Relative Quality of Uberti, Pietta, ASM, Palmetto, etc?

[Brazos Jack]

I've always held Uberti to be the highest quality roducer of C&B revolvers. And even their quality is not near what it should be. I've heard good things recently on this board about Pietta. I must admit to never having heard of Palmetto until recently.

For each of the following, I'd be interested in your opinions as to who makes the best one and who their importer(s) for that model are (Navy, Cimarron, Dixie, EMF, etc.)? Where are Palmetto's made or are they just an importer?

1848/1849 Colt Pocket/Baby Dragoon/Wells Fargo .31 - ?

1858 Remington - ?

1860 Colt Army .44 - ?

1861 Colt Navy - ?

1862 Colt Police .36 - ?

1863 Remington New Model Pocket .31 - ?

Anyone got a 1855 Colt Sidehammer from Palmetto yet? How's the quality? What do you think of the design itself - pro and con - versus a Remington type or a Colt 1860/61/62 type?

What are the pros and cons of the little pocket Remington versus the little 1848/49 .31 Colts?

Thanks,

Brazos Jack

[Flint]

In order of quality, and the make/model of the original is not really a factor:

For Colts, the best quality for fit, finish and authenticity is the 2nd generation series from 1971 (Colt 51 Navy),  1974 (3rd Model Dragoon),1978 (1860 Army)  The 3rd generation beginning in the early 1980's is not as well made, and by other mixed parts vendors.  The Color cae is marvelous on all these, but the 3rd generation guns are overpolished, before assembly, so corners are rounded, etc, and the physical details are not as authentic, as to triggerguard size, nickel instead of silver plate, missing capping grooves, unspiraled cylinder pin relief, loose cylinder pins, and others.  

Uberti made the parts for the 2nd gen Colts, and the 3rd gen look like a mix of ASM and Pietta.  The assembly finishing of the 2nd gen was by Iver Johnson, who did a very good job. The 3rd gen was by Colt Black Powder in Brooklyn N.Y., who might have been better advised to make shoes or something.

Top quality and authenticityof the Italian imports would be, Ubertis by Cimarron or Taylor, then Uberti  itself, of either Remingtons or Colts.

Next (now) Pietta, though some major parts are not interchangable with Uberti.  Piettas aren't as authentic in some shapes and contours. Older Piettas were rougher in final finish.

Armi San Marcos is further down the list for fit and finish.

EMF or DIXIE quality depends upon who made the gun in Italy to start with.

Makers who produce things like 44 cal Navies aren't much into authenticity.  If I want a 44 Colt, I would get the 1860 Army, why would I want an overbored 51 Navy?  

No brand of brass framed revolver is going to stand up to heavy use, but they are pretty.

All of them could have been better, and the quality of the conversions and open-tops is quite a bit higher than the percussions, both for fit/finish and steel hardness. (as indeed they need to be to shoot smokeless).

[Boge]

Palmetto Arms inherited some tooling from Armi San Paolo (Euroarms). At least that's what I've heard. I recently bought a copy of their Whitney .36 from Deer Creek and it's very nice. Just as good as an Uberti IMHO. Excellent frame casting. I've never pointed a better feeling cap 'n ball than the Whitney.

[Brazos Jack]

Flint,

Sounds like the 3rd Gen Colts aren't too good. Are they just not as good as the 2nd Gen Colts or are they also not as good as a Cimarron or Taylor's Uberti? I was actually thinking of collecting some of the current production 3rd Gen Colts, but from what you say that may not net me any good guns.

[Flint]

Quality of 3rd gen Colt Black Powder is not as good as 2nd gen, by a noticable amount.  I'm sure they are as strong, but they are less authentic in shapes and finish, nickel instead of Silver, etc.  The squareback original and 2nd gen 51 Navy had a small triggerguard, and correspondingly shorter trigger.  The third gen has a peacemaker sized triggerguard and trigger.  The lettering (36 Cal, or 44 Cal on the triggerguard is the wrong size.  The parts are polished disassembled, which rounds the corners, and makes a less desireable non flush joint when assembled.  The corners of the octagonal barrels are even overbuffed and rounded.  The cylinder pin, instead of the spiral grease groove, has an irregularly spaced series of straight grooves, ala Armi San Marcos.  They even come with factory supplied loose cylinder pins, I had to drill out the retainer, clean and locktite and replace the pin with a #6 setscrew on my 3rd gen 1860 Army. That gun has no capping groove, a feature on ALL 1860 Armies.  The 2nd gen (Uberti parts) Colts on the other hand were very well done, and the color case is beautiful (on both gens).  I recently bought a new 61 Navy, from Cimarron (Uberti) and it is as well made and fitted as the 2nd gen Colts, and as well finished as ANY gun I've ever seen from Uberti, short of the Schofields and Russians which are very nicely fitted and finished.  Might have been built under Beretta QC.  It even has a good barrel throat, very seldom seen on an Italian percussion.  I also don't appreciate the Sam Colt "Signature" on that 3rd gen gun.  My 51 Navy and 60 Army 2nd gen guns are better finished in many respects than the Colt SAA.  If you can find 2nd gen Colts, earlier the better, you'll have better examples of the type.

[Brazos Jack]

Thanks Flint,

Since getting your reply I've been trying to gather info on the 2nd Gen Colts.

I have heard that the first of the 2nd Gen percussion Colt’s were Uberti parts assembled and finished by Iver Johnson. Who did the later 2nd Gen assembly and finishing?

