Author Topic: 30-30 Ackley Improved (Read 3238 times)

44 Man · « **on:** March 10, 2007, 03:04:57 PM »

I know this has been touched on before, but I haven't seen any specifics. I will be picking up my 30-30 in a week or so. When I mentioned it to my friend (and local gunsmith) he suggested that I could quickly and easily make it an Ackley Improved as he has the chamber reamer for it. We booted it around a little and I think I am going to do it. I'm not a velocity nut as I know that a properly designed bullet will do it's job at the proper velocity. But at the same time, another 100 or 150 fps of velocity won't hurt either. I'm looking for pro's and con's and ideas here. I reload so that is not an issue. What do you think? 44 Man

Roudy · « **Reply #1 on:** March 10, 2007, 04:22:24 PM »

44 Man,

Many years ago I bought an H&R 157 30-30 and a gunsmith made me the same offer. After thinking it over some I decided not to go with the 30-30 AI. Had it been my only rifle I may have, but at the time, and now, if I need a little more velocity I just use the 30-06.

However, the whole point in collecting and shooting firearms, from my point of view, is to enjoy your hobby. If you want a 30-30 AI then by all means you should do it!

Roudy

Graybeard · « **Reply #2 on:** March 10, 2007, 06:02:48 PM »

It's probably been said a million times but let me make it a million and ONE.

You really cannot make an Ackley Improved anything from a Handi or a TC unless you're cutting a virgin chamber. Yes you can run a reamer in and yes you'll come out with something relatively close but it will NOT be a true AI chamber.

Worse still is the darth of pressure tested loads for it and the over abundance of STUPID loads for it on the internet. Some of the loads listed in some places are just plain dangerous.

John Barness (who some times says things bording almost on brilliance and at others makes me wonder when he lost his mind) put a lot of research and study into the subject and has come up with a theory which seems to hold water. It says that you can gain 1% increase in velocity for a 4% increase in case capacity. I heard something very similar before I ever heard of him but he seems bound and determine to take credit and I have no problem with giving it to him really.

I once measured several .30-30 cases and then fire formed them and measured them again for water capacity. I got an average of about 5% increase in capacity from the parent .30-30 to the AI case. Yes this was in a virgin chamber. So if Barness is right you should be able to gain about 1.25% velocity using the AI over the parent .30-30. If we call it 2400 fps with a 150 grain bullet which I suspect few barrels will deliver you'd be able to see about 2430 fps safely at equal pressures in a .30-30 AI. WOW, whoop de doo I can get 30 more fps.

Sorry but it just don't make sense guys. You'll be told by plenty of folks they have gotten 200-300 fps increase in their AI barrels and I don't doubt it. BUT they could have done the same before was an AI if they had run the pressues to that same level.

Do as you wish but it really makes no logical sense and just chances you blowing up a gun from unsafe load data that is everywhere and no pressure tested data around to compare it to.

omcforever · « **Reply #3 on:** March 10, 2007, 06:55:45 PM »

had one of my handis re-chambered to 30-30 ai by a local gunsmith a few years back here in sc(not kenny jarret). It was done correctly(not just reaming). he did some relocating-re-welding-re-aligning and on and on,,,,,,,,neat round to look at/175-200 fps gain with 125 bt's but I would not say 350 dollars was worth it.(I do have a beanfield Jarret rifle in 7mm STW-SWEET/sometimes we all have more money than brains) And yes, GB is right on the just reaming the 30-30/will not make a true AI round.

greyling · « **Reply #4 on:** March 10, 2007, 06:56:55 PM »

I can't really offer you pro's and con's, but I am looking at getting a 30/30 barrel and doing the same thing so let me know how yours turns out. Roudy makes a good point: if you really want more gun use a 270 or 30-06, but I like being different. it has charm. I like ackley. I LOVE my 257 AI. I like not having to share my ammo. I like being able to use theirs. Lee 30/30 ackley dies are cheap too. http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=816901

the rest of this is excerpts I have been collecting on the subject for the past couple of months. it might be helpful, it might not.

the standard advice Mr. Ackley used to give if the cartridge is a standard 40 degree shoulder, minimum body taper Ackley Improved: "Begin with the data for the parent cartridge and add 5% to both the starting and the maximum load"

