Idaho regs - and a sort of Turnaround

[sabotloader]

As most of you know Idaho is trying to change the ML rules the final decision will be made next month (March), but in preparartion for the new regs I have been woking on developing a new load combination for the new rules.

I think in one of the threads Crow Feather mentions something about getting lead down a fast twist barrel and getting it to shoot accurately. 

   Also, ever try to push lead through a fast twist wuth any speed?  Best of luck   

.  I think I can - I have not finished my load load developement yet but right now the load of choice for me is a 460 grain Bull Shop Conical - shooting @ 1500 fps - this thing is awesome.  Can not do much better than that in my inlines following the previous Idaho rules...

Here is my simple report...

Well, finally got out to do some shooting.  It was a great day, other than the Little Boulder Rock Pit was an ice rink - but I am not complaining.

With the change of ML rules in Idaho I have been learning how to shoot conicals.  I have to use a gun with a "pivoting hammer" an all lead bullet 10/1000's ( I refuse to shoot powerbelts) of the bore and percussion cap ignition...  So I have decided to use my TC Hawken with the GM barrel - now being called "my Idaho White."

My first goal was to get some velocities and then final touch up on sighting in.  In all I got off 41 shots this afternoon - 41 because #40 missed a clay pigeon on the rock wall @ 102 yards... I was just a bit high - so I was forced to shoot #41 - I wanted that pigeon... got it... Gosh it was fun today.

Here is the target I shot with the velocities recorded.  I am really happy with the 90 grains of T7-3f and 1500 fps.  The recoil is not that bad especially for a hunting load.  I could reduce the felt recoil a lot by moving the barrel over into a Renegade stock with a recoil pad but it really doesn't bother me that much so it will probably stay where it is.

The only real difference I could tell between 2f loads and 3f loads were the 3f loads seemed sharper - really quick bang - while the 2f loads seemed to be longer - if any of that makes any sense. No real signs of the "crud ring" and I did swab between shots as this will be the condition of the barrel while hunting.

Right now it does appear that the 90 grain load will be my hunting load.  That should drop a whitetail or an elk out to 100 without a problem if I do my part...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/sabotloader/DHawken.jpg




Here is another development target using 460 grain No Excuses - They also shoot very well

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/sabotloader/D95BBBCBADA34E4AAE562E0DA96F44871.jpg



I am not sure I am losing a whole lot moving from my Remington or White to my "Idaho White"

Thought I would add a ballistic chart also...

[ibebirdman]

I am dealing with the same issue right now and am going to have to learn now to shoot conicals for real now. I have used some of T/C's conicals in the past and have found them very, very hard to load after even one shot. Got any suggestions on easier loading conicals? I have not heard of Bull Shop Conicals. Where can I find them and why do you like them?

By the way, I just got finished talking with our Regional Conservation Officer at IDFG and no PowerBelt bullets (even the all lead) will be legal in the muzzleloader hunts this year.

[captchee]

 well im glad to see you working up a load .  as far as the idaho rules being finalized ? are we back to that again ?
well they are up in PDF forum in the idaho fish and game site . so unless the commission  calls a special meeting , you have the rules .
i aklso submit that IF they do call a special meeting and change the rules again . you will see an out cry to remove the muzzleloading season all together . BUT  instead of worrying about that  i would be watching California .
  There is a real chance of losing lead al together 

http://www.nrdc.org/media/pressreleases/050202a.asp

 just a thought
as to the conicals  this is what i use in my slow twist flintlock . imprinting off hand  in my rifle at 100 yards  is very close to what your getting at 50
http://blackjackhill.com/zencart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_8&products_id=42

[sabotloader]

ibebirdman

I am dealing with the same issue right now and am going to have to learn now to shoot conicals for real now. I have used some of T/C's conicals in the past and have found them very, very hard to load after even one shot. Got any suggestions on easier loading conicals? I have not heard of Bull Shop Conicals. Where can I find them and why do you like them?     

