Rebarreling a Lee Enfield to ???

[RaySendero]

What are my options and What is the best parent case to use when rebarreling a Lee Enfield.?

The specs I find on the .303 are:
Case head diameter = 0.540",
Rim thickness = 0.064",
Case diameter inside of rim = 0.460"
and COL = 3.075"

I will reload only so can do proper pressure regardless of case; Don't want to do much if any bolt face/extractor work; Need to keep magazine to original length.

Thanks in advance for your help!

[gunnut69]

I've seen them converted to 45/70, so several caliber choices pop up there. Of course there are many wildcats based on the 303 case in various calibers and base-tp-shoulder lengths..  The 45/70 tyoe convertions require changing the mag to a single column but it's not to bad a job.. As a bonus the 45/70 operates at a safe pressure level.. and  factory ammo is readily available.

[iiranger]

If you compare the .303 Brit case to the .30/40 Krag case you will fine about $0.10 worth of difference. In Canada, Mr. Epps, for one, did alot of modifying the .303 case (and rifles therefore) with factory taper and with an "improved shape" to calibers between .22 and .35, I think, .33 for sure. I can never remember the gun shop address, but it is on a link from .303british.com by mr. Redgwell. Obviously, the Smelly loads cannot equal the P14 loads, but respectable to say the least. Mr. R covers both on his web site.

Mr. Ackley included this information in his 2 volume set of books available from eabco.com, Sinclair, ebay sometimes, ... Mr. Epps is mainly in vol. 2.

In the US the widely available case (for single shots especially) was the .30/40 Krag.. Mil surplus. CHEEP!. It, too, has been taken eveywhere. Mr. A wrote that the .30/40 Improved (in an appropriate rifle, NOT  a Krag, P14 for instance) would equal FACTORY .300 H&H loads. (The H&H were not loaded hot for use in places expected to be HOT, like Africa, India, etc...) And the .25 Krag full length (he also shortened it like the .219 Don Wasp on the .219 Zipper) was the same capacity as the .257 Remington Roberts Ackley Improved. Supposedly the best all around cartridge for the .25 bore... .25/303 Imp would be about equal. Might want to hold back pressure in a Smelly.

And this is a bit sturdier case than the .45/70. The .40/65 is on the .45/70 rim as is the .38/56 (not .38/55 on .30/30 case). .38/56 Improved is quite a thumper. .348 is on the .50/70 rim, slightly larger. A well respected "thumper" from the Yukon/Alaska area and for lever action pressures that should be no problem for the Smelly. Feeding? Don't know. .348 was expanded to .40, .41, .458 and .50 and called "Alaskan." Wildcats, so pressure up to loader. luck.

[RaySendero]

WElll,... What you want to shoot at? 

iiranger,

Good question! I like the action but, I have to admit, I really haven't given it much thought. I'm just in the planning stage for this project. It came about yesterday when a friend at work showed me a No.4 MKII he has coming. Neither he nor I have any real spot (need) for another 30 caliber rifle deer rifle. He wanted me to help him with the project planning, stock work and bedding.

I suggested that I could get one too. Then he and I could build them together. If he was willing to wait until I finished the 2 projects I'm currently doing.

We have a great local GS that we both use. He talked generally about going up in caliber as that would best fit his "needs". He's leaning toward a 45/70 - However, I'm open to all suggestions at this point, up or down in caliber.  Some that interest me are: XXX, XXX, & XXX.... but I'll save that thought so as not to bias any ones suggestions at this point.

[gunnut69]

I'd go with the 40-65 or one of the other 40 calibers. They are nearly all big enough for most currently living beasts but are unique and recoil a bit less than the the 45-70. The 40-65 has the advantage of easy to get brass. I'd suggest a mold, dies and reload with lead bullets. If your not into loading proper bullets are available from custom casters.

[Nobade]

I like the 40-65 idea! I have one a fellow gave me that is in terrible shape. I was trying to decide what to do with it, and 38-55 kept coming to mind. The extractor will even grab a 38 special case, so I've got lots of leeway on what to do. Might even make it a smokeless powder muzzleloader using cartridge cases to carry the primer. No telling what this thing will become!

[iiranger]

Getting old. Forgot the most obvious. .405 Winchester. Winchester brought this out on the case, with .303/.30/40 rim and a bit longer. There was a version, also, in .358 that went "no where" fast. Hot by current standards, THEN, circa 45K CUP. (In Win 95 lever action among others). T. Roosevelt loved it in Africa--lions I think, but then he was a promoter (politician/blow hard/etc.)...

As I recall the load manual, you could make cases blowing .303 out straight, but a bit short. Not crimp super wellllll... So single load...

b). If you want to go this way, and don't have the gun, LOOK at a P14 first. Win, Rem, and Eddystone (PA) of Rem built them for Great Britain pre WW I. Copied the Mauser. Front Locking lugs. HEAVY. In a P14, the .303 equals the .308 without breathing hard... Uncle Sam had them made in .30/'06 as M17 Enfield and these cost alot more. P14's are the "red headed" step child and often inexpensive in USA... If you want a BOOMER/THUMPER, Mr. Weatherby, alledgedly, developed his line on this action, up to the .375 Weatherby mag. (No .378/.460 case yet...) There the weight helps IMHO. enjoy... (.45/70 cases are not the strongest. I put .303 as much stronger, at least, more brass in the "head.") luck

WElll,... What you want to shoot at? 

iiranger,

Good question! I like the action but, I have to admit, I really haven't given it much thought. I'm just in the planning stage for this project. It came about yesterday when a friend at work showed me a No.4 MKII he has coming. Neither he nor I have any real spot (need) for another 30 caliber rifle deer rifle. He wanted me to help him with the project planning, stock work and bedding.

