How Many, How Long?

[JHT]

Hi.  I've just been "hooked" by reviewing these posts and doing a little research on goggle.  Like the perverbial 'ton of bricks' falling on you it didn't take long for me to see the craftsmanship and artistry that Bill Grover put into his work.  Is it common knowledge how many years he produced his single actions for, was he a fulltime smith?  Better yet, is it known how many guns he is responsible for producing?  I guess what I'm doing is trying to figure out how difficult is will be for me to acquire some of his work.

Do you know or at least have a feeling if most people who are lucky enough to own his guns either "use them" or treat them as "safe queens?"

Is there a Best Source of Information to learn more about Bill Grover and his work?

Seriously, if you know or become aware of Bill's work going on sale, PLEASE LET ME KNOW.  Thanks very much.

JHT

[2 dogs]

Grover was a sixgunsmith that turned Gun Maker in the 80's. He went out of business and later died in 2004. I dont think anyone really knows how many sixguns he made. You can find examples of his work both production and prototype on gunbroker and gunsamerica auction sites from time to time. It took me 10 years to aquire some!

The best source of information that I am aware of are the books written by John Taffin. There is also a yahoo group called TLA_Collectors that may shed some light for you.

Like Boxhead, I am pretty careful with mine. I do shoot and carry them.

[Graybeard]

To the best of my knowledge I've never actually lald eyes on one in person, only seen them in photographs. Can't say I've ever heard anyone that owned one complain about it tho.

[JHT]

2 dogs and Graybeard,

Thanks for your interest in responding to my post.  No doubt exists that two things will be required in order to acquire one of Bill Grover's revolvers.  First, some luck in locating an example; and second, a fair amount of money.  Perhaps I should post a "bounty" for anyone who brings an available piece of Grover work to my attention.  No, that won't work as I will need that money to help pay for the revolver --  oh well, just a thought.

Was Bill Grover recognized during his lifetime for his talent or as with many skilled individuals was his abilities only brought to the fore after his death?

Thanks gentlemen,

JHT

[2 dogs]

I did speak to him a couple of times on the phone and he was a Southern Gentleman for sure. I never did get to meet him in person. He was getting pretty popular by the time he lost his business.

The first time I handled one of his #5 sixguns I had driven to West Texas to meet Jim Wilson of Shooting Times who had one. That was in 1997 so it was a while before I was able to buy one. Dont give up.

[Ken ONeill]

I met Bill on the YO in 1992, and handled but did not shoot his personal No. 5, although he extended an offer to me to do so. He struck me as a very kind man. It was the only time we ever talked. John Taffin, as 2 Dogs has said, did more to champion TLA's guns, and wrote far more about them than anyone else. Shortly after I met Bill, The American Rifleman did a Dope Bag test of one of his .44's (I believe it was a No.5), but they panned the accuracy of the particular gun that they tested. I can recall saying to myself " uh-oh...." I never saw a follow up test by them, and believe there wasn't one. John, however, has been complimentary in print on the accuracy of his.
As a side note, Bill and John Wooters were both wearing really neat and unique holsters on that hunt that Bill was selling for his guns. They were Hi-rise, usually worn cross draw, and snapped onto and off the belt, without a need to remove the belt, and had a great hammer thong. Have you gotcha one of those yet, 2 Dogs?

[2 dogs]

You bet I do. They are now being made by Blocker Leather. The folks at Blocker are excellent to deal with. The holster is called the Texas Hi Rider. Ken, as soon as I figure out a way to meet with you  will have to shoot one of my #5's!

[JHT]

Reading these brief stories that you guys have written is giving me quite a inlook into who Bill Grover really was.  It must have been a pleasure to have known this man.  Conversely it must have been a great loss both for those that knew Bill and for the shooting community in general when he passed.  I encourage all of you to keep the stories, both long and short, coming.  This will serve to keep his memory alive and to foster the quality work that he is now known for.  Regards,

JHT

[2 dogs]

That is the plan.

[cubrock]

I've been collecting serial number and configuration info on #5s for about a year now and have, off the top of my head, only 12-15 guns in my database with another few I wasn't able to get info on.  I own K11 in .44 mag.  Bill Grover definitely appears to have made some configuration changes early on in #5 production, standardizing the configuration, whereas the early guns appear to have been basically handmade with resultant minor differences.

I really like my #5, but I must warn you that TLA guns are not the be-all, end-all that some people say they are.  For the money, buying a Freedom Arms revolver will get you a better gun.  A common problem among TLA guns is lockwork that is not heat treated, thus with use, the parts get deformed and stop working correctly.  I've encountered this problem with about 1/3 of the TLA owners I've been able to interview.  However, many of the owners never shot their gun or shoot it only sparingly, so the problem may not have shown up yet.  For me, I automatically add $300 in my head to the purchase price of a TLA so that it can be sent off and the lockwork heat treated if necessary.  Dave Clements did mine, but any of the good revolver smiths can take are of it.

Also, Grover used soft solder for my front sight and ejector rod housing stud, so at the first shot, the ERH stud flew off the gun (with the ejector rod) and the front sight was well on its way to coming off.  Clements fixed this for me, too, so my gun isn't 100% original, but it works and works well.

Finally, the NRA, I think, was spot on with its mild criticism of the accuracy of Grover's guns.  Mine is an accurate and consistent gun, but I could have gotten a more accurate gun by buying a Freedom Arms for the same money.  TLA guns ARE prettier than FA guns, though. 