"I've been rechambering rifles and hunting handguns for the 30-30 Ackley Improved for over 20 years now and it is a most excellent round...
My son as well as my self both shoot the 30-30 Ackley Improved out of rechambered N.E.F. single shot rifles. After rechambering, trigger jobs and recrowning, plus the addition of muzzle brakes, I'll tell you what. For an inexpensive little rifle like these N.E.F. Handi-rifles are, they have got to be some of the most accurate guns out there for what you pay for them...
We both shoot Hornady's 155 gr. A-MAX bullets for deer and out to 300 yards, we have no need for anything any bigger. For hogs, we shoot SPEER's 165 gr. Grand Slam bullet and it speaks with much authority when it connects...
To answer your question, yes, you can reach and slightly exceed 2,400 fps. with a 170 gr. bullet out of a 30-30 Ackley Improved chambering as long as you have at least a 22" barrel and stick with some of the slower burning powders. We are pushing the Hornady A-Max to just over 2,500 fps. and accuracy wise, shooting from a bench, we can consistantly keep 3-shot groups under 3/4" at 100 yards and an occasional "Mickey Mouse" group with all three shots touching at the same distance...
Graphing results with BLC2 and Winchester 748 demonstrated that Hodgdon 4895 and H 335 were actualy a little more efficient. The graphs will also show that Hodgdon Varget while coming up short in pure velocity is a little more uniform shot to shot than Reloader 15.
Think about it before you have a chamber reamed. Mic McPherson. Dale Storey, Noonen and other gunsmiths are doing the work for a reasonable fee."

http://www.handloads.org/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=30/30%20Ackley&Weight=150&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=
http://www.gmdr.com/lever/3030atext.htm
http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/w3030ack.html

joshco84 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 10, 2007, 07:06:22 PM »

I personally would doubt the 2400 out of 30/30 AI out of a handi (personally do see it)

JUST MY QUESTION HERE WHY NOT 2505/7MM08/308/3006/243/4570/357/270/3030/

Jack Ryan · « **Reply #6 on:** March 10, 2007, 07:47:44 PM »

What can a 30/30AI do that a 30/06 can't do better, faster, and safer?

I bet nobody can use my '06 ammo in their 30/30AI.

44 Man · « **Reply #7 on:** March 11, 2007, 01:02:08 AM »

Thanks for the good info. As for 'why not a 30-06', plain and simple, I found this for $120 and have not found a used 30-06 for that kind of money. (I'm open to 30-06, 270, 280, or 243 also if the opportunity presents itself at that kind of price) I have been an avid pistol hunter for 35 years but am now feeling the need of a couple of rifles (eyesight, not as steady, etc). Other than a few .22 for when the grandkids come over, I only own a Marlin lever in .35 rem, and a BC in 45-70. Now this 30-30 will make three. I find after buying the BC (that was used also) that I really love these little single shots. I have always believed that 'light and handy' was way ahead of 'big and heavy' anyday. My father started me out on a 28" octagon barrel Winchester 1873 in 32-20. Talk about a heavy rifle for a young'n to carry around the woods. I also figure this 30-30 will be my 'let the Grandkids use it' rifle for when they are old enough to hunt. Teaching them on a single shot seems to make better hunters. They take a little more time to do it right when they know they only have the one opportunity. This is still a tough decision. For my use, I still like the idea of the AI. But for a gun that might get handed down to Grandkids at some point, leaving it stock 30-30 also makes sense. What I think would also be neat would be a 7-30 waters case necked out to .30 cal. Call it a 30-30 Waters. Of course that would have no advantage over a 30-30 AI but it's still a fun idea. Thanks for your input. 44 Man

alan in ga · « **Reply #8 on:** March 19, 2007, 02:17:14 AM »

I would like to know why one cannot make a "true" 30/30 Ackley Improved out of a 30/30 Win factory Handi Rifle?

quote-"You really cannot make an Ackley Improved anything from a Handi or a TC unless you're cutting a virgin chamber. Yes you can run a reamer in and yes you'll come out with something relatively close but it will NOT be a true AI chamber."

Thanks,
Alan in GA

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #9 on:** March 19, 2007, 03:01:46 AM »

Alan

The problem is that to make a true AI , you need to set the barrel back 1 full turn to get a crush fit and as the Handi does not have this option you will never get a true AI chamber , what you will end up with is some sort of a modified 30-30 win / AI . and you will not be able to shoot 30/30 factory ammo like you can in a true AI chamber.

stimpy

naedlaen · « **Reply #10 on:** March 19, 2007, 03:41:08 AM »

Case dimensions for 30-30
http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd3030winchester.jpg

Case dimensions for 30-30 Ackley
http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd3030ackleyimproved.jpg

I read this as the shoulder is moved foward past any chance of getting a crush fit on a 30-30 case. The neck length is shorter on the Ackley by a significant amount. This is because the rim provides the head space. For cartridges that headspace on the shoulder, you need a crush fit on the parent to have a true Ackley chamber. These are the cartridges that require a barrel setback. The 30-30 AI is not much different than reaming a .357 Mag to .357 Max and shooting the Mag in it.