I think it really depends on which rifle and twist you have... The barrel I am shooting is a 1/28 twist Green Mountain SS barrel.  Dan @ bullshop makes several different conicals and they are designed to be slip fit... same with No Excuses...  I am using .503 - 460 grain conical with a BC of about .205.  You insert it with your thumb and then push it home with the ram-rod.  I am not sure that a 1/48 twist would handle a bullet that long... I'll probabably know next week as I will try some in a 1/48 twist Renegade, but I think I am going to have to drop back to a 400 grain concical.

http://bullshop.gunloads.com/




http://members.aol.com/noexcusesb/index.html

Dan (Bull Shop) offers several different sizes so you can really get a slip fit...

Steve (No Excuses) only offers .503 and .540 for a 54 cal.

Both of these shoot great out of the Green Mountain Barrel

What gun are you using?

By the way, I just got finished talking with our Regional Conservation Officer at IDFG and no PowerBelt bullets (even the all lead) will be legal in the muzzleloader hunts this year.

The latest rule posted still says 10/1000 of the bore - so I think that still includes Power Belts....

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/cms/hunt/misc/muzzle_rules.cfm

[captchee]

The latest rule posted still says 10/1000 of the bore - so I think that still includes Power Belts....

 this is true . however the also say "ALL lead"  the words or lead aloy have been removed as well . so , correct me if im wrong but are not the black belts lead and plastic ?

[sabotloader]

captchee

You are right... will have to get clarification as several states have all lead projectile, and allow Power Belts....  The next meeting in March will probably define everything...

[Idaho Ron]

I have a renegade that I put a GM LRH barrel on. Here is a 100 yard group out of mine. The average for mine is 1.25" at 100 yards.  Ron


Here is the rifle.

[huntersmurf]

Say Ron, that target is as good as any that my exposed ignition inlines will do. So much for the unfair advantage myth of the inlines.

[Idaho Ron]

I wonder if the F&G will out law guns like this?   Ron

[huntersmurf]

There is one guy that has posted that he would have liked to see Idaho go even further, flintlock and round balls, nothing else.

Good shooting by the way. Bet you feel like your going to be really handicapped with that gun this year??? not!

[sharps4590]

And the whining stops where?  What's going on up there in the state that used to be my next door neighbor?  Ain't nuthin' that can't be killed with a patched round ball.

Vic

[sabotloader]

sharps4590

You're right, no argument here, and up to this year Idaho had the perfect vehicle (regualtions) to allow that to happen.  To bad we had to change, now this year if that were the the regs (PRB) it would be really interesting to see all the University of Idaho kids that really would have no idea in the world how to hunt with a round ball head and try to shoot something.  There would be more maimed than kilt.  And do not believe for a moment that a lot of green UI students hunts - dey hunt as long as you'll let them and some of these guys are really green.  Using a PRB ball is an art and nothing in the Idaho rules say you have to take an art class to go hunting...  I live here and I see them do it all the time... a whole fraternity of em will go out and go a hunten - dey shoot anything that is brown and moving... at least with the old rules they had a chance of killing what they were hunting... now they will just blow parts off... if they git the gun to go off..

[captchee]

old excuses . we could say the same with folks with bows  or for that mater shotguns in short range weapons .
 myself , yep i would like to see them go back to the original rules . the main problem now is that we have a traditional season that isnt traditional . i remember the same whining going on when they removed lead shot from water fowl use .
 folks P@#$ed and moaned about  having to comply . but comply they did  and now  really no one cares .

 As for the collage hunters ? Will if  that’s you skill in hunting and you care that little about knowing what your doing  then I submit to you that  it wouldn’t matter if they were using a Roundball or  an AK , the same thing would be going to happen .
In fact  i would submit that if you talk to most long time  residents  or life long residents , you will  find that most hold the same opinion of ,,Lets see , can we say , out of state hunters , Californians , transplants , pickers , pickle barrels , road hunters , ATV hunters , 1A plates,  2C plates ,  flatlanders . the list goes on and on
 The new rules are  very much the same as the other states around us . In fact maybe alittle more lax.
 See our season has an old base  and modern weapons were aloud  very recently  in the timeline . I spoke  to allow them .  I still do if they are tightly regulated . However  every year folks want more and more .
 So  now  when I speak to the commission its  to go back to the  old rules . When and if it comes to the point that our season will be  opened up more , then I will speak to remove the muzzleloading season all together . for there is no reasoning to have  such a season that cannot be taken care of by a general season hunt or draw only .
some will not like that . many dint like the changes 15 years ago .   ever 5 years there has been some kind of regulaing change on modern weapons a change  sence then. modern shooter dont like the change now , tradional shooters and many of  us that had a hand in building the season  didnt like the change  15 years ago .

