Author Topic: split cases in 17 mk2  (Read 2061 times)

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Offline jon f

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split cases in 17 mk2
« on: January 28, 2007, 01:11:52 AM »
Greetings,  I just bought a CZ classic in 17 mk 2. Out of 30 rounds fired , 2 of the cases have split from the neck down.
The ammo is CCI.  Just wondering if anyone else has had this happen.
                                                               Jon.
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Offline OLDHandgunner

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Re: split cases in 17 mk2
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2007, 03:08:04 AM »
My son just sent his  17 Mach 2  conversion kit  back to the manufacturer because after 40-50 rds. it blew up the clip. Luckily he was not hurt. The round must have not been chambered all the way. He was using Hornady ammo. The more I hear about this newer cartridge the more I wonder if I really want one right now.  Maybe it will take awhile to work out the bugs  so it will shoot safely in all guns .

Offline MSP Ret

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Re: split cases in 17 mk2
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2007, 02:04:23 PM »
One day at the range I mistakenly fired about 10-15 rounds of .17 HMR from my .22 Mag H&R Sportster. My .22 Mag and my .17 HMR look similar and I had picked up the wrong rifle. It usually shoots sub MOA at 100 yards and this time I did not even hit the paper. I found the problem and no harm done but not one case split. After firing they just looked like .22 Mag cases. I think there may be problem with the chamber in that rifle and it should be checked. It also could be that batch of ammo so perhaps you can try some of the ammo in another gun and see what happens. Good luck....<><.... :)
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Offline Bullseye

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Re: split cases in 17 mk2
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2007, 04:19:00 PM »
This is a common problem with any of the ammo made in Idaho by CCI ( this includes CCI, Hornady, Federal).  As a general rule the Eley (they also make Remington) never splits.  I had a Contender barrel that would split anything made in Idaho and would never split any of the Eley.  This is a major problem with the round in my opinion and it has been going on for quite some time.

Check out the HM2 section on rimfirecentral.com for much information on this subject.

Offline jon f

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Re: split cases in 17 mk2
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2007, 11:35:52 PM »
Thanks for your help, after asking a few people here, split necks are quite common with CCI ammo.
More so with HMR than mk2.
I'll try and see if I can get a different brand to try. Here in Victoria ( Australia) we don't have a lot of choice in MK2 ammo.
                              Jon.

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Offline S.S.

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Re: split cases in 17 mk2
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2007, 05:56:36 AM »
I would look at the chamber of the rifle and not the cartridge itself. I can't count the rounds I have fired through my Marlin from the above mentioned manuifacturers and never once had a split case?
The only CCI cases I have ever had a problem with at all were tha Blaser Centerfire line with aluminium cases. As far as I know, CZ has a Lifetime Warranty, I would have them look at the Chamber of the rifle. You might have gotten a rifle that was chambered with a reamer that was used a bit too long.
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: split cases in 17 mk2
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2007, 03:04:58 AM »
I agree there may be a chamber problem but think if the reamer was at the end of it's useful life you would have gotten the notorius "tight" chamber. The longer a reamer is used the more it wears and the smaller diameter hole it produces. A brand new reamer is the one that reams the largest diameter hole....<><.... ;)
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Offline S.S.

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Re: split cases in 17 mk2
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2007, 06:02:04 AM »
The tight chamber was what I was referring to. Forcing a case into a slightly undersized chamber will cause a wrinkle in the case. the case will sometimes split along the wrinkle. Unless a chamber is grossly oversized, the case will normally expand enough to fill it.
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Offline bscman

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Re: split cases in 17 mk2
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2007, 08:51:24 AM »
From the research I've come across, much of the problem is from the brass itself rather than the chamber (though it likely has much to do with it).

If you consider the size of the .22mag case, and how much resizing is done to create the .17HMR (or hm2 for that matter), the % in change of size is pretty large. Re-working the brass this much can cause a host of problems, one of which is becoming somewhat brittle.
If you look at unfired cartridges you can see the striations in the neck area do to the stresses the case has been put through during it's initial sizing. A little heat and pressure can cause one of the weak striations to split rather easily.

The manufacturers of the ammo have been contacted on this subject many times, as well as different firearm manufacturers...the general consensus is that it isn't that big of a deal. It isn't affecting velocity, or causing gas leaks back through the bolt. It isn't resulting in jams, chamber erosion, or anything else (or so they say).

