemption in the law somewheres or some gun grabbers under a antigun administation would use the law to take alot of guns.

The Bride of Frenkenstein(Janet Reno) woulda made a grab for sure. I'd hate to wake up next to that.

[Smokin Joe]

Note from ATF today:

"Under Federal law, the possession of a rifle which fires .50-90 Sharps
ammunition would be legal as long as the possessor is not prohibited."