 See  I  and many other hunted with muzzleloaders before we had a season .  I still do 95% of my hunting in the general season with a traditional muzzleloader . so  basically it makes little difference if there is a season or not  .
 The season in this state should be based on its original intent.
    basicly "with a couple acceptions " you get one deer , one elk here .  to tell you the truth i dont see what the state should make it a chose you weapons hunt . once you chose , that all you can use .

[ibebirdman]

Sabotloader

Thanks for the tips on Bullshop Bullets I will give them a shot. Right now I am in between guns. I have a .54 TC Hawken that I built from a kit 15 years ago that I might recall to active duty this year. I am pretty sure that has a 1:48 twist. I am thinking about tracking down a TC Gray Hawk, I just like stainless steel guns for their low maintaince and their looks.

 

[sabotloader]

ibebirdman

These big long conicals may not work to well in a 1/48 twist. so you might consider that.  With this 1/28 GM-LRH barrel I can do anything that I could have done with my inlines (under Idaho rules) so I feel quite forunate that I had one.

I am going to get some 400 grain slip fit conicals and try them in a 1/48  think they might work just fine.  I have a 50 cal 1/48 Renegade barrel coming that I really want to try.

[sabotloader]

captchee

Not interested in building a wall with you so - no comments wouldn't matter anyway just create more animosity.

Hopefully the March meeting will bring some additional thoughts - especially after the exuctive session - probably won't but one can always hope.

At this point in my life, I'm old, I hunt all year with a ML and our ML season (the old ML season) is only 7 days long so it really is no big deal.

[captchee]

Hopefully the March meeting will bring some additional thoughts - especially after the exuctive session - probably won't but one can always hope.

The commission meeting with both the house , senate resource committees as well as the governor was last Thursday and Friday
well i was informed this afternoon that  conserning this topic that  will be considered during the  march meeting is  input on public notification .

[roundball]

For what it's worth, years ago I experimented with some .50cal Hornady Great Plains bullets in a TC Hawken 1:48" caplock and they shot fine...385grn prelubed bullet, Oxyoke wonderwad, 100-110grns 2F

[sabotloader]

roundball

Roundball, first encounter in a very long time.... Thanks for the information, seems to me that i once shot some 380 grain REAL's from my older Hawken and the worked well, I guess that is why I was leaning towards the 400 grain Bull Shops.  I am just learning again how to shoot conicals - not really by choice, but that is another story.  I have been using a .125x.510 nitro card under the conical - although I do have some wonder wads.  I am hoping for a couple of things, back in the old days when i first tried conicals I was just loading them directly on to the powder, and I am one of those guys that may go a couple of weeks without shooting the load - well anyway i ended up contaminating the loads with BB - so I am hoping the shot card will reduce that threat.... My other thought is I hate the thought of lead fouling, and I am thinking the card will insulate the bottom of the conical so that I do not melt it using T7-3f???

What are your thoughts?

[roundball]

The main reasons I use Oxyoke wonderwads with high power hunting loads is to serve as a 'firewall'...either to protect the patch on a round ball or the base of a lead conical to eliminate (or at least minimize) leading.

The use of a hard card that will survive the fire should do the same thing...it'll need to be reasonably thick, certainly snug, and lube will give added insurance it'll survive

[sabotloader]

roundball

The use of a hard card that will survive the fire should do the same thing...it'll need to be reasonably thick, certainly snug, and lube will give added insurance it'll survive

I have picked them up down range and they look fine - so I think they are surviving...

[clodbuster]

My old 50 Renegade has always been fed 385 gr Buffalo bullets over 90 gr of Pyrodex RS and gives 1450fps  and a whale of a recoil.  You da man shootiin' 41 times in one sitting.  Anyway I've only shot deer here in Iowa and it really destroys 'em.  Accuracy is good (for me) holding 2" groups at 75 yards.

