sharps vs high wall

[fortress49]

Hello,

I am curious about the Sharps rifles and the 1885 highwall rifles.  I currently shoot a 45-70 in my NEF Handi Rifle and I love the cartridge.  However, I would like to get a more "traditional" rifle to shoot the cartridge.  I will be using it for short range target shooting (50-200yds) and hunting.

What are the mechanical differences in the two rifles?  Which is inherently stronger, more accurate, etc?  I understand how the high wall action functions but not the Sharps (I have never held one).  Which would be more accurate?

Do the Italian brands have good reputations and quality (Uberti, Pedersoli)?

What is the difference between a "Creedmore" sight and a "Lyman" tang sight? Are the tang sights used more for the long range shooting appllcations while the buck-horn sights for shorter range?

How do you grip the rifle with a tang sight mounted?  Dosen't it get in the way of your hand?

If you decide to use modern smokeless powder cartridges instead of BP, what power level will the rifles handle?  Level 1, 2, or 3?

Sorry for the myriad of questions but I figured this would be a good place to get some info.

Thanks to anyone who is willing to take the time and answer my questions.

If there is a web-site devoted to this topic, please pass that on as well.

Matt

[sharps4590]

I have two Shiloh Sharps 1874's and used to have three.  I prefer them to the highwall but the high wall is the stronger of the two actions.  There are those who concern themselves over the big side hammer of the Sharps torquing, twisting to the right, when the hammer falls but this has never been an issue for me.  I prefer the Sharps because they actually were the rifle used by the buffalo runner.  The high wall came along too late.

The Sharps is a falling block, similar to the high wall, except that the frame/receiver isn't as beefy as the highwall.  The block of a Sharps also operates in two mortises cut into the frame.  I believe the highwall merely slides between a slot in the frame.  I owned a Browning high wall for a period of time but it never piqued my fancy like the Sharps do.  You pull down on the trigger guard of the Sharps to drop the breech block, insert cartridge then pull the trigger guard up to close the breech.  Very simple action.

As with most rifles how accurate they are depends on the shooter and load.  In my opinion, generally one is as accurate as the other.  Having said that all three of my Shiloh's shot to a little different level of accuracy but I never worked up a target load for one of them so I don't know what it's truly capable of.  In 45-2.4 it's one whale of a hunting rifle and more than accurate out to 200 yards which is far as I'd dare to shoot at game because of the sight adjustment that is necessary to bring the rifle on at 200.

I don't know anything abut the Uberti Sharps and indeed didn't know they made one.  All I've heard about the later Pedersoli's has been good....but they ain't a Shiloh.

Creedmore is kind of a generic name for a tang sight which may be medium or long range.  Generally it has elevation adjustments in 1/50 of an inch and windage adjustments either on the eye cup or on the base as  in a Soule sight.  The Soule is generally believed to be the better of the two styles.  My long range sight adjusts windage on the eye cup and I have on occasion ran out of windage.  Lyman is, or used to be, a manufacturer of several different styles of tang sights so a Lyman sight isn't of one particular kind.  It's merely manufacturered or marketed by Lyman.

If a tang sight is installed in the proper location it is of no consequence regarding grip placement.  I use a Browning tang sight off their BPC Hunter modified to fit my Shiloh's without drilling or changing any holes in the tang of the rifle.  It's right where it needs to be for hunting and doesn't interfere with my grip in the least.  My target sights are MVA, both front and rear, (the front is a spirit level with windage....that's what I do when I run out of windage at the rear sight), and they're in exactly the right place also.

As many years as I've been reloading, 40+, I don't recall using the terms Level 1, 2, or 3.  Assuming Level 1 being the lowest I believe the Sharps would generally be in that group.  The high wall at least 2 and quite possibly 3.  They've been rechambered to nearly every cartridge known to man since the late 1800's.

There's my opinion.....I hope you get others and no doubt you will.  The high wall is a very good rifle....so is the Sharps.   You have a pleasant decision before you!

Vic

[fortress49]

Thanks for the reply.  It really helps...

Level 1, 2, and 3 refer to the "power" levels.  It allows you to distinguish between what gun and type of gun you will shoot it in.

Level 1 is the "weakest".  You would use this on Trapdoor type rifles.

Level 2, and 3 have more powder, greater velocity, etc and should not be used in Trapdoor type rifles.  Level 2 is good in Marlin lever rifles like the 1895 guide gun.

Level 3 which has the highest power rating, should be saved for very strong actions such as the Ruger #1 (which is a high wall I believe).

Matt

[sharps4590]

I assumed that was about the level's you were talking about.  The Sharps could fall into the lower reaches of level 2 but I wouldn't push it.  They're certainly stronger than the trapdoor but they definitely aren't up with the '86 Winchester or the Marlin 1895 and it's offspring.