Another option would be the 30-40 Krag, but his gunsmith has a 30-30 AI reamer on hand.

Neal

alan in ga · « **Reply #11 on:** March 19, 2007, 03:45:22 AM »

that is true only of the rimless rounds.
All the RIMMED rounds do NOT need 'barrel setback'.
The rim gap is the only thing holding a 30/30 factory case in a new Ackley Improved chamber. ALL the body is newly formed except maybe the back few hundreths. Old shoulder does not contact the new AI chamber at all as it will be blown forward. Some of the old 30/30 neck will become 'body' as well.
I've built several Ackley Improveds including the 30/30 and just wondered if I was missing something.

Rimless? Yup,,your right,,rimmed,,a different matter altogether.
I've purchased "Improved" bolt action rifles that were as mentioned,,not set back correctly. Bought them nice and cheap as a matter of fact

. A few gunsmiths are running AI reamers in without barrel setback. Hopefully they are explaining to the rifle owner that they now own an "excessive headspace" rifle and need,,,or I should say HAVE TO prepare custom cases. Fireforming factory in those chambers without some method of correcting the excess headspace is dangerous. Oiling cases,,seating bullets jammed into the lands,,all "will work",,but it all comes down to ----reaming shouldn't have been done in the first place.

I just pull the barrels,,cut a thread off and rechamber a smidge,,,WITH the correct CRUSH fit.
BTW,,,my Handi I reamed to 30/30 Ack Imp would touch the first three bullets at 100,,then open up WIDE on #4 and #5 bullets of a 5 shot group. But,,that's JUST what I wanted,,a nice TIGHT fit of the barrel breech to the frame. When a Handi rifle has an enclosed section ~lug to barrel face!~,,it will warm up with a few shots,,,and as that area of the barrel warms it will expand,,and it has nowhere to go as it is locked between the frame lug and frame face. But I'd rather have that setup than a loose fit that won't do as well with the first three cold shots.

Fun stuff,,glad to 'find' GrayBeard after 3 years away!
You guys are going to make me have to go buy a Handi Rifle again. I've had a half dozen or more,,sold them all. Now I'm having withdrawals after finding ALL THESE TINKERING POSTS with the Handi Rifle!!!
I still want to make a 17 Ackley Hornet.
Alan in GA

44 Man · « **Reply #12 on:** March 22, 2007, 04:06:46 AM »

I talked to my gunsmith and he said there were no problems with a handi. He said once the cases are fireformed, (and he recommened using new factory 30-30 ammo, no 'once fired' brass) set my sizing die to just kiss the shoulder and I would be fine. That's what I did working with 7-30. Neck sized the 30-30 cases down to 7mm, then fireform them to 7-30 chamber. This was a TC so I sized them only to where the action would close with just the slightest hint of drag and effort. So the 30-30 AI should be the same. Minimal sizing so they are headspacing mostly off the shoulder and rim together. You just have to use your head for some of these things. 44 Man

handirifle · « **Reply #13 on:** March 22, 2007, 09:10:10 AM »

I think if the barrel can be set back it's best, but without it you end up with a shorter neck than the "true" AI version. Yes you can get the shoulder up there, but it will have a shorter neck. May or may not cause an issue.

The biggest advantage I read about with an AI or similar version, is extended case life.

mt3030 · « **Reply #14 on:** March 22, 2007, 01:56:06 PM »

Quote from: stimpylu32 on March 19, 2007, 03:01:46 AM

....you will not be able to shoot 30/30 factory ammo like you can in a true AI chamber.

B.S.!! What's the difference of going from the 22 Hornet to the K-Hornet or the 30-30 to the 30-30 Improved. Been there, done it. If it riles others to use the "A" word, fine. Let's call it the 30-30K. But you can shot factory 30-30 Winchester loads the 30-30K and reload the 30-30K cases just fine with the AI dies. But for Goodness sake, lets not call it an "A" Improved. Might make the old man roll over in his grave, not to mention getting fellow Graybeard members upset.
And let's not even start on the 30-40K. (Gott in Himmell!!)

mt3030 · « **Reply #15 on:** March 22, 2007, 02:04:16 PM »

Quote from: handirifle on March 22, 2007, 09:10:10 AM

The biggest advantage I read about with an AI or similar version, is extended case life.

