Look out Encore, there's a new kid in town! Knight KP1

[Hammerspur]

That was a Huntsman, which was a muzzleloader.

I have never seen or heard of a 12 gauge Muzzleloading shotgun from H&R the used the 209 primer 25 years ago. I am going to try a search.

The original H&R Co. sold muzzleloaders labeled Huntsman in .58 and .45 cal as well as 12 ga. shotgun... a couple of my friends have owned the latter.

When I encountered the hunter I mentioned in my earlier post, I was carrying my 1st muzzleloader, a .50 cal CVA Hawken. Didn't know much about muzzleloading then, but the guy I was speaking with opened his action and showed me the 209 primer and it's holder... mostly greek to me at the time.
I don't know the source of his primer holder, but from my recollection it looked much like the Hubbard's items I now have in place of the #11 nipples on my .58 & .45 (made from a .45-70 Shikari). May have been a low volume aftermarket piece he found.

Don't think muzzleloading had anywhere near the following then as it does now.

[slave]

I think the new knight will find a home. It is a proven concept. As we have posted NEF, TC, H&R have all done it in the past.
They may even advertise it as a "gun for all seasons". 

[Redhawk1]

That was a Huntsman, which was a muzzleloader.

I have never seen or heard of a 12 gauge Muzzleloading shotgun from H&R the used the 209 primer 25 years ago. I am going to try a search.

The original H&R Co. sold muzzleloaders labeled Huntsman in .58 and .45 cal as well as 12 ga. shotgun... a couple of my friends have owned the latter.

When I encountered the hunter I mentioned in my earlier post, I was carrying my 1st muzzleloader, a .50 cal CVA Hawken. Didn't know much about muzzleloading then, but the guy I was speaking with opened his action and showed me the 209 primer and it's holder... mostly greek to me at the time.
I don't know the source of his primer holder, but from my recollection it looked much like the Hubbard's items I now have in place of the #11 nipples on my .58 & .45 (made from a .45-70 Shikari). May have been a low volume aftermarket piece he found.

Don't think muzzleloading had anywhere near the following then as it does now.

Hammerspur, I got some information from some old timers and a old gunsmith friend of mine today. The Huntsman was made with a muzzleloader barrel not the 12 gauge muzzleloader barrel, it was sold with a kit that let you use the 209 primer and could be loaded from the breach area or the muzzle. The Feds were giving H&R such a hard time about the gun having to be sold as a rifle and other flack from the feds made H&R stop making the Huntsman M/L with the 209 set up and kit.
I did however see a H&R Huntsman M/L today for sale at the gunsmiths shop, it was a .58 cal with a #11 nipple. I would of bought it, if it was a 50 Cal.

I was glad I read your post, I found out something new today.

[Redhawk1]

Busta, please don't be a spell checker here. He missed the c key and put the g in it's place.  Thanks.

Just asking a question, thought there might be some new hybred bullet that I didn't know about, since he spelled it that way twice.

While were at it, maybe we should get this thread back on the tracks? WHO, besides you, said that the Knight KP1 was going to make the Encore and Omega obsolete? I must have missed that. I'm thinking the KP1 will make the Encore better, it's called competition. A good thing for both companies.

Looks like T/C might be the ones making the Omega obsolete (if that is indeed the case) with their new Triumph.

Let's get back to the KP1, who likes it's design?

I got that from another site about the same subject, It was Randy Fakeman.  that said the new Knight KP1 was going to make the Encore and Omega obsolete. It is hard to keep track on two different site's.
You are correct about getting back on track, but I think everyone has gone a little off track, but in the process I learned something that did not pertain to the knight KP1.

PS I still don't like the new Knight KP1. 

[slave]

Hey, if we were not off track a bit it would not be the same. The one consistant is we wonder  

[alleyyooper]

I like it and like the other person said it does look like one of my OU's some what. If I were in the market for a rifle that allowed interchangeable barrels I would buy one. If I was in the market for a new ML I would buy one.
Hey sabot loader here is a chance to off load that tight trigger guard gun and get another new one   

I like the looks of the Trumph too but tillI test it with the heavy hunting gloves I want no part of it.

   Al

[Bullseye]

The new Knight does not interest me because I am still in the process of heading down the Smokeless route and even after another year of new gun intros that only leaves one choice.

