Cap and ball revolvers

[Benaiah]

 Some guy at a gun shop tried to tell me that a cap and ball revolver isn't covered by concealed carry laws, and can be carried concealed without a permit. I find this hard to believe, since it is still a handgun. Does anybody here know? I did a search on the internet and can't find any info about blackpowder revolvers.

[K.K]

I'd check your local and state laws. Here in New York, you do not need a permit to own a cap and ball revolver, but I am not sure I'd carry one without a permit. Come to think of it, I have a permit and still wouldn't carry one for self-defense.

[TrenchMud]

check your individual states law, Some states they are considered non-guns. I carry a .44 Dragoon from time to time, but only going to and from hunting or fishing. I don't really feel undergunned
when I have it. I actually prevented an assault of a guy by two other guys once with a .45
CVA deringer. They didn't really know what it was, but were in no hurry get shot by it either.
I probably would have missed them anyway but they didn't have that information either !

[Benaiah]

This guy I talked to had it stuffed in his pants in the back. It was one of those Cabela's Colt Navy 44 sheriff's models in stainless. Seems like it would do the job at close range. Guess they probably were good enough back when they were carried by lawmen and outlaws alike.

[Mikey]

K.K.:  Here in NYS you do not need a permit to own a cap and ball revolver but you need a permit if you intend to obtain cap, powder and ball for it and shoot it.  I guess it is OK to purchase one and hang it on the wall but you need a pistol permit to shoot it.  You can purchase cap, powder and ball at any store that sells those products, without a permit but if you load it to shoot it you need a permit.  Go figure, huh.........

HTH.  Mikey.

[williamlayton]

I think that what I am fixin to do is called hi-jacking a thread.
I have been wondering, for some times now, about the laws and the lawboys in NYS.
I know youse guys-- -- have some pretty stringent laws up there. Are they enforced too the letter??
I ask, because, down here they are not enforced as stringently as the law demands. I guess it has to do with the situation. I carried for years and was stopped for many moving violations--youth and that is the only excuse--without an incident.
I have stated many times that the boys expect that most folks have one--well, in days past and in the out-of-town areas.
Blessings

[S.S.]

William, I would guess that most of the officers in NYS didn't grow up around guns all their lives.
The officers around where I live don't seem to mind firearms just so long as you tell them you have it up front. ( I have bought guns from and sold to many officers) Now finding one during a search is a whole different story. ALWAY tell an officer right off if you are carrying a weapon, You do not want any misunderstandings even by accident ... To answer the initial post, I would put a .44 sheriffs model up against many carry guns as far as power and accuracy. The only real downside would be reloading if necessary. My black powder revolvers handle as well or better than  most of my modern handguns

[K.K]

My experience has been positive with the ploice and concealed carry. I have been stopped for speeding a few times and of course always notified the officer of my concealed weapon. They always been appreciative and cooperative, even complimentary of my carry guns!  Always let them know and DON'T go digging around for it before he or she is at the window.

[Win 73]

This guy I talked to had it stuffed in his pants in the back. It was one of those Cabela's Colt Navy 44 sheriff's models in stainless. Seems like it would do the job at close range. Guess they probably were good enough back when they were carried by lawmen and outlaws alike.

Hickock carried and used to very good effect a brace (a pair) of 1851 Navy Colts (.36 caliber) even after cartridge guns were available.  Of course from what I have read, he was a very good shot.  His first killing was a fellow named Dave Tutt in Springfield, Missouri.  The distance was 50 or 60 yards.  Tutt fired first and missed.  Hickock fired once and killed Tutt.

I once read a book by (or at least about) Buffalo Jones.  He was largely responsible for preserving the buffalo in this country.  He would take buffalo calves to his preserve.  But first he would have to kill the mother.  He would ride along side it and shoot it with a Navy (or maybe it was an 1860 Army .44) Colt.

 Anyway I think all the people killed by those cap and ball revolvers would agree that they were good enough.

[LEO]

It will probably vary from area to area whether it is legal or not.  The thing that confuses a lot of people is most of the time concealed carry laws apply to a variety of stuff not just firearms.  I would be reluctant to take the word of someone on the street, there are a lot of sidewalk lawyers out there if you know what I mean.  Contact the local District Attorneys office and ask them.  I would do this in writting so you don't get into an issue of interperataion.  They will not give you legal advice but they will tell you what the law is.  But before doing that I would get on the internet and look up the law for the area in question, it may be plain enough to where you don't need to ask.  Like I said always be careful when you take the advice of someone who is not in some way trained in what the law is because after all if they are wrong, it is still you in jail.

As far as the question about how officers deal with firearms in vehicles and such.  Where I mostly work it is legal to have the firearm loaded as long it is plain view or in the glove box.  If partially obstructed or full concealed and loaded a permit is required.  When I approach a vehicle, after telling them why I stopped them, I ask for license, insurance and registration, as they start to get that stuff, I ask are there any firearms or weapons in the vehicle.  If there is and they tell me about them, I do not charge them even if they don't have a permit, unless there are alcohol or drugs present.  If you tell me there isn't and then subsequently I wind up searching the vehicle and find one you are going to be charged.  But if I am to the point of searching your vehicle there is a lot more going on than a simple traffic stop. This is not what the law says it is just how I do business, I have no problem with law abiding folks carrying guns, who knows I may need their help someday.  Not all officers take this approach however, some follow a strict interperation of the law.  So if  you want to be on the safe side get a permit.  I would advise you to spend a few bucks with an attorney and find out the ins and outs of the law where you live and regularly travel to it could save a lot of money in the long run.