My marlin 917v has 2-3 split necked cases per box of 50...my group size doesn't see any difference.
While i still keep an eye on the spent brass, I'm discounting it as not much of a problem....it seems quite common across all platforms--and has been discussed to death at rimfire central.

That being said, firing out of battery is a huge issue. It seems to be very common with the Remington 597 series of rifles chambered in the .17's.
The consensus is the small bottle neck cartridge requires a more strict chamber cleaning regimine than your normal .22lr/.22mag. A small amount of powder residue (with I know my HMR leaves plenty) in the chamber can cause the round to keep from fully seating.
This is why many semi-auto rifles have slightly looser chambers--for ease of extraction, and better reliability. Unfortunately, this usually turns into a deficiency in accuracy as well--something those .17 shooters don't want to see.

Last would be issues with conversion kits. The .17hm2 conversions require extra weight in the bolt, or a stiffer recoil spring to keep the cycling process (blowback design) from starting too early. If the correct stiffness is not acheived, it is possible for the case to be extracted before the pressure has relieved enough--and you end up with powder and gas in the face.

I guess what I'm saying is...I wouldn't be caught dead with a semi-auto .17...as there are too many issues with them, not necessarily due to manufacturing flaws, but when you consider their miniature size and shape and of cartridge...too many things can cause too big of problems in a blow-back designed semi-auto.

Offline TrenchMud

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Re: split cases in 17 mk2
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2007, 12:52:06 PM »
A Crazy question, But you havn't been firing any of that other .17 caliber ammo first have you.
It looks kind of like the .17 Mach 2 but is shorter. Agula make it I think it is but the dealer called it something else. It will burst open into a nice flower petal in your chamber and scratch the crap out of your chamber walls trying to get it out. Didn't take but a couple to learn my lesson. I have read other folks say this is OK. But I wouldn't advise doing it. the other one looked like an opened up drywall anchor. Split in three places and bulged open.

Offline jon f

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Re: split cases in 17 mk2
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2007, 12:07:51 AM »
Hi,
    As I said in my original post, the ammo used is CCI 17 mk2 in a brand new cz classic chambered for 17 mk 2.
As far as I know its the shortest 17 rimfire available in Australia. We don't have the 17 aguila here.
My only experience with Aguila ammo was with 22 rimfire back in the late 70s. It was so inconsistant that you could'nt pay me to buy that brand again. I hope they've learnt about quality control by now,                   Cheers  Jon.
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: split cases in 17 mk2
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2007, 02:41:11 AM »
"It will burst open into a nice flower petal in your chamber and scratch the crap out of your chamber walls trying to get it out."

I have never heard of such a thing happening excpet in the above quote.... ???


http://www.jesseshunting.com/articles/guns/category16/41.html

http://www.varminter.com/particles/17pmc.htm
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline Keith L

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Re: split cases in 17 mk2
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2007, 06:39:29 AM »
I never heard that either.  Lots of folks shot the Aguilla for some months prior to being able to get the HM2 which followed the guns availability around here for some reason.  No one I know had any trouble with it.


"It will burst open into a nice flower petal in your chamber and scratch the crap out of your chamber walls trying to get it out."

I have never heard of such a thing happening excpet in the above quote.... ???


http://www.jesseshunting.com/articles/guns/category16/41.html

http://www.varminter.com/particles/17pmc.htm

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Offline S.S.

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Re: split cases in 17 mk2
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2007, 10:57:23 AM »
Trenchmud, Did he call it the .17 High Standard? It is the same round for the most part.
I think the High standard carries a slightly larger powder charge on paper. I have never actually found any loaded rounds that were labeled High Standard though . The .17 Aguila used the standard .22 LR case and the HM2 uses the same length case as the stinger.
This leaves the Aguila case quite a bit shorter. The projectile, being very long and pointed has quite a long ogive and The back of the projectile actually has room to be kicked slightly sideways as it leaves the case before it is fully into the chamber throat. I am sure pressure at that point increases substantially. Thus the damaged cases. Even though it is possible to fire this round in a HM2 chamberd firearm, it is not a safe practice. I am just glad it is no more powerful than it is, or I am sure someone would have already been hurt. Still, it is probably just a matter of time before someone is.
 
Jon f :
  17 HM2 out of a 17 HM2 chambered Barrel .... Just as it is supposed to be ;)
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