You are probably correct about the Ackley Improves. But I know that it is absolutely correct with the 30-30K and 30-40Ks. Better case life, due to less brass flow, thereby preventing thinning the web area.

Fred M · « **Reply #16 on:** March 22, 2007, 02:25:21 PM »

mt3030
Got im Himmel, you got that right. We had this discussion ones before and I thought it best to stay out of it. Simply there are too many who think they know about the subject, but lack total understanding.

The big problem I see turing a 30-30 Handy into a 30-30 imp are the Handi barrels
with their off bore dimensions.

mt3030 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 22, 2007, 02:59:16 PM »

Quote from: Fred M on March 22, 2007, 02:25:21 PM

The big problem I see turing a 30-30 Handy into a 30-30 imp are the Handi barrels
with their off bore dimensions.

Fred: You got that right. That's why I found an early SB2 with the cut rifling for my last 30-40 rechamber. One of the older Model 157 or 158 would make a good candidate for a rechamber too. They had very good barrels then. In fact H&R was providing barrels to other manufactures and assemblers in the '60s. I have an old Rolling Block with a H&R 30-30 barrel.

greyling · « **Reply #18 on:** March 22, 2007, 07:55:51 PM »

fred, I've been following this thread because I am considering reaming out a 30/30 myself but am not a gunsmith. What do you mean by off bore dimensions?

nomosendero · « **Reply #19 on:** March 23, 2007, 02:14:16 AM »

Quote from: Fred M on March 22, 2007, 02:25:21 PM

mt3030
Got im Himmel, you got that right. We had this discussion ones before and I thought it best to stay out of it. Simply there are too many who think they know about the subject, but lack total understanding.

The big problem I see turing a 30-30 Handy into a 30-30 imp are the Handi barrels
with their off bore dimensions.

Yes, I agree. Actually that Wildcat would be the 30-30OC , I understand it enjoys a near cult following.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #20 on:** March 23, 2007, 10:37:34 AM »

What's in a name?

Quote

If it riles others to use the "A" word, fine.

Why is so difficult for Handi owners to call this converted cartridge by it's appropriate name? I don't think anyone is saying you can't make a workable cartridge out of reaming a 30-30 Handi...I know I never have.....I have argued with some on the merits of making a 40,00 cup load into a 50,000- 60,000 cup load...just as others here have...but to call a cartridge an Ackley Improved when it is dimensionally different isn't technically correct and is totally improper to do.. This is the name of the game here...giving technically correct information out...so there is no question about it...

Folks here know they can load the Improved cartridges in a similar fashion....They use a AI reamer to make the cut chamber..and can even use AI dies to load with at times....but...it that still doesn't make them the same cartridge...I know some will say " for all practical purposes " they are...but there are other cartridges with different names that are dimensionally similar that go by their correct name...Why is it that some folks think it's ok to treat the AI different?

In all walks of life..we have things that are similar..but goes by different names...Automobiles/SUV's/Wrenches/Plants/Animals...the list is endless...and for all practicle purposes they are extremely similar...but they have noticeable differences...In this instance...it is a measurable difference...We have other cartridges that are similar..but have measurable differences...This one comes to mind...A 38 Special is different than a 357 Magnum...just as the 357 is different than the 360 DW...just as the 360 DW is different than than the 357 Max...For a rifle cartridge..I'll use Ackley's own choice...(pg 163 vol I ) a .219 Wasp..as compared to a .219 Zipper...in his words..." For all practicle purposes the same design except for the length"

If you have a true AI...it will be cut to a specific AI dimension.. if it isn't...then it should be called an Improved...There is no shame in calling it that...Why is it that folks here have issues with calling it by it's appropriate name? I honestly believe that some folks here like to argue and debate this issue...just for S&G's...others truly want to do some kind of improvement on them..and get caught up in the resulting arguments...

Each Handi rifle chamber is different...and..in some cases...exceedingly different...with the same cartridge...Yes...the rim cut out will stop the cartridge from going up into the chamber...unlike a non-rimmed cartridge on the ejector barrels...Even then...there are differences in the rim cut out depth..and on older Handi's..how much spring tension there is for the rim to be held against the breech face..With the new extractor barrels that many here dislike..this isn't going to be an issue...with any type of Improved re chambering My choice for doing any Improved cartridges..do them on the new extractor barrels...You stand a better chance of having solid support against the breech...and Parker did talk about that as I'll discuss in a bit....

