Life with a troublesome Rock River target .45

[Questor]

Like my thread on a year with the excellent .22 Marvel conversion unit, this will be a thread on my life with an unreliable and difficult Rock River 45 1911 bullseye gun.  This story will be on-going until I get the thing satisfactorily fixed.

Installment 1:
I've had this safe queen for a few years now and it's just been unreliable and a hassle to own. I really can't use it in competion because when I shoot, I think more about whether it will feed or eject than anything else. Here's some history:

1) The gun is the now-defunct long-slide 6" barrelled model of the Rock River bullseye gun.  Terrific accuracy guarantee (1.5" at 50 yards), but you pay for it by having an ammo-finicky gun that's got some construction hassles that make it difficult to perform routine cleaning on.

2) After going nuts trying to get it to function reliably I gave up and sent it back to Rock River for correction. They said they fired it 350 times and it was perfectly reliable with Federal jacketed match ammo, which is too expensive for me to shoot with. After some experimentation, I found that I could get it reliable by using only Remington brass, and a significantly shorter than normal OAL.  I’m using standard bullseye loads using 200 grain cast SWCs and about 4 grains of Bullseye powder.

3) Using a plastic Wilson or Brownells bushing wrench doesn’t work. The wrench breaks. I need to use a metal wrench.

4) A threaded rod runs through the recoil spring. This is a hassle to install and remove, but has an advantage when contemplating the use of a .22 conversion unit like the Marvel. The slide can be removed as a unit, instead of the slide, barrel, spring, and guide being removed and stored separately. For cleaning, however, it’s a nuisance.

To take the top-end apart, you unthread and remove the rod that runs through the recoil spring, then turn the bushing for removal, then tap the chamber end of the barrel with a dowel and plastic mallet to push the bushing out of the slide.

Reinstalling the recoil spring is opposite what you may be used to. The end with the two tight coils goes toward the muzzle instead of toward the chamber. If you put them toward the chamber, then the gun does not function reliably and the slide returns to position slower than it should. Apparently there’s some binding involved. It would have been nice if Rock River had included instructions for performing routine maintenance.

Reinstalling the slide requires the use of a Brownell’s plunger tool. It cannot be reinstalled without such a tool.  I called Rock River about this and they said they use a longer-than-standard plunger, but couldn’t explain why, except that it’s because they needed to. I tried a standard length plunger and it still needs the tool for reassembly.

5) Back to ammo. It is absolutely necessary to drop each round into the chamber as part of the reloading process. This means removing the barrel from the gun, taking each finished round, and dropping it into the chamber.  Any imperfections like gobs of bullet wax or a long case, or a smear of lead on the case from a bad resizing job will cause the round to fail to chamber.

Currently, I’m in the process of verifying the true reliability of my Remington-brassed rounds, which of course takes a while because only thousands of rounds will prove it to me.

6) What’s a shooter to do? Well, one option on the table is to send it to a good bullseye gunsmith for rework. This seems like a very probable scenario. I really don’t want to increase my handloading time by testing each round, or jumping through hoops for routine maintenance.

I had a bad experience with Clark Custom Guns in the way of customer service and finishing several years ago, but I must give them credit for doing a good job on the gunsmithing. That Clark as been reliable, accurate, and easy to maintain. My opinion of Rock River is that they build the guns but don’t really know what a bullseye shooter needs, so I don’t think I’ll be going back to them either for repairs or for other guns.

7) Next installment is on tuning my ammo construction process to get reliable ammo that doesn’t require chamber testing before use. Is it possible? We’ll have to wait and see.

[Lloyd Smale]

Id consider having a smith run a chamber reamer in it. It sounds like its a tad short throated. Ive had two springfields come that way and after a trip back and a reaming they ran fine. Problem is that i dont know if the increased tolarances are going to effect your accuracy in it and in bullseye that matters.

[Mikey]

Questor:  I would either go with Lloyd's suggestion or just get yourself a new 6" target barrel and bushing.  I know they are made - I often see adds for them in the Shogun Blues.  Clarke still makes 6" target tubes for the 45 doesn't he................... Mikey.

[rbwillnj]

Questor,

I recently had a wad gun built by a local gunsmith, and I couldn't be more happy with the results.   It shoots an inch and a quarter group at 50 yards.   My gunsmith always uses a two piece guide rod, and he explained why.