I just realized I didn't answer the C&B question, where I work, it is not a firearm but is still a deadly weapon so it would require a concealed carry permit to carry concealed.

[Benaiah]

LEO-

it is not a firearm but is still a deadly weapon so it would require a concealed carry permit to carry concealed.

Thanks. That's the feeling I got about the whole thing anyway, that a cap and ball is still a deadly weapon. They may not be as effective as a cartridge gun, but they will do the job.

[Mikey]

Yes, I believe that New York State has the most stringent carry concealed laws in the nation and I also agree that most New York City Cops probably never had a firearm in their hands until they got one issued to them.  My experiences in the Army with big city kids is pretty much the same - if you come from a big city you are less likely to have any experience with firearms than kids who come from the country.

But as far as the state is concerned, most of the laws are 'up front' - that is, you must pass a background check (both national and internation, which is more than local Police recruits must pass), you cannot have been arrested on any domestic violence charges, you cannot have any alcohol or drug related aproblems on record, you cannot have received services from mental health professionals unless you have documentation that you are no longer effected by the problems you initially suffered, you must take a 3-day Firearms Safety Course given by a qualified NRA Firearms Instructor, and you must have either purchased the pistol you intend to carry or have it on lay-a-way (I do not believe they will let you take the course if you don't either own a handgun or have put down money for it) as they (local judges I gather) prefer to have a make, model and serial number on your permit.  This last one may be a local concern. 

There are no laws currently in place that require any updates to the permit.  Once it is issued it will not change unless you purchase another handgun, and then the information is added to your permit.  You will lose your permit to carry if you are arrested for DWI, DUI, Domestic Violence crimes or anything worse. 

I don't bother telling any cops who stop me that I am carrying unless they ask.  The law does not state you have to notify every cop you come into contact with that you are carrying.  If they ask you if you have a gun with you then you have to answer but not otherwise (the nyc pd mentality spreads far and wide).

I got stopped at a DWI checkpoint just before Christmas.  It was late at night and I was returning home from a house party.  Fortunately I had read about the checkpoint being set up so I stayed away from alcohol at the party and was stone cold sober when I got stopped.  The Trooper was polite, stated what they were doing, asked if I had been drinking (to which I replied No, in a polite and friendly manner), asked if I was carrying any weapons (to which I answered Yes, in a polite and friendly manner), and asked if I had a license for the handgun (his assumption, it could just have been a pocketknife) (to which I replied Yes, for the past 39 years, in a polite and friendly manner) and was then told to have a safe trip home - Goodnight, goodnight.  HTH.  Mikey.

[rockbilly]

Is a blackpowder gun consideres a firearm, I would say YES.  Following is the defination from Black"s Law Dictionary;

     FIREARM:  An instrument used in the propulsion of shot, shell, or bullets by the action of gunpowder exploded within it.  A weapon which acts by force of gunpowder.  People v. Simons, 124 Misc. 28, 207 N.Y.S. 56.57.  This word comprises all sorts of guns, fowling pieces, blunderbusses, pistols, etc.; Harris v. Cameron, 81 Wis. 239, 51 N.W. 437, 29 Am.St.Rep 891; Atwood v. State, 53 Ala. 509; Whitney Arms Co. v. Barlow, 38 NY Super. Ct. 563; fountain pen primarily intended for discharge of tear gas, People v. Anderson, 236 App.Div. 586, 260 N>Y>S> 329; but not an Air pistol.  People v. Schmidt, 221 App.Div. 77,222 N.Y.S. 647.650.

This is a rather loose discribtion, but Black"s is generally the book used by most courts to define the law.  As a layman, I still read this to include any instrument capable of discharging shot, or bullet to be a firearm, and think that most courts would agree with this.

As for letting a policeman know that I am carrying, under the Texas law, if you are in a vehilce you must not only provide the officer your driver's license and proof of insurance when stopped, you also must provide you concealed carry permit.  The permit is linked to the individuals driver's license,(both carry the same number).  Failure to do so can relsult in a felony charge and/or or you concealled carry permit being pulled.

It is my personal opinion than any time anyone is stopped by an LEO while carrying, they should, first thing, inform the LEO that they are carryiing.  This is a safety issue, and may keep someone from being shot, or otherwise abused, because the cop seen the gun and went into a panic.  Even in far West Texas we have those cops from the big city that do not have experience with guns, and still harbor that big city mentality reguarding them.  Better safe, than sorry!

As for the effectiveness of the black powder guns, they will do the job as long as you keep your powder dry........If you have ever fired a black powder, you know it takes a "spell" for the smoke to clear after you shoot, so you have to make the first one count.  The use of firearms in the old west as displayed in the movies is far from accurate.  Most people killed in the old west were eithe killed at close range, or back shot for a fairly close distance.  The practice of calling someone out, meeting in the street at 40-50 was  largely unheard of.

If a black powder was all that was available, then I would use it, but I hope I never get to the point I have to relie on one................

[jimster]

The State I live in, any gun you use needs to be "registered" so to speak....although they call it a safety inspection, they take the serial numbers and give you a green card. Ya have to have the green card with your gun.  If you have a CCW, you can use any pistol or revolver you want, but you best have the green card which means it's registered.
We can buy blavck powder pistols here without a permit though...just can't USE em until you take a trip down to the police station and get your green card.
Also, in this State, a CCW is a permit to buy a pistol also....