PO Ackley was a pretty smart individual..and his improvements have been hashed to death...not only here...but all over the web...His books are a good read for those interested in them...and if a person actually reads everything he has said on his rimmed cartridge conversions...they will see that he said about this one.......Some feel they can make a 308 out of a 30-30 doing this conversion...They can increase the velocity...but they are increasing the pressures as well...and without adequate pressure testing..or verified loading data..folks need to err on the conservative side when doing this type of reloading..and we need here need to tell all newbies to this to do the same...

PO Ackley was not talking about a break open action rifle when he wrote about this cartridge..he was writing about improving lever guns...Handi's are different actions and a person cannot assume they should/need to be loaded the same way..The lever guns cam the cartridge into the chamber and are held tight against the breech by the bolt...Handi's don't have this...and the older ejector barrels hold them even looser against the breech than the new extractor barrels...This is by ways of a spring..not solid contact..Most Handis have different depths at the rim notch....so the spring is what is holding it to the breech face...and will allow some movement

PO Ackley's own words...(pg 157 Vol I )...I quote;
The question of headspace for improved cartridges of rimmed design is not as complex as for rimless since the rim of the case is the only point which seriously has to be considered and of course rim thickness remains the same whether the chamber is standard or improved...Therefore,if the head space is minimum for one,it will be minimum for the other although slightly greater care must be exercised to make sure the tolerances for the improved chamber are held to a minimum...The contact at the shoulder is of no importance with the rimmed case since there is full support at the rim...............

What does all of this mean....It means this...In a perfect chamber with solid support of the rim in full contact where the rim is fully against the bottom of the rim notch in the chamber end and fully against the breech face (not a spring holding it against the breech and up off the rim notch as in the ejector handi barrels) all would be as Ackley says it should be...BUT...you won't ever get this in a ejector Handi barrel...and you won't ever get this in a Handi that is starting off with 2 or 3 thousandth frame/barrel gap...and you don't know from 1 rifle to the next just how much headspce your starting off with...We all know Handi chambers aren't minimum spec'd....What you will wind up with is brass that is swelling up at the case head...and brass that has stretched significantly on it's initial firing...How much...I don't know...I do know this though....ever rifle will be different..

He shows and tells of fire forming a 25/35 Winchester for his illustration...and says (pg 157 Vol I) "When this cartridge is fired in an improved chamber..it will expand in all directions except to the rear where the head is being tightly supported by the bolt or the breech block. With rimmed or belted cases the shoulders can sometimes be moved forward 1/8 of an inch without rupturing the brass..." Hmmm...well since the case is not fully supported by a bolt or by the breech face...only with spring tens..ion looks like it will be stretching somewhat to the rear...defiantly not an ideal way of doing it..or I don't think he would have mentioned it....

Some folks like to say he is saying you can do this every time without rupturing the brass...He isn't...he is saying you may sometimes...big difference when starting with a full house factory load don't you think...especially since it is moving in both directions in a Handi? If this is how you do things...well...go for it...Me personally...I would rather have the case held tightly in place just like if I was re-loading for an Improved...which is exactly how I would load for it..But...like I said...this is just me....Different ways of skinning the cat I suppose...

Taken as a whole what does this mean for us Handi holics...It means...BE CAREFUL...Things aren't always the same for each of us...Handi barrels aren't built exactly the same...Read everything PO says about doing this...and just don't take out what he said out of context so that you can justify what you want to do..Have fun with it...and just don't try to turn it into something it's not...

Sorry for the long post...I know how it bores some folks like Fred

Mac

mt3030 · « **Reply #21 on:** March 23, 2007, 12:07:23 PM »

Quote from: Mac11700 on March 23, 2007, 10:37:34 AM

...I know how it bores some folks like Fred

?

Mac11700 · « **Reply #22 on:** March 23, 2007, 12:13:27 PM »

MT...it was just something he said on a different post

Mac

Mac11700 · « **Reply #23 on:** March 23, 2007, 12:36:30 PM »

The last thing I forgot to add to my other post was something Parker said on page 158 of Vol I...he said

All of this means that rimmed and belted cases are slightly easier to deal with when designing or fire forming improved cases.On the other hand,if an attempt to fire a rimmed cartridge in an improved chamber which does have excessive head space to a degree,they have a tendency to separate just ahead of the solid head of the case exactly the same as the rimless cases do

Slapping a factory full house load into a chamber that may have a head space issue to begin with..isn't the smartest thing a person can do... Get your guns checked out for this before making any improvements...that way there won't be any nasty surprises waiting to happen when you do...I feel it's better to err on the cautious side than to rush in blindly..