I have seen the earliest 2nd Gen guns referred to a “C” series and that they had a “bright” blue finish that was less durable (but probably more authentic) than the dark blue/black finish on the later “F” series. Was this where the Iver Johnson versus someone else change occurred or is it unrelated?

[Flint]

The company assembling and finishing the 3rd gen guns is/was in Brooklyn, NY.  Called Colt Black Powder (?)   The deeper black finsh is standard black oxide, and may be more durable than "blue" black oxide, but not as pretty.  Iver-Johnson no longer exists, was bought and sold, changed names, etc., don't know what remains of it, but they did a very good job assembling and finishing, and were benefitted by having better parts to start with (Uberti). The 3rd gen Signature Series parts are from several vendors in Italy, Pietta, Armi San Marcos and probably Uberti, but as Uberti's prices are higher, the other vendors seem to have been used more.  Since Colt never intended the guns as shooters, but as collectors, the mechanical problems weren't a concern.  However, the details hurt them as a collector for me, so I repaired and substituted some parts to get the 3rd gen Army working right.  Look (if you find one) at the difference in shape between a 3rd gen Army or Navy hammer and a 2nd gen (or Uberti), and the details of contour show up even there.  I put an Uberti hammer in mine, which not only looks better, but the not  quite straight and perpendicular full cock notch of the original hammer is now gone.  Also, as mentioned before. reset and tightened the cylinder pin.

[Brazos Jack]

Does anyone know if the company who makes the 3rd Gen Colt percussions (Colt Blackpowder) is the same one that made the later (F Series) 2nd Gen guns?

[Flint]

That was what we just went over.  Iver Johnson, using Uberti made parts, made the 2nd gen Colt percussion guns from 1971 through about 1982 or a bit later.  The "Signature Series" 3rd generation Colt Black Powder guns were made by a completely different company in Brooklyn New York,  from the mid 80's through to very recently, from parts secured from a variety of Italian makers, Pietta and Armi San Marcos, and maybe some from Uberti.  The fit and finish and authenticity of detail was quite different than the earlier 2nd generation guns.  Note here that in referring to 2nd and 3rd generation, we are talking only about the percussion revolvers, not the Single Action Army, which has always been made by Colt in the Colt factory, (With probably the exception of the Colt Cowboy). and has its own 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation guns, not related to the black powder guns at all.

[Brazos Jack]

Iver Johnson assembled the early 2nd Gen percussion Colts starting in 1971. They did not do all of the second Gen percussion. And no, I'm not talking about the 3rd Gen by Colt Blackpowder of Brooklyn started in 1994. Iver Johnson did not make the last of the 2nd Gen which ended in 1982. There were two series of 2nd Gen Colt percussions. The "C" series and the "F" series. The "C" was first and consisted only of '51 Navys and 3rd Dragoons with bright blue finishes from '71 to '76. Later '51's and 3rd Dragoons, as well as all other 2nd Gen models were "F" series and had a darker blue black finish and were made from '78 to '82. I do not know if the series change coincided with the change of who was doing the assembly, but I do know that Iver Johnson did not finsh the last of them. My question is "who did finish the late 2nd Gen percussion Colts?"

[Flint]

That is a question that may be answered in my research books on Colt.  I never had run across an interim finisher for the series, so it will be interesting to see.  I know that the earliest guns were of a much higher polish than the later ones.  My 1851 is a black mirror, and later examples are running closer to matte.  The CBP Brooklyn guns are highly polished, but it was all done on the buffing wheel rather than the prep, so many corners and surfaces are rounded and lack the crispness ans straightness of line they should have.

[Brazos Jack]

I may have found it. On pages 25-26 of "Colt Blackpowder" by Dennis Adler. He says that the early 2nd Gen guns were made from parts obtained from Val Forgett and Navy Arms (in turn from Uberti, I assume). The early guns were then fitted and finished by Colt at the Hartford facility. It was the later 2nd Gen guns that were fitted and finished in Middlesex, New Jersey by Iver Johnson and Louis Imperato. So I had it backwards. Though Adler doesn't state it, from his description it sounds like this handoff from Colt to Iver Johnson did occur at the same time as the finish change that marks the change from "C" series to "F" series.

Adler goes on to say that the following parts for all the 2nd gen guns were actually made by Iver Johnson: frames, center pins, nipples, and screws. In other words, anything with threads in it.

[Flint]

Interesting, because it is at this time that Uberti changed their threads to English, or English compatible.  The nipple threads was changed from the traditional Italian metric thread (as still used by Pietta, etc.) to #12-24, the same as Ruger.  The original Colt nipple thread (19th century) was .225-32. or a hair over #12-32.  The gripframe screws were M4X0.7 are now #8-36, same as Colt.  Those threads are so close that an 8-36 tap will clean out the old thread to fit a newer replacement screw. The Only difference now is the head which is 5mm diameter in Italian and .219 in USA.

[Brazos Jack]

Flint,

I really appreciate the information you've put into this thread.I've learned a lot from it and definitely plan to search out 2nd Gen Colts as my Cap & Bal of choice.

[Flint]

Pardon me for my error, but the Ruger and Uberti nipple thread is #12-28, not 12-24.  Just in case someone needs to refresh a thread or convert something, I'd hate to be responsible for screwing it up. (no pun intended).  Ruger #12-28 nipples will fit an Uberti if you make shimwashers .310 OD, .210 ID and .015 thich to put them in range of the hammer nose.