Most of the accuracy of a good bullseye gun comes from the barrel to slide, and the barrel to bushing fit.  A much smaller percent of the accuracy comes from the slide to frame fit, but thats certianly part of a full accuracy package.   Anyway, because the bushing to barrel fit is so precise, the slide should be pulled back about an inch before the bushing is rotated for removal.  Obviously, this can't be done if you have a one piece guide rod that are so common on production guns these days.   With the two piece guide rod you can unscrew the end of the guide rod and remove it, than pull the slide back about an inch, rotate the bushing and dissassemble the gun.  If you rotate the bushing while the slide is fully locked up, you will ruin the barrel to bushing fit.

Of course this only applys to fully accurized bullseye gun.  Don't worry about rotating the bushing on your Kimber or Springfield.

By the way,  my gun was so tight that I had to put close to a thousand rounds through it before it would funtion reliably.   I have never owned a Rock River, but its common for fully accurized bullseye guns to be so tight that they require a break in period.

Another thought for you.    I had some reliabilty issues with my Clark 38 Special 1911.   I bought a spring package from Wolf that gave me recoil springs ranging from 5lbs to 22lbs in one pound increments.   I just started swapping springs until I found one that worked, and haven't had a problem since.     For Bullseye, (in my opinion) I think you need to find a load that gives you the best group with that particular gun, then tune the gun so it will work with that load.  That's whats worked for me.

[Questor]

Rbwillnj:

Thank you for the thoughtful and informative post. I appreciate it. I didn't know why they used a 2-piece rod, and didn't know about moving the slide back. I am coming around to the notion that I just need to tune my ammo and probably stick with just one brand of brass for that gun.

My last trip to the range gave me one failure to feed, and the dimensions of the case seemed OK, except that it was a little stout behind the crimp. That's one out of 150 rounds using mixed brass with ammo that has been test dropped into the chamber before going shooting. I must have made a mistake somewhere with that one.

[Broom Rider]

My RRA doesn't like lead bullets and quickly gets into it's routine of not fully chambering them unless I push on the end of the slide each time. It was suggested that the chamber needs to be looked at.
Instead of tapping on the barrel to remove the bushing, either hold it by the barrel feet or the front of the barrel and just tap the bushing out.
Mine came with the 2 piece rod which I replaced with a Dawson tool less FLGR. Mine is a 5" and I don't know if they make it in 6" but it sure makes take down easy.
Good luck. I sort of gave up on mine and bought a Les Baer which runs very well. 100% so far.

[Questor]

Thanks Broomrider. It seems as though the problems with your RR is identical to mine. When I sent mine back they used jacketed test loads to determine that it was reliable. Seems ridiculous because cast bullets are standard bullseye ammo. I can see using jacketed for accuracy tests, but not for reliability tests. I called RR today to ask whether they will modify the chamber, but, as usual, their pistol person was unavailable.

In my opinion, a competition gun that isn't reliable is worthless. I just decided to give mine another chance, but it's proving to be so much of a hassle that I think the only real option is to send it to a real bullseye gunsmith to get it fixed.

[Questor]

By the way, Broomrider, I'll post my results with the Remington brass and my other experiments. So keep checking in. I may find something you can use to redeem your Rock River Arms 1911.

[Lloyd Smale]

ive tried flgr in many of my 45s and have never seen enough differnce in accuacy on paper with them to justify them. Lynnie its nice to see you post here. For you boys that doubt this womens knowlege. Dont!! Shed put about all of us to shame with her knowlege on 1911s and handgun shooting.

[Questor]

Final installment:

I have solved this problem to my satisfaction. The key was in load development. The following load has been entirely reliable for over 1,500 rounds and that is proof enough for me:

Cartridge is a very accurate 45acp bullseye target load:
Remington R-P headstamp brass. This is very important.
Commercially cast 200 grain SWC, standard bullseye design
4.0 grains Bullseye powder
Winchester WLP primer
Generous bell with expander die: 0.482"
Shorter than standard OAL: 1.235"
Tight crimp: 0.466"

I have tried a couple of variations on this that are based on mixed brass.
Variation 1: Same load except mixed brass. Results are that it is almost 100 percent reliable. The exceptions have been odd-ball brass with headstamps  I do not recognize. This brass was all picked up over time at various ranges.

Variation 2: Same load, except 200 grain Star swaged SWC. Same results as variation 1. Star swaged bullets are no longer made, but I have many on-hand that need to be used up.

Conclusions: The breakthrough was finding that Remington brass gave me reliable loads, and then I worked from there. I think another brand of brass would work fine, if it were the right brand, but I am not inclined to experiment further. Various lots of Remington were  represented in the sample. 500 new Remington cases were used too. Some Remington nickle plated brass was used.