Mac

quickdtoo · « **Reply #24 on:** March 23, 2007, 12:48:54 PM »

That's a very good point, Mac! I just checked both of my .30-30s, the rim recesses are .064" and .065" deep, I checked several .30-30 rims, they're .059"-.060" thick, so that gives .004"-.005" headspace in addition to any frame gap that may exist. Couple that with too much shoulder spacer, and there could be problems.

I've been thinking about rechambering the Handi to Improved, but I think I'll do a chamber cast first, just to see what I'm up against. But there's always the option of fire forming with a false shoulder to achieve the best chamber fit and brass life from the get go.

Tim

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,107088.msg1098309995.html#msg1098309995

Mac11700 · « **Reply #25 on:** March 23, 2007, 01:20:42 PM »

I don't want folks thinking I am saying they will have problems...but they may have them...Big difference...Which is why PO said this...Therefore,if the head space is minimum for one,it will be minimum for the other although slightly greater care must be exercised to make sure the tolerances for the improved chamber are held to a minimum.. Sloppy work has no place here...and you have to keep the spec's to a minimum for firing factory ammo in them...If your rifle chamber dimensions are way off to begin with..and you do a sloppy chamber reaming job...it will only compound the problems..The head space has to be minimum to begin with...How much slop can you get away with? Good question.....PO said...The amount of fire forming possible depends on the quality and condition of the brass in the case.. He had a lot of faith in good brass...so your guess is as good as mine..I much prefer to have exact measurements....meaning minimum chambers & head space...

Fire forming the way you showed folks..is a good way...but to me...it kinda negates doing this conversion in the first place...Now if MT3030 would do some more testing with his 30-40 AI on a good strong SB-2 frame...folks could see what I know about it and the possibilities it can be loaded up to...I think that would be a more viable conversion...and it was one of Ackley's favorites...

I may wind up doing this if I can get a hold of one of the new extractor barrels and fit it to my 338-06A Square dedicated frame...since I have a spare gray lam foe arm for it..

Mac

mt3030 · « **Reply #26 on:** March 23, 2007, 01:49:07 PM »

Mac & Tim:
Call me when you've done it.

alan in ga · « **Reply #27 on:** March 26, 2007, 04:02:22 PM »

I read your post,,and I'm still not sure where you are coming from on your reference to P.O. Ackley and his theorys. I have a guess,,,are you saying that a Handi Rifle in 30/30 Win will not make a true Ackley Improved because the rifle may have not been correctly headspaced at the factory,,,in it's origional 30/30 Win chambering??
If it was not correctly headspaced as a 30/30 Winchester, would you say it also is not a true 30/30 Winchester? You went into great detail, but I guess I'm just not following you. Hope you can simplifiy it for me!
Thanks,
Alan in GA.

44 Man · « **Reply #28 on:** March 27, 2007, 02:13:48 AM »

Ok guys, let's call this a draw. When I fireformed 30-30 to 7-30 Waters, I necked down and formed a false shoulder at the neck that was a crush fit in the chamber between the false neck and the breach. When you fireform that way there is no headspace issue as the case is a crush fit. Subsequent reloading will headspace on the shoulder as long as the shoulder is not moved back during resizing. IF, and it is still a theoretical 'if' the rim cut is oversize, it is not an issue that way. That is likely what should be done as proper reloading practice here for the 30-30AI, or Improved, or the 30-30 Crawford (my last name) or what ever we wish to call it. (I'll still be using a 30-30AI reamer, so I guess that is what I will call it) Use the AI reamer on the chamber, then neck new brass up a little then back down forming a false shoulder that will eliminate any potential headspace problems. As you quoted Ackley himself, the 'potential' for headspace problems is minimal with a rimmed round anyway. Maybe I'll use a 7-30 reamer with a larger pilot. I'll end up with an 'Improved' chamber and no one can fuss about what to call it! Let's get back to the original intent here. All I was after was a little more velocity and a more straight sided case with a minimum of work to get there. I was not intended to get into an argument about the 'true dimentions' of an AI chamber, or having you guys throwing rocks at each other (or me). I had just wanted to know if those who had tried it were pleased with the results. And it does sound like those I have heard from who have tried it with TC's (same break action and same potential headspace problems) are very pleased with their AI's. 44 Man

sluggo · « **Reply #29 on:** March 27, 2007, 04:29:17 AM »

Whew!!!!