Author Topic: 35 whelen and wind  (Read 1293 times)

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Offline fatercat

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35 whelen and wind
« on: March 10, 2007, 12:55:55 PM »
wind was blowing like hexl last week here. wife could not hold her 270 less than 2". my old 35 whelen still prints 1" or less. 2815 fps./ 225 barns triple X. hard to beat.

Offline k3yston3

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Re: 35 whelen and wind
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2007, 09:58:42 AM »
2800+ FPS with a 225?  What is your load?  I am thinking about building a whelen, and that would be phenominal performance!

Offline fatercat

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Re: 35 whelen and wind
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2007, 08:43:47 AM »
62.5 gns reloder 15- rem brass. winchester lr primer. 225 gn. barns tripple shock.

Offline k3yston3

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Re: 35 whelen and wind
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2007, 08:59:38 AM »
62.5 gns reloder 15- rem brass. winchester lr primer. 225 gn. barns tripple shock.

Thanks for the data.  How log of a barrel does you whelen have? 

Offline Sourdough

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Re: 35 whelen and wind
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2007, 10:01:44 AM »
The heavier the bullet the less it is affected by wind.  Gravity is the killer.
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Offline fatercat

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Re: 35 whelen and wind
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2007, 01:40:58 PM »
i have a remington 700 cdl with i 24" barrel. i will be getting a ruger #1 with a 22" barrell and will post a load for that when i work it up.

Offline Lone Star

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Re: 35 whelen and wind
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2007, 03:56:47 PM »
Quote
The heavier the bullet the less it is affected by wind....

Nope, it is time of flight alone that determines wind drift.  Time of flight depends on velocity and bullet drag - not bullet weight.  Examples from the Hornady #6 Manual drift tables:

.270 WCF - 130SST(BC=.460) @ 3100 fps  -  drift at 300 yards = 4.4"
.35 Whelen - 225XXX(BC=.403) @ 2800 fps - drift at 300 yards = 6.0"

Sorry, wind drift was not  the reason for the larger .270 groups.


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Offline fatercat

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Re: 35 whelen and wind
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2007, 04:20:43 PM »
my wife weighs half as much as i do. and the wind was moving her around on the bench. that was the difference then.

Offline nomosendero

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Re: 35 whelen and wind
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2007, 04:22:01 PM »
Quote
The heavier the bullet the less it is affected by wind....

Nope, it is time of flight alone that determines wind drift.  Time of flight depends on velocity and bullet drag - not bullet weight.  Examples from the Hornady #6 Manual drift tables:

.270 WCF - 130SST(BC=.460) @ 3100 fps  -  drift at 300 yards = 4.4"
.35 Whelen - 225XXX(BC=.403) @ 2800 fps - drift at 300 yards = 6.0"

Sorry, wind drift was not  the reason for the larger .270 groups.


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Yep, 100% correct! And it doesn't matter if we are talking about 2 very different calibers with a large difference in bullet weight. If for example,
you compare a 270 cal., 140gr. bullet & a 338 cal., 225gr. bullet, if the Bal. Coe. is the same & the muzzle vel. is the same, they will have the same trajectory & wind drift.
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Offline Lone Star

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Re: 35 whelen and wind
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2007, 06:22:52 PM »
Quote
my wife weighs half as much as i do. and the wind was moving her around on the bench. that was the difference then.
I stand corrected, it was the wind afterall!   ;)


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Offline nomosendero

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Re: 35 whelen and wind
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2007, 06:57:43 PM »
Quote
my wife weighs half as much as i do. and the wind was moving her around on the bench. that was the difference then.
I stand corrected, it was the wind afterall!   ;)


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A problem I generally don't have!  ;D
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Offline banen

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Re: 35 whelen and wind
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2007, 03:05:59 PM »
Quote
The heavier the bullet the less it is affected by wind....

Nope, it is time of flight alone that determines wind drift.  Time of flight depends on velocity and bullet drag - not bullet weight.  Examples from the Hornady #6 Manual drift tables:

.270 WCF - 130SST(BC=.460) @ 3100 fps  -  drift at 300 yards = 4.4"
.35 Whelen - 225XXX(BC=.403) @ 2800 fps - drift at 300 yards = 6.0"

Sorry, wind drift was not  the reason for the larger .270 groups.


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I know what you are saying is true for trajectory becuse the ACCELERATION of gravety (9.8 m/s squared) is constant on both bullets.  I am not sure the ACCELERATION caused by a latteral wind would be the same on bullets of two different weights?  I am not saying you are wrong, just not sure that it makes intuitive sense to me.  What is the drift of the 140 grn 270 bullet driven at the same velocity (2800 ie same time of flight)?  If what you say is true, I would expect it to be almost identical to the 6" but just slightly better because of the balistic coeficient. 

It has been a while since I have actually looked at one, but I thought Usually those tables rank order drift in a given caliber being less with heavier bullets which fly slower.  That would imply that BC has a greater impact on drift than velocity (time in flight)? 

I am not looking to be confrontational, I am asking more than stating????  Input appreciated. 

Offline nomosendero

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Re: 35 whelen and wind
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2007, 06:35:38 PM »
Quote
The heavier the bullet the less it is affected by wind....

Nope, it is time of flight alone that determines wind drift.  Time of flight depends on velocity and bullet drag - not bullet weight.  Examples from the Hornady #6 Manual drift tables:

.270 WCF - 130SST(BC=.460) @ 3100 fps  -  drift at 300 yards = 4.4"
.35 Whelen - 225XXX(BC=.403) @ 2800 fps - drift at 300 yards = 6.0"

Sorry, wind drift was not  the reason for the larger .270 groups.