[huntersmurf]

And I’ve been thinking. They (IDFG) started this traditional muzzleloader thing a few years ago and it looks to me that all of the units that have mule deer populations are all in the southern half of the state, so for the past several years those southern units have had only traditional muzzleloaders hunting in them. As such F&G should have some harvest numbers for those traditional units and if what F&G says about the inline guns being too good then the harvest numbers for the traditional only units should reflect a decline in harvest, right?

It appears to me that the old muzzleloader rules where there were two different types of seasons, (trad and mod) would have been a great tool for F&G to limit the take (if that is realy true) in those units that are over harvested by simply making those units traditional only. And with several years of having a trad season they should have harvest data to support their claim of overharvest by inlines. If their data does not support the claim of inlines being responsible for too many kills then what is the real reason for the regulation change for the entire state??

[sabotloader]

huntersmurf

As you probably know Idaho did do somewhat of a turn around.  There were enough concerned hunters lodging complaints that a sort of compromise has been worked out for 2008 + a decision to re-address the whole thing this coming year by the commissioners.

The new rules may have even broadened the picture somewhat by allowing what I call modern inlines vs. what we were calling "Idaho legal" inlines into the picture by establishing "short range seasons."  So far the northern portion of the state has moved in this direction.  The comminioners in the south seem to have held steady but it will all be addressed again.

You can see the information I posted at this site plus the state is utting out lots of information on their sight...

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=2042217

[captchee]

sabot shooter , understand something please .
 traditional  shooters had no part in this change , it came right from the management section of the fish and game . the only proposal made  by traditionalist was to define those areas classified as traditional muzzleloader weapons  areas  so as to   state  “side lock only” .
this would not have effeted the general muzzleloading areas in any way
As you well know this was not accepted , why im not sure  though it was suported by both the enforcment and managment section of the F&G  and rocmmended to the commission by those sections .

 as to the meeting on the 7th . i was there . i can tell you there were around 30 people  in the room .
 i counted 7 people against the rules change and  probably  20 for it  who also spoke .
 myself i spoke for managment .  i cant tell you the numbers for  writen comment  past most everyone got up and spoke .


 there also will be a change in the commission shortly  and a new member appointed . who that will be the replacement we don’t know .
Also you should know  the information over the last year  that the commission received was  information directly from manufactures themselves  many of them sales adds  or manufacture data .

 So you guys are going to have to  rebuke the manufactures numbers themselves .
 Not traditionalist.
Its going to be an up hill fight sabot shooter  especially when you have  companies like Pedersoli stating that the two weapons should not  nor ever have been combined
 
Also know this  the commission is  calling  a few  folks who have  knowledge in the areas of gunsmithing , modern and traditional shooting .  Historic weapon design knowledge and bolistics.

Past that on the public side , as I understand it .  there are already  hunters  and residential land owners calling complaining about this move .
 They simply are not happy with modern muzzleloaders being unregulated in short range weapons hunts .

 End the end this is a big fight . I can pretty much guarantee you that things will not be the same  . For sure , it’s a long way from being over .
 good luck anyway

[captchee]

alos here are the proposals , the should be out at any time  but here is a  early look for ya
i dint see them mention on the other site you linked to so im asuming you didnt get them

The Idaho Fish and Game Commission Thursday, March 8, accepted recommended changes to big game hunting seasons with only a few exceptions.

Department of Fish and Game staff recommendations included additional muzzleloader hunting opportunities for mule deer, white-tailed deer, elk and pronghorn antelope; increased antlerless white-tailed deer hunts to reduce depredations, vehicle collision and urban deer problems; and a quality whitetail hunting area in eastern Idaho.

Recommendations also included adjusting elk permit numbers in response to population changes and adjusting antlerless elk hunts to reduce depredation concerns; changes in pronghorn, black bear and mountain lion hunts in response to population changes; and applying the motorized vehicle rule in Unit 57.

Commissioners adopted the recommendations with several muzzleloader hunts changed to short-range-weapons to allow the use of inline weapons.

Panhandle Region Commissioner Tony McDermott proposed that muzzleloader-only hunts in units 4, 7 and 9 as well as the December 2-9 spike-elk-only muzzleloader hunts be changed to short-range weapons hunts.