If you want a TLA, by all means shake the bushes and get one.  However, please do it with your eyes open.  I was bitterly disappointed in mine at first, but I'm glad to have it now.  It is my main hunting gun and goes with me in the woods often.  If I ever get another, it will be the same way.  I refuse to own safe queens.   

[JHT]

Cubrock, thanks for a very revealing insight, by an owner, that obviously has come to know his revolver with quite some depth.  Your critique was revealing, interesting and has added more depth to the knowledge base of both owners and those non-owners that have an interest in TLA revolvers.  Regards,

JHT

[90north]

"southern gentlemen", "kind"!  Bill Grover was a Liar and a thief.  He took money for guns he didn't deliver and made no attempt to pay his victims back.  Maybe my money paid for his YO hunt instead of the pistol he was paid for.  He delivered pistols for various gun writers so they would write articles and drum up interest from people like me who paid in full for pistols that and never delivered. 

[Boxhead]

The earliest article on Grover that I have is from a 1983 Guns & Ammo that Phil Spangenberger did. It covers all but the #5 which had not yet been introduced. The Texas Border Special is done in a matte blue. There are great photos of Thell Reed doing the "Texas Shift" with a pair of Grover's guns and shots of a heavier Grover (than in later photos and when I met him) shooting as well. I met with Grover at his place when I ordered my #5 in 1993. He met me at his gate on the road and pulled a #5 from his waist and handed it to me. Once he was convinced that I was serious, he opened the gate and invited me in. I spent at least a couple of hours touring his shop seeing each step of the guns manufacture. We then sat in his office chatting about the future he was hoping for. He showed me stainless steel prototypes as well as a couple with folding leaf rear sights. He talked of introducing a line of intermediately priced revolvers between what his were seliling for and that of Ruger's. He talked of a couple of long guns he was working on. He sent me away with a stack of brochures, price lists, investor announcements, copies of many magazine and newspaper (the Houston Chronicle) articles that had been written on his guns and suggested I would have my #5 in a few months. Three months later the phone rang and it was ready for pick up.

[poules'deau]

That is a great article and the earliest I've come across.   Early last year I contacted Phil Spangenberger and he was gracious enough to send me a copy with a nice handwritten note.  It is interesting that in the article he mentions seeing Grovers guns for the first time at the previous NRA show in Phoenix (I take it to mean earlier in 1983) where arrangements were made for G&A to shoot them some 10 days later, the basis for the article.  So, that was surely in TLA's infancy. 

I'd be interested if anyone knows of anything earlier.

Jim

[Codep]

Cubrock and 90North are correct. I personally know of 14 TLA revolvers with soft internals. You have to be careful. I was at Grover's "factory" many years ago. He was a "nice" man but as a trained police investigator, I always had the feeling in the back of my neck to watch my wallet. That man could sell you anything. I purchased my #5 during that visit. It was laying on a table, the sale cancelled by a previous buyer. It is a .45Colt. I just sold that two digit revolver on Sixgunner classified's. You boys should pay more attention if you are lusting for these guns. There are more fine guns to come! When at Grover's I saw many frames and triggerguard-backstrap combos laying on a table. These were fresh from Ruger Pine Tree Castings. Lots of Ruger boxes laying around.
Bill would take money for orders and never deliver the revolver. This happened to my partner in Chicago. He was always behind the 8-ball on his production schedules and paying his suppliers. At the time I was there, blueing and case coloring were also farmed out. These revolvers are different, stuppidly so, some might think! I never fell in love with the left hand mechanism. I have never seen one that indexed properly. They are what they are! Like quick sand, the hype will suck you in if you're not careful. Don't believe everything you read. Cubrock knows what he is talking about. The average FA is five times the gun!
                                                            Walt

[majorKAP]

Thanks for the commentary, Walt.

You've seen 14 with soft guts.  Have you seen even one that is decently constructed? 

I don't idolize any man, but I like the Grover guns, and I've been known to suck a little hype before.  So, if you would,  please inform me when you know of another one on the market.

Keep the criticism coming in the meantime.  That way,  maybe the next one I buy will be cheap.
 
KAP

[Codep]

MAJOR there are many out there that were properly hardened, I'm sure. I've been buying, selling, fireing and learning about sixguns for close to 49 years. Three of 12 soft guns were in my immediate family, with the rest belonging to friends from North Florida, Georgia and Chicago. More will turn up as they wind up in the hands of SHOOTERS and not collectors. Also, two of that total number have been reported on the Sixgunner forums. I have seen and/or handled just about every model he made. There is a fellow combat shooter in Chicago who would bring a few of his many thumb cockers along to play with after the training matches. Ever see a short barreled, round butted, stainless .44 Mag with a three leaf folding rear sight? He also has a #5 in .44 Spec. and a fully engraved #5 in .44 Mag. The engraved gun is soft as putty. He won't even cock it any longer. He has plenty of gun money and doesn't care. None of them have been shot much. I cannot remember ever handling one that indexed properly. As I've said before, they are what they are! I think all the hype concerning Grover's creations stems from the fact they came along when really nice sixguns, finish, tightness of fit and proper chambers, were not easy to come by. Today, that is not the case. To each his own! Any sixgun man is O.K. with me. Any sixgun is better than none!
                                Walt

[Boxhead]

While FA guns are nice and I own one, they are a dime a dozen and stainless steel. Some of us prefer the obscure and the TLA guns are just that. I guess I am lucky as I have fired mine extensively for 14 years with no problems. It is though a "Sixgunner" thing....