.

I know what you are saying is true for trajectory becuse the ACCELERATION of gravety (9.8 m/s squared) is constant on both bullets.  I am not sure the ACCELERATION caused by a latteral wind would be the same on bullets of two different weights?  I am not saying you are wrong, just not sure that it makes intuitive sense to me.  What is the drift of the 140 grn 270 bullet driven at the same velocity (2800 ie same time of flight)?  If what you say is true, I would expect it to be almost identical to the 6" but just slightly better because of the balistic coeficient. 

It has been a while since I have actually looked at one, but I thought Usually those tables rank order drift in a given caliber being less with heavier bullets which fly slower.  That would imply that BC has a greater impact on drift than velocity (time in flight)? 

I am not looking to be confrontational, I am asking more than stating????  Input appreciated. 


That is what I was refering to in my first post, but it is BC & not weight, High BC usually mean heavier bullets, but not allways due to shape & some heavy flat nose bullets have very low BC values.

And again, you can compare 2 calibers with one having a much heavier bullet, for example a 225gr 338 vs a 140gr. 270, & if the BC & the velocity
is the same (in some cases very close), then the traj. & wind drift will be the same.

Bullet weight is not the issue at all, BC & Vel. is.   I am looking at a #5 Hornady manual, looking at the wind drift chart you will see that they will give the BC value of a bullet for each chart & list the wind drift in 100yd. increments at a given velocity. The  ONLY 2 Factors needed in the wind drift
calculation is BC & VELOCITY,PERIOD.
That takes care of wind drift. Weight & caliber is not the issue.

When you look at the Trajectory of a bullet, you can set up charts with the very same variables, BC & Velocity.  Speer has made charts like that for years, they would show A given BC & then the velocity in 100fps increments. I like this chart because I can plug in other brand bullets if I have the BC level & know the velocity.

So in both the Hornady wind drift charts & the Speer trajectory charts, you can use the data for any brand bullet, regardless of caliber & weight & just match up the BC & Vel, kind of neat.

Bottom line is the velocity & BC are the factors & they don't care what the caliber or weight is. That being said, we have a good combination of vel & BC with the heavier 6.5, 7mm & 30 cal. bullets with corespondingly bigger cases.

At ranges under 500 yards & especially under 400 yards, the very high vel. rounds like the the 204 & 220 Swift are very impressive in trajectory & up to 300 or so in wind drift too, because of vel/time of flight. That is why newbies & & those that shoot at more typical yardages get all giddy over factory traj. charts.

But the longer the range, the more bc takes over in both traj. & wind. That is why long range shooters like thos sleek, high BC bullets & do better even when giving up a little velocity.

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Offline banen

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Re: 35 whelen and wind
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2007, 04:49:43 AM »

nomosendero,
You provided this. 

.270 WCF - 130SST(BC=.460) @ 3100 fps  -  drift at 300 yards = 4.4"
.35 Whelen - 225XXX(BC=.403) @ 2800 fps - drift at 300 yards = 6.0"

Would it be easy to tell us / Do you have the Drift of the 270 130SST if it were pushed at 2800 FPS?  or Conversely the .35 @3100 (that would be pretty fast for that big a bullet).   I am just trying to get a feel for how much of the difference in Drift is due to BC and how much is Velocity?  Thanks

Offline Lone Star

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Re: 35 whelen and wind
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2007, 12:08:02 PM »
Quote
nomosendero, You provided this.....Would it be easy to tell us / Do you have the Drift of the 270 130SST if it were pushed at 2800 FPS?  or Conversely the .35 @3100 (that would be pretty fast for that big a bullet).   I am just trying to get a feel for how much of the difference in Drift is due to BC and how much is Velocity? 

Actually, I provided the drift table.  It is dangerous to try to relate drift to velocity or BC alone since the relative effect of each changes with the velocity and range.  The longer the range, the more important BC is.....usually.   Here you go:

.270 WCF -  130SST @ 2800 fps  -  drift at 300 yards = 5.1"
.358 STA  -  225XXX @ 3100 fps  -  drift at 300 yards = 5.2"


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Offline nomosendero

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Re: 35 whelen and wind
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2007, 05:16:29 PM »
Quote
nomosendero, You provided this.....Would it be easy to tell us / Do you have the Drift of the 270 130SST if it were pushed at 2800 FPS?  or Conversely the .35 @3100 (that would be pretty fast for that big a bullet).   I am just trying to get a feel for how much of the difference in Drift is due to BC and how much is Velocity? 

Actually, I provided the drift table.  It is dangerous to try to relate drift to velocity or BC alone since the relative effect of each changes with the velocity and range.  The longer the range, the more important BC is.....usually.   Here you go:

.270 WCF -  130SST @ 2800 fps  -  drift at 300 yards = 5.1"
.358 STA  -  225XXX @ 3100 fps  -  drift at 300 yards = 5.2"


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Correct, it is not velocity OR BC alone, it is Velocity AND BC as stated in my last post & yse the BC is more important as the range increases, as stated in the last sentence of my previous post.
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Offline banen

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Re: 35 whelen and wind
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2007, 04:09:36 AM »
Lonestar sorry about mixing up who provided the table.  Thank you both for the information.  I appreciate both the comentary and the data.  I just needed to see the numbers, that is just how my brain seems to work.  :)  Cheers