Clearwater Region Commissioner Alex Irby proposed that muzzleloader seasons in units 10A and 16 be changed to short-range weapons

[sabotloader]

captchee

I did not link to that particular post but I have seen it.  The one I linked to to provided this informaton is is the most informative statement I have seen...

Idaho Fish and Game commissioners Thursday, March 9, agreed to take another look at controversial definitions of muzzleloader weapons adopted in January.

The new rules have raised a furor of complaints from some hunters whose modern inline weapons no longer are legal in muzzleloader-only hunts. The rules require muzzleloaders have a pivoting hammer, an exposed ignition with only flint or percussion caps, use only loose black powder or loose synthetic black powder, and bullets must be within .010 inch of the bore diameter.

So-called modern inline weapons still are legal in short-range weapon and other hunts.

Those complaints led commissioners Tony McDermott of the Panhandle Region and Alex Irby of the Clearwater Region to propose the commission examine in more detail the technology and data on which their January decision was made.

The decision to reexamine the muzzleloader issue was not in response to complaints, McDermott said. But if that decision was based on inaccurate or incomplete information, perhaps it should be changed.

But any changes would not take effect before the 2008 hunting seasons.

In setting big game hunting seasons, McDermott and Irby proposed changing several muzzleloader hunts to short-range weapons hunts in their regions that would allow the use of inline weapons. Short-range weapons include many modern inline muzzleloaders, archery and shotguns.

The commission adopted the big game seasons with the changes to short-range weapons hunts over the objections of commissioners Randall Budge of the Southeast Region and Wayne Wright of the Magic Valley Region. Budge and Wright resisted the change, saying it essentially sidestepped the new muzzleloader rules in two individual regions without any discussion of the issue.

McDermott agreed it was a band-aid solution and suggested the commissioners reexamine the evidence on which they had based their January decision. He suggested the commissioners invite some technical experts to present data on the differences between more traditional muzzleloaders and modern in-line weapons.

"We need to quantify the effectiveness," Wright said.

Budge noted that the line between the weapons was not so clear after all. The commission needs to clearly define what short-range means and then set hunt opportunities.

Other commissioners agree they need to examine how they have allocated the opportunities to hunt in this state. They agreed to take another look at the technology and to determine whether they made the right or wrong decision in January.

No date was set for further discussion.

[Idaho Ron]

Northern Idaho has a large number of whitetail deer. The Southern end has Mule deer is spotty numbers. Some areas have a lot of deer and some other places have almost no deer at all. I talked to Wayne Wright before the meeting. I urged him to keep the traditional hunt the way they made it. I also urged him to keep his word and if the rule stays then give us better hunts. I thanked him for what we have. It was not all that long ago we didn't have a ML hunt within 120 miles of Twin Falls. Now we have a few hunts and we don't have to drive to Northern Idaho or Eastern Idaho to hunt. I told him I felt that we need to continue to provide a oppertunity to hunt with a ML with QUALITY hunts not just cow and doe hunts. I wrote a letter and gave it to the F&G with recomendations for hunts and they were GOOD hunts, maybe too good. Only a couple were used but I was not happy with what we got at all.
The F&G is saying that they need to restrict the inlines to bring down sucess rates. ML hunts actually have a higher sucess rate in most cases than the regular rifle hunt. Does this mean a ML is a more efficient weapon than a scoped 300 win mag?
I don't think that removing inlines is going to bring this sucess rate down. Most of the guys I know that hunt with ML are serious hunters. They will use anything they have to to hunt big bucks. They would use a spear if they had to. Big muley bucks are a passion for them and mysef. If you look at the traditional hunts here in the southern end you will find some of the biggest bucks taken in Idaho are taken in the ML hunts.  To talk to some of the guys in the F&G you would think that ML are the demise of Muledeer. In fact the Commission allowed MORE technology for Bows, and They are going to allow More technology in Rifle scopes. They are not the problem, the Muzzleloader is. Ya right! Anyway I hope the rule stays at least for us here in the Southern end.  Ron

[captchee]

your right ron , cant dispute that .
 However  low man eats last   and starves first .
That seems the way of it