The Ruger # 1 isn't a High Wall or based on the John Browing design.  It's of British influence and generally based on the Farqharson design of the late 1800's.  Until a year ago # 1's were my second favorite rifles.  I still admire them very much and if funds were unlimited I would have kept them.  I had them in several different calibers from 22-250 to 375 H&H.  Grand rifles!!  I sold them all  in the last year and have acquired some rather nice American Longrifles in their place.  Tastes change as we age.

Vic

[zrifleman]

According to Kirk at Shiloh Sharps their rifle will handle Ruger #1 power level loads. This puts them in the upper level as far as strength. The original 1874 Sharps should be limited to BP level pressures 20,000-25,000 psi. Pedersoli is the best of the Italian reproductions but does not by any means match the quality and strength of Shiloh. Sharps 74 wins more than it's share of matches against hiwalls. Shiloh Sharps is easy to disassemble and clean or repair---not so with hiwalls. Buy a Shiloh Sharps and never have to bow your head, feel regret or look back.

[sharps4590]

zrifleman.....interesting about the power level capabilities of the Shiloh Sharps.  I'd never heard that and I've talked to the folks at Shiloh several times over the last 15+ years.  But, I've never asked that question either.  They are certainly above the strength of the originals!!!

I agree 100% with your opinion of the Shiloh Sharps over the high wall and as compared to the Italian copies.  

Matt, if you can swing it, get a Shiloh.  You won't regret it.

Vic

[A Buff]

friend,romans lend me your ear.
                                                 I was an avid sharps fan and worshiper of the Montana gun makers,but, my wallet was not! I bought an Italian 1885 45-70 highwall (Uberti) and have fallen in love.  After research and observation plunked down $837 (tot. tax included,backround also) and have not looked back! This gun shoots like a wet dream! the only thing left is to settle on a sight . I also looked at the weight of the Sharps ,to pack one takes a mule!

[sharps4590]

Reckon that makes me a mule.  I packed one, a Montana Roughrider in 45-90, thru the Salt River Range and the Wyoming Range in NW Wyoming and the Caribou's in SE Idaho for 3 years.  I didn't have any problems.

The high walls are a fine rifle.  As much as I prefer the Sharps I dare say the high wall, next to the Farquharson and it's progeny the Ruger # 1, it is the best.

Vic

[45454]

All of you answered my question.
An Uberti highwall,is next for 2007,in 45-70.
I,too, have an NEF Handirifle in 45-70.
Thanks  

[longcaribiner]

Everything said above is good to consider.   I have an original hi wall and it is great.  I also have a Garret Arms Sharps in 50-70, made in Italy 25 yrs ago, trapdoors, Sniders, Martinis and al dozen original rolling blocks in various calibers.   The one I take hunting and shoot for fun and for uninvited fourlegged guests here at the farm,,,,,,, an old H & R Shikari in 45-70.     There is nothing "untraditional" about the NEF, Break opens were used in the west, just in lesser numbers.  The Wesson in 44-100 was a formidable rifle as were the Wurflein break opens made in Phila.   I have a Wesson in 38 Extra long.  a very good 100 yd target gun.  I also have a Wurflein with double set triggers. (very rare)   There were other makes of break opens made as well, Stevens for one.       Check the design of the Wurfleins and you'll see they are very similar to the NEF.      Despite everything, Sharps has the name associated with the Buffalo hunters.   Many of whom actually used 50-70's and muzzleloaders.   The amount of hype and legend vs actual historical use is something else again.    The break open rifle had about as much sex appeal as the break open single shot shot gun does today.  It was "no bones, nuthin fancy, work horse."

[apache235]

You could always resolve the problem by buying one of each  .  I have a C.Sharps Hi Wall in 40-70 and a Shiloh Sharps in .45-90 on order (for next summer maybe).  If you get the Shiloh, you will have plenty of time to pay for it

[handirifle]

Everything said above is good to consider.   I have an original hi wall and it is great.  I also have a Garret Arms Sharps in 50-70, made in Italy 25 yrs ago, trapdoors, Sniders, Martinis and al dozen original rolling blocks in various calibers.   The one I take hunting and shoot for fun and for uninvited fourlegged guests here at the farm,,,,,,, an old H & R Shikari in 45-70.     There is nothing "untraditional" about the NEF, Break opens were used in the west, just in lesser numbers.  The Wesson in 44-100 was a formidable rifle as were the Wurflein break opens made in Phila.   I have a Wesson in 38 Extra long.  a very good 100 yd target gun.  I also have a Wurflein with double set triggers. (very rare)   There were other makes of break opens made as well, Stevens for one.       Check the design of the Wurfleins and you'll see they are very similar to the NEF.      Despite everything, Sharps has the name associated with the Buffalo hunters.   Many of whom actually used 50-70's and muzzleloaders.   The amount of hype and legend vs actual historical use is something else again.    The break open rifle had about as much sex appeal as the break open single shot shot gun does today.  It was "no bones, nuthin fancy, work horse."

Was browsing through some old posts and got to wondering.  The Wesson 44-100, how close is it to the 444 marlin, as far as dimensions go?  I have an H&R in 38-55 but was thinking of adding a 444 barrel and using BP in it also.