[Hammerspur]

Hammerspur, I got some information from some old timers and a old gunsmith friend of mine today. 1The Huntsman was made with a muzzleloader barrel not the 12 gauge muzzleloader barrel,2 it was sold with a kit that let you use the 209 primer and could be loaded from the breach area or the muzzle. 3The Feds were giving H&R such a hard time about the gun having to be sold as a rifle and other flack from the feds made H&R stop making the Huntsman M/L with the 209 set up and kit.
4I did however see a H&R Huntsman M/L today for sale at the gunsmiths shop, it was a .58 cal with a #11 nipple. I would of bought it, if it was a 50 Cal.

1-I think your friend is mistaken on this one... the 12ga. muzzleloader bbl. comes with ramrod and ferules, and has no chamber, ejector, etc: may have been an accessory bbl. offered for the Huntsman series as opposed to complete package... have to do some research on that.

2-ANY inline with an easily removed breechplug can be loaded from the breech (especially true with the push-in on the old Huntsman)  a la early caplock Sharps falling blocks, but you'd need to tear the paper by hand before 'closing' the action by re-inserting the breechplug.

3-That point is the same issue leading to the present H&R Co. producing a Huntsman model as well as the Sidekick... the latter's frame is too short to mount one of their centerfire cartridge/shell bbls. on, eliminating an unregistered firearm getting out there.

The original Huntsman used the same frames as all the other rifles/shotguns produced at the time with the exception of markings and fitment of a fat firing pin intended for whacking a #11 primer... it works just fine on a 209 primer too.

4-That .58 you saw was produced in the '70's by the original H&R Co, probably has the push-in breechplug.... .50 cals are of the new, twice (?) reorganized company, and comes with a screw-in breechplug.

[Busta]

Redhawk1,

Your old timers and old gunsmith friend are wrong, the H&R Huntsman Model 156 was manufactured with a 12ga Muzzleloading barrel.

H&R manufactured the Huntsman Model 156 12ga, .58 cal, .45 cal Muzzleloading shotgun and rifles from 1972-1979. I posted that on the first page of this thread. I believe it was Hubbards that built the 209 plug.

Now you have me sidetracked again, back to the KP1.

[Hammerspur]

someone had a hangfire, broke the action open and the breechplug became a projectile when the powder ignited.

This issue really frosts me! When the courts, f-in' lawyers, BATF or whatever penalizes a legitimate manufacturer for doing business responsibly, through rhetoric and the ignorance and emotionality of the jurors, that's one thing.

But the continued reference, here and elsewhere, to how 'dangerous' the original push-in breechplug design was and is... UGH! on the part of people who, being familiar with firearms, should know better.

Yes, if you have a hangfire with one of these push-in arms and open the action immediately after the ignition failure and the propellant then goes off things could become quite unpleasant.

Hasn't anyone considered that the same hazard exists if a delayed ignition occurs in a CENTERFIRE RIFLE OR SHOTGUN?!

[Drilling Man]

H&R manufactured the Huntsman Model 156 12ga, .58 cal, .45 cal Muzzleloading shotgun and rifles from 1972-1979.

  I had one of those waaaaay back then in 58 cal..  It really was a good shooter..

  DM

[Busta]

someone had a hangfire, broke the action open and the breechplug became a projectile when the powder ignited.

This issue really frosts me! When the courts, f-in' lawyers, BATF or whatever penalizes a legitimate manufacturer for doing business responsibly, through rhetoric and the ignorance and emotionality of the jurors, that's one thing.

But the continued reference, here and elsewhere, to how 'dangerous' the original push-in breechplug design was and is... UGH! on the part of people who, being familiar with firearms, should know better.

Yes, if you have a hangfire with one of these push-in arms and open the action immediately after the ignition failure and the propellant then goes off things could become quite unpleasant.

Hasn't anyone considered that the same hazard exists if a delayed ignition occurs in a CENTERFIRE RIFLE OR SHOTGUN?!

Hammerspur,

The design had a built in safety feature that would not let the breech plug clear the standing breech when opened, but people bypassed/modified them to open further for convenience. That turned a hang-fire into a deadly accident.

[Hammerspur]

Busta,

I did not know that. I do not know when that might have been implemented in the design, from the outset or as a product improvement. If I'm not mistaken, the plug can be knocked out of the breech on my .58 from the muzzle with the ramrod while the action is opened... yeah, sure it can.