The result is that I now have complete confidence in the Rock River and I am happy using it. My loads for mixed brass are fine for practice because I can tolerate an occasional feeding problem. I can use the Remingtons for matches. That's a reasonable compromise.  If I were to cull my mixed brass to eliminate all but the major brands of brass I think I might get 100% reliability from it.

[Broom Rider]

What was said about the necessity for the 2 piece FLGR and pulling the slide back a bit before turning the bushing is correct. I got tired of my 2 piece FLGR coming loose and just didn't like it in general so I changed to a different kind of FLGR. I got a Dawson Precision tool-less FLGR. Now I can do a take down and my arthritis never has to deal with the recoil spring. (until change out time arrives.) I use them in several of my guns.


I don't know if they make it in 6", but if I had a 6" 1911 I'd ask them to make me one.

[rbwillnj]

A friend of mine just purchased (after a five month wait) a Rock River Wadcutter gun with a slide mount.   Until he gets set up for reloading, I have been loading all of his ammo.   I have been using Winchester or Federal cases with 3.9 grains of Bullseye, and a 200 grain Lyman 452630 sized to .452.  My taper crimp measures about .468".   I always leave a little of the lead shoulder exposed above the mouth of the case.  I load everything with a Star Reloader.  The gun has functioned flawlessly right from the start with this ammo.

I agree that Kart barrels seem to have a tighter chamber than those found on production guns.  This can result in problems when lead builds up in the chamber.   Bullseye loads being on the light side often do not expand the brass enough to seal the chamber.  In my experience, this leads to lead build up in the chamber, and if not removed periodically will result in jams when the cartridge hangs up on the lead deposits and the gun doesn't go fully into battery.    I use a Wilson chamber brush to scrub out the chamber each time I clean the gun, and that has prevented the problem

[rbwillnj]

PS, I ordered one of those guide rods.  Expensive, but looks like its just the ticket.  The two piece rods are a PITB.

[Questor]

I've only had the chamber plating with swaged bullets, never with hard cast bullets. It was a real problem with my Pardini so I had to quit using swaged bullets for that gun.

I used to hate the multi-piece guide rod because I would spend so much time fumbling with it, but I've gotten adept at dealing with it so it's no longer a nuisance. Unless I really tighten it firmly, it will loosen during the course of a couple of hundred shots. This reminds me to try a little blue loc-tite on it.

All in all, my conclusion from using various target guns is that the makers each have their opinions about what constitutes the best gun, and we seem to have to adapt to that vision.

The Pardini likes the bullets to be loaded with a longer OAL than standard, the Rock River likes them shorter, and the Clark likes them standard.

[Jim Stacy]

I have a 6" Springfield Target and it is a great shooting gun but 4.5BE/200 Hard cast is as light of a load as it will function, everything else does not have enough recoil impulse to make it work. I have tried different springs and if you get light enough for 4.0 BE to work the slide the return is not brisk enough to pick up a round and chamber reliably. Great gun extremely accurate but started out very tight and a 1000 rounds later still tight. With full power spring it is a great shooting and functioning gun and very accurate. The heavy slide has it up side and down side I guess. Sounds like your is some what alike. Taper crimps help also but on most of my 45's as slide speed goes down on the return travel the OAL becomes critical. Have a Gold Cup that will function fine or fail to feed on .005 difference in load length .

[rbwillnj]

Well I did order one of those Dawson Precision Guide Rods, but two weeks later I still haven't received it.   I called DP and they said it has been "temporarily discontinued"?   Thanks for letting me know DP.

[Lloyd Smale]

two more things you might want to try if reliabilty problems crop up again is  buying an inexpesive lee sizer in 451 and sizing your bullets to that size. Test first to see if it affects accuracy in your gun. Another is to run all your loaded rounds through a lee factrory crimp die. It will iron out the sides of the case and will make them feed better in a tight gun. If your having problems with brass other the rem what i would do is measure the lenght of the rem brass and trim the rest of it to the same lenght. Also problems in a finky (tight) gun can come from using once fired brass from anohter gun. Sizer dies dont size the base area of a case. Try buying new brass and keeping it dedicated to that gun.

[Broom Rider]

Sorry to hear they discontinued their nifty guide rod. I could still put a few more of them to good use.
I guess the old fashioned to have the same thing is to drill a hole through a regular one piece full length rod and then put a small piece of metal such as a bent paper clip through the hole to catch the spring plug so the same effect will be realized. I guess that's what I'll have to do now.