I suggested that I could get one too. Then he and I could build them together. If he was willing to wait until I finished the 2 projects I'm currently doing.

We have a great local GS that we both use. He talked generally about going up in caliber as that would best fit his "needs". He's leaning toward a 45/70 - However, I'm open to all suggestions at this point, up or down in caliber.  Some that interest me are: XXX, XXX, & XXX.... but I'll save that thought so as not to bias any ones suggestions at this point.

[Tom H.]

I did a conversion to 45-70 a number of years ago. In order to make the 45 feed, the front receiver ring needs to be relieved on the inside very slightly. This lead to a problem with bolt flex when my loads went above anything similar to low powered factory stuff (by velocity).  Also the magazine conversion was interesting to say the least.
It is not an easy job by any stretch.
My advice there is to find a magazine that works with the rounds that you are using and fit the rifle to it.
There are far better (by terms of ease in conversion, not quality) actions to work with.

The original gun was broken down and parted out.  The barrel is waiting to be put onto a Martini as they have the same thread.

Good luck.

Tom

[RaySendero]

Thanks guys for your input - Keep it coming!!!!

Some very good points (and potiential land mines) here.  I'm doing my research on this project and will post a summary for all to critique.  I've e-mailed Steve Redgwell at steve@303british.com.   His name and Edward Epps name keep poping-up as experts on this subject.  I've invited Steve to post on this thread.  If he does please help him to feel right at home.   Have not been able to track down Epps - Any help here would be appreciated.

[iiranger]

Mr. Redgwell told me years back that Mr. Elwood Epps, the father and co-conspirator with Mr. Ackley, was no longer with us, but the sons had taken over the "gun shop." Edward? One of "the boys?" Regardless, the Epps gun shop/web site is "linked" to Mr. Redgwell's web site and you should be able to reach it from there. I have fairly recently. In addition, there are a couple dozen more gun shops in that part of Canada, many of which, I would guess, might be on the path Mr. Epps started... luck.

[gunnut69]

All watching should note that shipping a weapon to Canada is not to be lightly undertaken. Most especially ANY sort of military weapon!!! I'm unsure of the Canadian regs but the US regs per BATFE are atrocious,.. I bought a '94 winchester from a gentleman in Canada and it took over 6 months to get the rifle here! The BATFE agent at first refused the paper work as she said importing 'military' weapons is not allowed!! She was upset when we pointed the '94 winchester was a lever action hunting rifle originally made in this country. Perhaps here ignorance being pointed out to her added to the time it took but I seriously doubt it.

[RaySendero]

All watching should note that shipping a weapon to Canada is not to be lightly undertaken. Most especially ANY sort of military weapon!!! I'm unsure of the Canadian regs but the US regs per BATFE are atrocious,.. I bought a '94 winchester from a gentleman in Canada and it took over 6 months to get the rifle here! The BATFE agent at first refused the paper work as she said importing 'military' weapons is not allowed!! She was upset when we pointed the '94 winchester was a lever action hunting rifle originally made in this country. Perhaps here ignorance being pointed out to her added to the time it took but I seriously doubt it.

gn,

Thanks for warning but I have a local GS picked out to do my work and have no plans to send rifle to Canada.  Was just asking for some expert advice from our northern friends.

[kyelkhunter3006]

A little off topic concerning the rifle, this is more about the .303 round.  In an old issue of RIFLE, I think it was the "Ken Waters Favorite Rifles" column, he wrote about an old Mauser sporter that one of the British companies had offered in .303.  The bore was totally shot, but he didn't want to ruin the classic status of the rifle by rebarreling.  So he had the barrel re-bored to .338 caliber.  He just necked up the .303 case to .338.  I want to say (don't quote me!) that he was getting around 2200-2300 fps with 200 or 225 grain bullets.  He called the round a great close range big game round, suitable for bears, elk, etc.  I'm in the process of moving right now, I'll have to see if I have packed that issue yet.  Maybe the easiest thing to do would just be getting your rifle re-bored to a larger caliber??

[RaySendero]

303 British for reference:
Case Head Diameter = 0.540”,
Cartridge Overall Length = 3.075”


Here’s a summary so far:

1) Possible Epps wildcats – 303, and 35/303

2) Nostalgia Cartridges - CHD - COL

• 348 Win. - 0.610” - 2.795”
• 375-2 &1/2” - 0.540” - ?
• 405 Win. - 0.540" - 3.145"
• 40-50 Sharps Str. - ? - ? (1.875" case)
• 40-60 Maynard - ? - ? (2.20" case)
• 40-65 WCF - 0.605” - ?
• 40-70 Sharps Str. - 0.540" - ? (2.5" case)
• 40-82 WCF - 0.605” - ?
• 50-90 Sharps - 0.665” - 3.062”

3) Useful/Still Alive - CHD - COL

• 7.62x54R - ? - ?
• 444 Marlin - 0.514” - 2.57”
• 45-70 Govt. - 0.608” - 2.55”

4) Modern Cartridges - CHD - COL

• 375 JDJ - ? - ?
• 450 Marlin - 0.532” - 2.53”
• 350 Rem. Mag. - 0.532” - 2.80”
• 358 Norma Mag. - 0.532” - 3.27”
• 338 Win. Mag. - 0.532” - 3.40”
• 458 Win. Mag. - 0.532” - 3.40”

Any help filling in the cartridge dimension blanks or any more options will be appreciated.

[RaySendero]

btt.........