I've done it when showing others the modification I did on the plug: hollowed the front out into a conical powder well... eliminated almost completely blowby into the standing breech area, should afford more consistant, thorough powder burn as well.

 
powder well

 
back end w/Hubbard's 209 holder(allen socket in flash channel to install/remove)

 
early style Hubbard's 209 holder(new style has knurling replaced w/hex nut exterior for install/remove)

[coop2564]

Looks great! And I'm sure coming from Knight it will be a winner.  But me and my Huntsman's are joined at the shoulder.

[UtahRob]

what ever I buy I will make sure it made in Spain !!

[Redhawk1]

UtahRob,
that is not a common occurrence, it was an obstructed barrel, nothing to do with a weak chamber. Any gun would of done the same thing.
Also, not even a muzzleloader.

[manofthe45]

what ever I buy I will make sure it made in Spain !!

IF you go up to the single shot forum you will see that this barrel was a stw round.  There is a reason T/C and no respectable aftermarket barrel maker will make "ultra magnum" barrels. They aren't safe.  Just because this yahoo got someone to make or rechamber this barrel and it failed doesn't say anything about T/C's quaility

[slave]

Wow, bet when who ever dropered that hammer on that Encore they wondered why they spent all that money just to mess up a good gun.

[Redhawk1]

That is the same reason T/C will not make a Winchester short mag for the Encore barrels. The walls would be to thin.

Also sorry I posted about it being a squib load. I was misinformed. Thanks for posting the real reason.

[kyelkhunter3006]

what ever I buy I will make sure it made in Spain !!   

Anyone have any pictures of the CVA's that blew up?  Oh man, couldn't resist.  Don't want to get that whole thing going again, not on this posting.

[JRinNY]

While I do not think that the new Knight will really hurt the Encore sales - there are those who are looking for an alternative to the Encore.  First things first- I am not anti-Encore. I started out with an older CVA inline and then bought an Encore. It was a major step up in money but the encore had other issues that made me look elsewhere. ( I had a .22hornet barrel and .45ml barrel and they required 2 different forearms- each needed to be floated and point of impact would be off as much as 2.5 inches by swapping barrels.) I then bought a Knight and was pleased with very good accuracy and a very comfotable gun. I also bought a Savage when they came out and now will no longer be tempted by any other muzzleloaders. My point is Redhawk- not everyone has the same experience with the Encore as you.  I still have mine in .22hornet but the .45 barrel is gone. I have a good friend who is a full-time gunsmith who got the Encore to shoot but it needs adjusting when the barrel is taken off or forearm is taken off. This alone made me ditch the muzzleloader barrel. Keep an open mind -every manufacturer has their good and bad points. All these muzzleloaders shot under 1.5 inches (the CVA was never shot at 100 yards because scopes were not legal during our muzzleloader season when I had it.) My brother has an Encore pro hunter with the Nikon omega scope and it shoots great. But with the Savage and a Burris ballisti -plex reticle I can shoot the same size groups as him but can go another 75 yards with my set-up. There is  more than one gun that can get the job done-and you are entitled to your opinion. I own several of the major manufacturers products-and have first hand experience with them and there is not as much difference in them as some would want you to believe. Until you go to smokeless- the top of the line brand x will shoot very close to top of the line brand z. All the beating your chest over the Encore is not doing anything for everyone else who has a great shooting muzzleloader in another brand.  I have had 3 that would shoot under 1.5  inches and two of them were not made by TC. I am not bashing them but feel there are other options that someone else might consider without being told what is the best-because someone else could come along and show you something better. Just my opininion with REAL-FIRST HAND-EXPERIENCE of some of the muzzleloaders.

[Redhawk1]

JRinNY, there is no substitute for  REAL-FIRST HAND-EXPERIENCE. I respect anyone that can give a report with experience and not a he said she said. 

[DannoBoone]

 I already own the best muzzleloader made, the Encore. 



I know a lot of you anti-Encore people like to take a swat at the T/C Encore any time you can, but when you are at the top you expect that. 

I own 2 Encores and the best muzzleloader made........................but it isn't the Encore. 

[Redhawk1]

 I already own the best muzzleloader made, the Encore. 



I know a lot of you anti-Encore people like to take a swat at the T/C Encore any time you can, but when you are at the top you expect that. 

I own 2 Encores and the best muzzleloader made........................but it isn't the Encore. 

It is all subject to opinion.